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Post by laughter on Nov 24, 2022 18:21:44 GMT -5
First off, Rupert is talking about deliberate creation (i.e. how do I manifest my desires? aka where's my stuff?), not LOA (i.e. that which is like unto itself is drawn).  .. on a more serious note, it seems to me most people miss this distinction as rather subtle, despite the care you always take to make it. |
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Post by lolly on Nov 25, 2022 21:35:39 GMT -5
Without over thinking it, you set a desired goal which you think is attainable and realistic in the imagination, and then do what is necessary to make it happen. Then you can cultivate personal qualities like persistence, perseverance, determination, patience and become more confident and resilient as a person. If you want to talk 'magic Secret',Ok fine, but if you want it to work, see above.
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Post by inavalan on Nov 25, 2022 21:52:20 GMT -5
Without over thinking it, you set a desired goal which you think is attainable and realistic in the imagination, and then do what is necessary to make it happen. Then you can cultivate personal qualities like persistence, perseverance, determination, patience and become more confident and resilient as a person. If you want to talk 'magic Secret',Ok fine, but if you want it to work, see above. Think "placebo" and "nocebo". They work on everything, not only with sickness and medicines. |
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Post by lolly on Nov 26, 2022 0:53:48 GMT -5
Without over thinking it, you set a desired goal which you think is attainable and realistic in the imagination, and then do what is necessary to make it happen. Then you can cultivate personal qualities like persistence, perseverance, determination, patience and become more confident and resilient as a person. If you want to talk 'magic Secret',Ok fine, but if you want it to work, see above. Think "placebo" and "nocebo". They work on everything, not only with sickness and medicines. Vague enough that I can't tell if it's leaning toward magical thinking, but I think the relevant key words in this context of the materially inexplicable are those I underlined above. |
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Post by inavalan on Nov 26, 2022 1:41:41 GMT -5
Without over thinking it, you set a desired goal which you think is attainable and realistic in the imagination, and then do what is necessary to make it happen. Then you can cultivate personal qualities like persistence, perseverance, determination, patience and become more confident and resilient as a person. If you want to talk 'magic Secret',Ok fine, but if you want it to work, see above. Think "placebo" and "nocebo". They work on everything, not only with sickness and medicines. Vague enough that I can't tell if it's leaning toward magical thinking, but I think the relevant key words in this context of the materially inexplicable are those I underlined above. Leaving aside why and how they work, placebo / nocebo have been documented, and are taken seriously by health people (providers, industry, scientists, ...). "Magic" means "inexplicable" with the current widely accepted knowledge. At individual or mass level, one's magic can be another's ordinary, logic, obvious. If one believes in slogans like "no pain, no gain", or "life is suffering", ... then he'll find out that he believes right. The same happens to those who believe the opposite: they find out that they are right about that. I'm talking here about truly believing, conscious and unconscious, not affirmations or wishful thinking. These seem statistical effects and events, but they aren't random. They depend on the observer's personality profile. "you think is attainable and realistic" and "confident" result from your beliefs. |
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Post by lolly on Nov 26, 2022 3:06:40 GMT -5
Vague enough that I can't tell if it's leaning toward magical thinking, but I think the relevant key words in this context of the materially inexplicable are those I underlined above. Leaving aside why and how they work, placebo / nocebo have been documented, and are taken seriously by health people (providers, industry, scientists, ...). "Magic" means "inexplicable" with the current widely accepted knowledge. At individual or mass level, one's magic can be another's ordinary, logic, obvious. If one believes in slogans like "no pain, no gain", or "life is suffering", ... then he'll find out that he believes right. The same happens to those who believe the opposite: they find out that they are right about that. I'm talking here about truly believing, conscious and unconscious, not affirmations or wishful thinking. These seem statistical effects and events, but they aren't random. They depend on the observer's personality profile. "you think is attainable and realistic" and "confident" result from your beliefs. First you make a vague reference to placebo, and I figure it must allude a psychological element, so I pointed out how I mentioned psychological elements already, but specific elements rather than a vague generalisation. Then, ironically, you start explaining placebo/nocebo to me (giggles)
Magical thinking is whimsical jibber-jabber and vague ambiguity. You can believe totally deluded rot which will never work, but we don't know exactly how nature works, so if you believe things that aren't true they'll just turn out to be wrong. I understand it's convenient to omit things like trial and error, or you can't reach the summit without a bit of pain, and if people believe this it's fine because they'll find out for themselves upon climbing the thing.
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Post by inavalan on Nov 26, 2022 3:27:16 GMT -5
Leaving aside why and how they work, placebo / nocebo have been documented, and are taken seriously by health people (providers, industry, scientists, ...). "Magic" means "inexplicable" with the current widely accepted knowledge. At individual or mass level, one's magic can be another's ordinary, logic, obvious. If one believes in slogans like "no pain, no gain", or "life is suffering", ... then he'll find out that he believes right. The same happens to those who believe the opposite: they find out that they are right about that. I'm talking here about truly believing, conscious and unconscious, not affirmations or wishful thinking. These seem statistical effects and events, but they aren't random. They depend on the observer's personality profile. "you think is attainable and realistic" and "confident" result from your beliefs. First you make a vague reference to placebo, and I figure it must allude a psychological element, so I pointed out how I mentioned psychological elements already, but specific elements rather than a vague generalisation. Then, ironically, you start explaining placebo/nocebo to me (giggles)
Magical thinking is whimsical jibber-jabber and vague ambiguity. You can believe totally deluded rot which will never work, but we don't know exactly nature works, so if you believe things that aren't true they'll just turn out to be wrong. I understand it's convenient to omit things like trial and error, or you can't reach the summit without a bit of pain, and if people believe this it's fine because they'll find out for themselves upon climbing the thing.
My reply to you was well meant. Placebo is a well known example where personal beliefs and expectations affect one's body, so mind affects matter: you get physically healed or sick, you could even die or come back from an expected death. Then, I expressed my opinion that your post's highlights point to beliefs. You disagree. That's okay. As with Gopal, I expressed opinions, with no intention to argue and prove their validity. You can only find out for yourself. Don't trust anybody else. All of us, iteratively and at different speeds, perceive a more detailed reality. It is common, but counterproductive to get defensive when faced with a different opinion. |
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Post by lolly on Nov 26, 2022 4:04:37 GMT -5
First you make a vague reference to placebo, and I figure it must allude a psychological element, so I pointed out how I mentioned psychological elements already, but specific elements rather than a vague generalisation. Then, ironically, you start explaining placebo/nocebo to me (giggles)
Magical thinking is whimsical jibber-jabber and vague ambiguity. You can believe totally deluded rot which will never work, but we don't know exactly nature works, so if you believe things that aren't true they'll just turn out to be wrong. I understand it's convenient to omit things like trial and error, or you can't reach the summit without a bit of pain, and if people believe this it's fine because they'll find out for themselves upon climbing the thing.
My reply to you was well meant. Placebo is a well known example where personal beliefs and expectations affect one's body, so affect matter: you get physically healed or sick, you could even die or come back from an expected death. Then, I expressed my opinion that your post's highlights point to beliefs. You disagree. That's okay. As with Gopal, I expressed opinions, with no intention to argue and prove their validity. You can only find out for yourself. Don't trust anybody else. All of us, iteratively and at different speeds, perceive a more detailed reality. It is common, but counterproductive to get defensive when faced with a different opinion. You didn't see what I said in the first place, and I don't mistake that for being a different opinion. I you look at what I said, the placebo thing is already accounted for in a pretty precise way, as is the belief in 'what you think is attainable and realistic'. Furthermore, it expresses how it results in the development/enhancement of personal attributes that increases the faith person has in themself. It means I agree with what you said - but that was already evident in what I initially posted.
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Post by laughter on Nov 27, 2022 14:48:36 GMT -5
Without over thinking it, you set a desired goal which you think is attainable and realistic in the imagination, and then do what is necessary to make it happen. Then you can cultivate personal qualities like persistence, perseverance, determination, patience and become more confident and resilient as a person. If you want to talk 'magic Secret',Ok fine, but if you want it to work, see above. I'll try to paraphrase reefs on loa. Reefs' says that manifestation doesn't take time. Generally speaking, people are often disappointed in the lack of manifestation, and, following loa, that's because they're not in alignment with what they want to attract. So, it occurs to me that the place for work in reefs' loa model is to bring one into alignment with a particular point of attraction. It's not the manifestation that takes time and effort, but there can be a process of alignment, and that can appear in the form of hard work. The underlying question as to whether that work is necessary or not seems to me to be equal parts tautology and existential question.  |
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Post by tenka on Nov 27, 2022 14:59:38 GMT -5
It depends on what one is required to experience and for what reason . You can sing affirmations all day long to win the lottery, but if one is required to live in poverty then nothing is going to change that .
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Post by inavalan on Nov 27, 2022 16:24:51 GMT -5
It depends on what one is required to experience and for what reason . You can sing affirmations all day long to win the lottery, but if one is required to live in poverty then nothing is going to change that . , nobody is required to "live in poverty". Poverty results ultimately from one or more liming beliefs held by the pauper, most likely unconscious beliefs that may have been unfounded and never taken care of. For example, "if one is required to live in poverty then nothing is going to change that", is a belief. When you don't like what you experience, you have to identify the beliefs that cause it. It is what to some degree psychoanalysis does, and age and past-life regression do too. Each belief once identified, and most likely seen as being unfounded, or at least unfounded anymore, can be suspended and replaced with a constructive belief. Consequently the current experience will change, and usually rapidly. If it doesn't change, there might be other beliefs that need identification, and closure. Even from the perspective that the current predicament was "selected" before birth, it was selected only to be dealt with, not to be experienced as suffering. Suffering is a symptom, not a cure. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2022 17:19:17 GMT -5
Without over thinking it, you set a desired goal which you think is attainable and realistic in the imagination, and then do what is necessary to make it happen. Then you can cultivate personal qualities like persistence, perseverance, determination, patience and become more confident and resilient as a person. If you want to talk 'magic Secret',Ok fine, but if you want it to work, see above. I'll try to paraphrase reefs on loa. Reefs' says that manifestation doesn't take time. Generally speaking, people are often disappointed in the lack of manifestation, and, following loa, that's because they're not in alignment with what they want to attract. So, it occurs to me that the place for work in reefs' loa model is to bring one into alignment with a particular point of attraction. It's not the manifestation that takes time and effort, but there can be a process of alignment, and that can appear in the form of hard work. The underlying question as to whether that work is necessary or not seems to me to be equal parts tautology and existential question. I often look at this topic from the context of athletic performance. I think Lolly is too. Athletic performance is a good dissolver of bullshit - there is a stopwatch, or a weight rack, or an opponent punching you. It's pretty simple. To be fair, I think some of the effortless / immediate manifesting ideas may apply more in other contexts. I used to swim competitively, and I grew up with a fair amount of magical thinking and used to try to Jedi-mind-trick myself into swimming faster in various ways. It did have some effect, but not much. Later I stumbled into a team that pushed me to train and endure pain way beyond what I thought I could do, and beyond what I done previously. It was then that I saw the most dramatic improvement of my life. So these discussions about "manifesting" sometimes seem suspiciously abstract and divorced from first person accounts and demonstrations. If one of you can get in a pool and swim 200 meters freestyle in 1:45, just from being in "alignment", please demonstrate. 🏊♂️ ⏱ 🙂 |
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Post by laughter on Nov 27, 2022 18:59:19 GMT -5
I'll try to paraphrase reefs on loa. Reefs' says that manifestation doesn't take time. Generally speaking, people are often disappointed in the lack of manifestation, and, following loa, that's because they're not in alignment with what they want to attract. So, it occurs to me that the place for work in reefs' loa model is to bring one into alignment with a particular point of attraction. It's not the manifestation that takes time and effort, but there can be a process of alignment, and that can appear in the form of hard work. The underlying question as to whether that work is necessary or not seems to me to be equal parts tautology and existential question. I often look at this topic from the context of athletic performance. I think Lolly is too. Athletic performance is a good dissolver of bullshit - there is a stopwatch, or a weight rack, or an opponent punching you. It's pretty simple. To be fair, I think some of the effortless / immediate manifesting ideas may apply more in other contexts. I used to swim competitively, and I grew up with a fair amount of magical thinking and used to try to Jedi-mind-trick myself into swimming faster in various ways. It did have some effect, but not much. Later I stumbled into a team that pushed me to train and endure pain way beyond what I thought I could do, and beyond what I done previously. It was then that I saw the most dramatic improvement of my life. So these discussions about "manifesting" sometimes seem suspiciously abstract and divorced from first person accounts and demonstrations. If one of you can get in a pool and swim 200 meters freestyle in 1:45, just from being in "alignment", please demonstrate. 🏊♂️ ⏱ 🙂 The tautology is: "if work is required to manifest the result, then work was required.  " The existential question is: "can a human being manifest instantaneously?"
My conditioning precludes me from arguing for magical thinking with any sincerity. |
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Post by lolly on Nov 28, 2022 8:08:08 GMT -5
Without over thinking it, you set a desired goal which you think is attainable and realistic in the imagination, and then do what is necessary to make it happen. Then you can cultivate personal qualities like persistence, perseverance, determination, patience and become more confident and resilient as a person. If you want to talk 'magic Secret',Ok fine, but if you want it to work, see above. I'll try to paraphrase reefs on loa. Reefs' says that manifestation doesn't take time. Generally speaking, people are often disappointed in the lack of manifestation, and, following loa, that's because they're not in alignment with what they want to attract. So, it occurs to me that the place for work in reefs' loa model is to bring one into alignment with a particular point of attraction. It's not the manifestation that takes time and effort, but there can be a process of alignment, and that can appear in the form of hard work. The underlying question as to whether that work is necessary or not seems to me to be equal parts tautology and existential question. I agree that manifestation is already happening, but as soon as we talk of 'want' we aspire to a future experience. I also think the LOA narrative on the one hand makes a simple matter of confidence unnecessarily convoluted, and on the other hand is a crude version kamma philosophy. The vague allusion to 'alignment' - the lack thereof - perhaps suggests that people are inhibited by complex arrays of destructive negativity and self-impressions. I can't be sure because spiritual rhetoric is intentionally, and therefore, dishonestly ambiguous. I'm saying people do have such negative thinking and self-impressionism holding them back, and I suggest being realistic about it. It's wrong to start thinking nonsense Hicks said like, 'Oh I'm not aligned- that why' (not a quote). It's better to recognise in a completely factual way, 'it is precisely this negativity and these self-depreciating impressions that are holding me back, or attracting this crap'. I'm not saying there's anything wrong and it needs to be fixed. Maybe you can resolve it or maybe you can't. These sorts of beliefs are tricky and sticky and usually have a pile of evidence backing them up.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Nov 28, 2022 9:09:07 GMT -5
I'll try to paraphrase reefs on loa. Reefs' says that manifestation doesn't take time. Generally speaking, people are often disappointed in the lack of manifestation, and, following loa, that's because they're not in alignment with what they want to attract. So, it occurs to me that the place for work in reefs' loa model is to bring one into alignment with a particular point of attraction. It's not the manifestation that takes time and effort, but there can be a process of alignment, and that can appear in the form of hard work. The underlying question as to whether that work is necessary or not seems to me to be equal parts tautology and existential question. I agree that manifestation is already happening, but as soon as we talk of 'want' we aspire to a future experience. I also think the LOA narrative on the one hand makes a simple matter of confidence unnecessarily convoluted, and on the other hand is a crude version kamma philosophy. The vague allusion to 'alignment' - the lack thereof - perhaps suggests that people are inhibited by complex arrays of destructive negativity and self-impressions. I can't be sure because spiritual rhetoric is intentionally, and therefore, dishonestly ambiguous. I'm saying people do have such negative thinking and self-impressionism holding them back, and I suggest being realistic about it. It's wrong to start thinking nonsense Hicks said like, 'Oh I'm not aligned- that why' (not a quote). It's better to recognise in a completely factual way, 'it is precisely this negativity and these self-depreciating impressions that are holding me back, or attracting this crap'. I'm not saying there's anything wrong and it needs to be fixed. Maybe you can resolve it or maybe you can't. These sorts of beliefs are tricky and sticky and usually have a pile of evidence backing them up.
Here's the way I look at it, in brief. (sdp laughs at that). There is LOA and manifestation from two standpoints, our larger being or innerbeing, and the small s self. We have to decide which/who/what we are. For me, small s self just gets in the way, but it has to be considered. You know what seeing double means? You can do it easily by tugging on the skin below your eye in just the right way, experiment. But most of us live with double vision, as analogy. One image is our innerbeing, the other image is our small s self. For me alignment is the small s self being aligned with innerbeing. This eliminates the second image, no double vision. So if one is working from the standpoint of the small s self, this is just a waste of time. It's possible to have success, but still it's just a waste of time. The small s self needs to align with innerbeing, that's true alignment. |
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.. on a more serious note, it seems to me most people miss this distinction as rather subtle, despite the care you always take to make it. 
"