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Post by zendancer on Oct 19, 2018 19:44:55 GMT -5
In the quote Adya is simply telling people that SR is not the end of the line, and that realizations don't necessarily stop there. SR is just the end of active seeking. I know what Adya meant by that phrase, but that may be because we both spent years in Zen and share a similar background. It's just a pointer. I'm not so sure about that. Adya as I see it, is very clear on the distinction between 'mystical experience' vs. 'realization.' He has very specific criteria for what actually constitutes 'realization.' To him, it's definitely not experiential at all.
I actually don't see him talking at all about actual other 'Truth realizations' beyond what he calls 'abiding awakening' ie; If one is awake, and that is abiding, he's 'seen through' the whole enchilada that was muddying things up previously.
He does though speak about a momentary awakening, an initial glimpse and then falling back asleep, getting sucked back into the dream, vs. abiding wakefulness.
This is why I found it kind of suprising then, that he seems to be suggesting one can be fully, abidingly awake, and still somehow be failing to live from the realization of Oneness.
I was referring ONLY to SR, not kensho-realizations, so that there wouldn't be any misunderstanding. SR is usually the end of active seeking, but it's not the end of what can be discovered. It's turtles all the way down, and there is no end to the turtles.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2018 21:20:06 GMT -5
I'm not so sure about that. Adya as I see it, is very clear on the distinction between 'mystical experience' vs. 'realization.' He has very specific criteria for what actually constitutes 'realization.' To him, it's definitely not experiential at all.
I actually don't see him talking at all about actual other 'Truth realizations' beyond what he calls 'abiding awakening' ie; If one is awake, and that is abiding, he's 'seen through' the whole enchilada that was muddying things up previously.
He does though speak about a momentary awakening, an initial glimpse and then falling back asleep, getting sucked back into the dream, vs. abiding wakefulness.
This is why I found it kind of suprising then, that he seems to be suggesting one can be fully, abidingly awake, and still somehow be failing to live from the realization of Oneness.
I was referring ONLY to SR, not kensho-realizations, so that there wouldn't be any misunderstanding. SR is usually the end of active seeking, but it's not the end of what can be discovered. It's turtles all the way down, and there is no end to the turtles. "Discovering" something new in terms of experience, and actually 'realizing' something new, are two different things.
And, as I was saying, from what I've recently read in Adya's "The End Of Your World", (new book)....he is very particular about his definition of SR vs. Experience. (fwiw, as am I).
From what I can garner, he sees the 'realization' component of awakening to be complete, "IF" SR is abiding vs. something that comes and goes. Once SR is abiding, complete, I don't think he sees that there is anything actually "TO" realize.
That's also how I see it; Truly awakening means that you have seen through the false: Separation. And that realization, (if it's complete, abiding, was not a mere glimpse that disappears and then once again is seen) and it encompasses many other lesser realizations within it.
If the seeing through of separation is complete, it encompasses every realization (the seeing through of falsity) necessary to 'be free.' The idea that there are MORE realizations to come after that, I just don't jibe with.
That said, experience will continue to morph and change, as it does, and will indeed, be reflective of the absence of identification with being separate and ALL that that entails.
edit: That said about Adya's new book; I been kinda 'leafing' thru, I could be wrong about that. I do find him to most times state things perfectly, buy a few things he says....I would say it differently.
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Post by Reefs on Oct 19, 2018 22:11:41 GMT -5
Both kensho and satori are oneness realizations. I agree, but kensho rarely gets rid of the idea that whatever happened happened to a person. Only satori does that. Apparently there are a few people (the Buddha, Paul Sommers, etc) who get both in one blast, but that seems to be pretty rare. You can put me into the one blast group. So I can't really tell. And the only reason I am able to talk about kensho so clearly in comparison to satori is because it kept happening post SR. But since self-hood had already been seen thru, there wasn't anything new realized, it was more like a reminder, so to speak. So I never felt it worth mentioning. I actually used to take it for granted that it all happens in one blast, that's how I read it in the books and that's how it happened here. Obviously that's no necessarily so. That's why I didn't really pick up on your distinction between the two realizations in the early days, even though I always could relate. Now I clearly see the usefulness in telling apart the two different realizations. But I think we got a bit carried away with this focus on the distinctions recently, after all both realizations belong together. I see them as complementary realizations. Both are necessary for a more thorough, more complete understanding of reality. This doesn't mean that this is the end of the road though. But having only a reference for one or the other realization obviously leads to gross misunderstandings about the actual nature of reality.
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Post by Reefs on Oct 19, 2018 22:27:08 GMT -5
Okay, I'll quote a bit more from Adya's book. Here he describes his awakening, which - if I leave out the woo-woo parts - is almost identical to my own story. Adya describes it very well and he makes the exact same points I have been trying to get across all along:
In the book there is this additional paragraph which sums up what I just wrote in my previous post:
I hope that was clear enough. I've tried to explain it in a thousand ways over the years and I can't say it any more clearly. So if someone still can't relate to what's been pointed to here then I am going to assume a lack of actual reference.
What also really resonates in Adya's description is that he told no one because he didn't see the point in doing so. I did the same. And only later he realized that what happened is actually what all the teachers had been pointing to all along and what their teachings were actually about. Same here.
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Post by lolly on Oct 19, 2018 22:55:20 GMT -5
I was referring ONLY to SR, not kensho-realizations, so that there wouldn't be any misunderstanding. SR is usually the end of active seeking, but it's not the end of what can be discovered. It's turtles all the way down, and there is no end to the turtles. "Discovering" something new in terms of experience, and actually 'realizing' something new, are two different things.
And, as I was saying, from what I've recently read in Adya's "The End Of Your World", (new book)....he is very particular about his definition of SR vs. Experience. (fwiw, as am I).
From what I can garner, he sees the 'realization' component of awakening to be complete, "IF" SR is abiding vs. something that comes and goes. Once SR is abiding, complete, I don't think he sees that there is anything actually "TO" realize.
That's also how I see it; Truly awakening means that you have seen through the false: Separation. And that realization, (if it's complete, abiding, was not a mere glimpse that disappears and then once again is seen) and it encompasses many other lesser realizations within it.
If the seeing through of separation is complete, it encompasses every realization (the seeing through of falsity) necessary to 'be free.' The idea that there are MORE realizations to come after that, I just don't jibe with.
That said, experience will continue to morph and change, as it does, and will indeed, be reflective of the absence of identification with being separate and ALL that that entails.
edit: That said about Adya's new book; I been kinda 'leafing' thru, I could be wrong about that. I do find him to most times state things perfectly, buy a few things he says....I would say it differently.
The way I look at it is, realisation in itself is not an experience, but a learning. Not learning which is aquired knowledge, but a learning that propagates psychological transformation. When the realisation occurs as, 'I see,' the fundamental worldview is altered.
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Post by zendancer on Oct 19, 2018 23:20:58 GMT -5
Okay, I'll quote a bit more from Adya's book. Here he describes his awakening, which - if I leave out the woo-woo parts - is almost identical to my own story. Adya describes it very well and he makes the exact same points I have been trying to get across all along: In the book there is this additional paragraph which sums up what I just wrote in my previous post: I hope that was clear enough. I've tried to explain it in a thousand ways over the years and I can't say it any more clearly. So if someone still can't relate to what's been pointed to here then I am going to assume a lack of actual reference. What also really resonates in Adya's description is that he told no one because he didn't see the point in doing so. I did the same. And only later he realized that what happened is actually what all the teachers had been pointing to all along and what their teachings were actually about. Same here. Yes, and there are other clarifying realizations that can occur post SR. Some degree of ideation can remain even though the personal sense of selfhood has clearly been discovered as false and oneness is known to be the case. Tozan's four ranks, and writings by other sages, have to do with what can follow satori that deepens what has already been realized.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2018 0:33:49 GMT -5
Okay, I'll quote a bit more from Adya's book. Here he describes his awakening, which - if I leave out the woo-woo parts - is almost identical to my own story. Adya describes it very well and he makes the exact same points I have been trying to get across all along: In the book there is this additional paragraph which sums up what I just wrote in my previous post: I hope that was clear enough. I've tried to explain it in a thousand ways over the years and I can't say it any more clearly. So if someone still can't relate to what's been pointed to here then I am going to assume a lack of actual reference. What also really resonates in Adya's description is that he told no one because he didn't see the point in doing so. I did the same. And only later he realized that what happened is actually what all the teachers had been pointing to all along and what their teachings were actually about. Same here. Yes, and there are other clarifying realizations that can occur post SR. Some degree of ideation can remain even though the personal sense of selfhood has clearly been discovered as false and oneness is known to be the case. Tozan's four ranks, and writings by other sages, have to do with what can follow satori that deepens what has already been realized. Of course post SR, ideation remains. Engagement with experience pretty much demands it, at least to some degree. No problem with ideation. However, it's important to see ideation for what it is, and 'realization' for what it is.
Interesting, that quote from Adya, 'cause in his latest book, I'm pretty sure he would have called what he designated there to be 'realized' to actually only be 'a profound mystical experiece.'
"Another one of the great misunderstandings about awakening or enlightenment, is that it is some sort of mystical experience. We might expect an experience akin to union with God: a merging with the environment or a dissolving into the ocean. this is not the case. Nor is awakening the same as suddenly having a tremendous amount of cosmic insight--insight into the way the whole univere is construced, insight into the inner working of what we think is reality.
I could go on and on, but essentially what is important to realize is that spiritual awakening is very different from having a mystical experience. " Adyashanti
Anyway, from what is stated in the OP, he obviously sees himself as someone who still has 'room to grow' and perhaps see things differently than how he saw them, sees them now. In the past 2-3 years, I've had some shifts in my own seeing....not the overall realization of self, but some deeper nuances into what that actually means in terms of clarity in all facets of experience. You just never know.
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Post by tenka on Oct 20, 2018 4:22:41 GMT -5
.. What does this actual reflect though? What is realized? This has been my point made since the invention of the wheel lol .. If a peep supposedly realizes there is no-one here, all is a dream blah blah blah, then to express, act and do what you realize must then reflect this, but as far as I can tell by what I have seen in these instances has been oh, it's not real I might as well enjoy the dream for what it is .. butt I am still not going to walk in front of a bus because I am not drawn to do that This to me is not living what was supposedly realized . I have also said that what is realized is a mental interpretation so one can only really live what one has concluded . Everyone on the forum lives as though ________________ is tangible and physical, so no one steps out in front of a bus, but people who think of ____________________as an appearance, only, would say that this is all just part of the dream. .. Why do you think that peeps live as though this world is physical and yet say that this physicalness is just an empty appearance with no real substance . Reefs has suggested as have I that the empty / dream experience that can't be trusted as Truthy and such likes is not a realization at all . What are your thoughts? Reefs followed my lead on this in regards to kindness and I don't think there has been any takers as yet . Why be kind to an appearance in regards to saying what one truly believes if one believes the appearance to be just that .
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Post by tenka on Oct 20, 2018 4:33:54 GMT -5
.. What does this actual reflect though? What is realized? This has been my point made since the invention of the wheel lol .. If a peep supposedly realizes there is no-one here, all is a dream blah blah blah, then to express, act and do what you realize must then reflect this, but as far as I can tell by what I have seen in these instances has been oh, it's not real I might as well enjoy the dream for what it is .. butt I am still not going to walk in front of a bus because I am not drawn to do that This to me is not living what was supposedly realized . I have also said that what is realized is a mental interpretation so one can only really live what one has concluded . In 1984, after 5 months of meditation and several nights spent in NS, this body/mind had a kensho experience/realization that radically changed its understanding of reality and its way of being. It was as if a switch in the brain flipped from one neural pathway to totally different neural pathway. For two days the body/mind lived in a totally alive and dynamic world. It wanted nothing for itself (I actually tried to give away everything my wife and I owned, but my actions freaked out everyone around me--haha). I was only interested in helping other people. What we call "ego" vanished, and all kinds of amazing things happened. .. haha, good for you, but this still proves a point that even though you were not yourself so to speak you still had the understanding that what you had to give away would help other people . Mother teresa was selfless in her actions but still retained an understanding that what she was doing had real value . One can only do this when there is a self identified aspect in expression, it's still ego I would say, but ego to some involves more of a self importance attachment than anything else . This isn't my point in making tbh it's more to do with having values still in regards to living life post realization, it's not a reflection of empty appearances that pertain to not being of any real substance . Even the masters that teach others, the intensity at times when niz goes into a rage at his students is because he see's his students as something that will benefit from his teachings rather than just speaking to an empty dream character appearance . These are the things that don't make sense to me, why bother to teach a dream character if one really believes that is what they are . There is something not quite right with the teachers that entertain these philosophies but carry on as if the opposite is the reality .
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Post by Reefs on Oct 20, 2018 11:09:03 GMT -5
"Discovering" something new in terms of experience, and actually 'realizing' something new, are two different things.
And, as I was saying, from what I've recently read in Adya's "The End Of Your World", (new book)....he is very particular about his definition of SR vs. Experience. (fwiw, as am I). From what I can garner, he sees the 'realization' component of awakening to be complete, "IF" SR is abiding vs. something that comes and goes. Once SR is abiding, complete, I don't think he sees that there is anything actually "TO" realize.
That's also how I see it; Truly awakening means that you have seen through the false: Separation. And that realization, (if it's complete, abiding, was not a mere glimpse that disappears and then once again is seen) and it encompasses many other lesser realizations within it.
If the seeing through of separation is complete, it encompasses every realization (the seeing through of falsity) necessary to 'be free.' The idea that there are MORE realizations to come after that, I just don't jibe with.
That said, experience will continue to morph and change, as it does, and will indeed, be reflective of the absence of identification with being separate and ALL that that entails.
edit: That said about Adya's new book; I been kinda 'leafing' thru, I could be wrong about that. I do find him to most times state things perfectly, buy a few things he says....I would say it differently.
The way I look at it is, realisation in itself is not an experience, but a learning. Not learning which is aquired knowledge, but a learning that propagates psychological transformation. When the realisation occurs as, 'I see,' the fundamental worldview is altered. I think that's what ZD was getting at when he was talking about an intellectual shift. It's basically the integration process.
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Post by Reefs on Oct 20, 2018 11:15:28 GMT -5
Yes, and there are other clarifying realizations that can occur post SR. Some degree of ideation can remain even though the personal sense of selfhood has clearly been discovered as false and oneness is known to be the case. Tozan's four ranks, and writings by other sages, have to do with what can follow satori that deepens what has already been realized. Of course post SR, ideation remains. Engagement with experience pretty much demands it, at least to some degree. No problem with ideation. However, it's important to see ideation for what it is, and 'realization' for what it is.
Interesting, that quote from Adya, 'cause in his latest book, I'm pretty sure he would have called what he designated there to be 'realized' to actually only be 'a profound mystical experiece.' "Another one of the great misunderstandings about awakening or enlightenment, is that it is some sort of mystical experience. We might expect an experience akin to union with God: a merging with the environment or a dissolving into the ocean. this is not the case. Nor is awakening the same as suddenly having a tremendous amount of cosmic insight--insight into the way the whole univere is construced, insight into the inner working of what we think is reality.
I could go on and on, but essentially what is important to realize is that spiritual awakening is very different from having a mystical experience. " Adyashanti Anyway, from what is stated in the OP, he obviously sees himself as someone who still has 'room to grow' and perhaps see things differently than how he saw them, sees them now. In the past 2-3 years, I've had some shifts in my own seeing....not the overall realization of self, but some deeper nuances into what that actually means in terms of clarity in all facets of experience. You just never know.
Instead of re-posting that Adya quote another hundred times it would be better to actually look at what has been said. Because then you would see that we are still talking past each other.
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Post by Reefs on Oct 20, 2018 11:28:55 GMT -5
In 1984, after 5 months of meditation and several nights spent in NS, this body/mind had a kensho experience/realization that radically changed its understanding of reality and its way of being. It was as if a switch in the brain flipped from one neural pathway to totally different neural pathway. For two days the body/mind lived in a totally alive and dynamic world. It wanted nothing for itself (I actually tried to give away everything my wife and I owned, but my actions freaked out everyone around me--haha). I was only interested in helping other people. What we call "ego" vanished, and all kinds of amazing things happened. .. haha, good for you, but this still proves a point that even though you were not yourself so to speak you still had the understanding that what you had to give away would help other people . Mother teresa was selfless in her actions but still retained an understanding that what she was doing had real value .One can only do this when there is a self identified aspect in expression, it's still ego I would say, but ego to some involves more of a self importance attachment than anything else . This isn't my point in making tbh it's more to do with having values still in regards to living life post realization, it's not a reflection of empty appearances that pertain to not being of any real substance . Even the masters that teach others, the intensity at times when niz goes into a rage at his students is because he see's his students as something that will benefit from his teachings rather than just speaking to an empty dream character appearance . These are the things that don't make sense to me, why bother to teach a dream character if one really believes that is what they are . There is something not quite right with the teachers that entertain these philosophies but carry on as if the opposite is the reality . Mother Theresa very likely was just another faker. In her letters to a priest she admitted that most of the time she felt godforsaken. The outward hyperactivity probably just was a coping mechanism. Osho called her a charlatan and suggested once that it was time for her to jump into a lake. I've also heard some reports from western doctors who observed the situation at her hospitals which they called atrocious. So lack of self-esteem or self-hate shouldn't be mistaken for selflessness.
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Post by lolly on Oct 20, 2018 12:44:47 GMT -5
The way I look at it is, realisation in itself is not an experience, but a learning. Not learning which is aquired knowledge, but a learning that propagates psychological transformation. When the realisation occurs as, 'I see,' the fundamental worldview is altered. I think that's what ZD was getting at when he was talking about an intellectual shift. It's basically the integration process. I had mentioned to ZD that there is a shift, and realisation (I call 'insight') is like deeper wisdom or subtler understanding. I'm not sure how that relates to integration, but what I think of as integration is part and parcel of it.
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Post by tenka on Oct 20, 2018 13:46:53 GMT -5
.. haha, good for you, but this still proves a point that even though you were not yourself so to speak you still had the understanding that what you had to give away would help other people . Mother teresa was selfless in her actions but still retained an understanding that what she was doing had real value .One can only do this when there is a self identified aspect in expression, it's still ego I would say, but ego to some involves more of a self importance attachment than anything else . This isn't my point in making tbh it's more to do with having values still in regards to living life post realization, it's not a reflection of empty appearances that pertain to not being of any real substance . Even the masters that teach others, the intensity at times when niz goes into a rage at his students is because he see's his students as something that will benefit from his teachings rather than just speaking to an empty dream character appearance . These are the things that don't make sense to me, why bother to teach a dream character if one really believes that is what they are . There is something not quite right with the teachers that entertain these philosophies but carry on as if the opposite is the reality . Mother Theresa very likely was just another faker. In her letters to a priest she admitted that most of the time she felt godforsaken. The outward hyperactivity probably just was a coping mechanism. Osho called her a charlatan and suggested once that it was time for her to jump into a lake. I've also heard some reports from western doctors who observed the situation at her hospitals which they called atrocious. So lack of self-esteem or self-hate shouldn't be mistaken for selflessness. Who knows, but the point is that selfless peeps still find value in helping others . Master teachers find value in helping others . If there is the supposed realization that peeps are empty of truth and are not of any real substance then no-one would retain the urge to help and teach others . If they really believed that appearances were only that they would not bother to help or teach .. What would be the point . It would be like trying to teach your shadow to box .
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Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2018 14:04:03 GMT -5
It's an impassioned and profound pointing, but he both calls for people to wake up and challenges them to deepen into that awakening after. It works, it's fine, but if someone deepens into a unrealized life thinking that the search is over, they've missed an opportunity. Ok, there's at least two ways to interpret that: 1) thinking you're SR when you're not, in which case your point might be valid 2) someone who steps off the spiritual treadmill, and you're suggesting they should get back on
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