Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2018 10:46:32 GMT -5
What idea that suggests you should strive to live in a certain manner? If you look at the OP, and then what some are saying about it, it does sound as though there's a suggestion that one 'should' be living according to his realization, which to me, suggests that 'trying or striving' for that, is also being suggested: "Adya: That’s a whole other discovery—life lived from oneness. Embodying what you are; being a human expression of oneness. There is no question of you becoming the One; you are the One. The question is, are you a conscious expression of the One? Has the One awakened itself? Have you remembered what you really are? And if you have, are you living it? Are you really living consciously as the One?"" In the bolded he seems to suggest that one who is SR, could take a look and see that he has actually not been living according to what he's realized. I really don't understand that, because SR to me means seeing there really is not set/pat 'way' that life needs to be, or should be, lived. Living in the realization that all is Self, will naturally have certain ramifications....after all, 'freedom' means no longer being a slave to ideas...but included in that, is the idea that living life post SR, looks a certain way. I would say there ARE a lot of illusions that fall away in the realization of "Oneness/no separation." It is rather encompassing in terms of clearing out the baggage. Me either. That's my point.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2018 10:48:07 GMT -5
No, actually, ye "don't" know. That's the point that's been made. You don't know either way. Thus, you simply engage the appearance AS it appears. Not according to Enigma. If you think he's said that, then take it up with him. I'm telling you what I see.
|
|
|
Post by andrew on Oct 19, 2018 10:52:37 GMT -5
Okay this is going to be fun. Let's apply what we've been taught to real life examples. I'll start with your example: What about kindness? Well, why would you insist on being kind to an empty appearance in the first place? Sounds kinda silly. Remember, there's no one at home there, ye know? No, actually, ye "don't" know. That's the point that's been made. You don't know either way. Thus, you simply engage the appearance AS it appears. This is a very illustrative point, I see why Reefs picked up on it. In your mind (or model or whatever), you consider that you 'as Being' are relating (or engaging) to 'appearances (as they appear)'. I would be curious to see if that's how Enigma considers it.
|
|
|
Post by Reefs on Oct 19, 2018 10:57:46 GMT -5
Not according to Enigma. If you think he's said that, then take it up with him. I'm telling you what I see. I would if he could finally stop moping. I've already got the exact quote ready.
|
|
|
Post by zendancer on Oct 19, 2018 12:37:49 GMT -5
Interesting. Seeing through separation took care of that one for me. Both kensho and satori are oneness realizations. I agree, but kensho rarely gets rid of the idea that whatever happened happened to a person. Only satori does that. Apparently there are a few people (the Buddha, Paul Sommers, etc) who get both in one blast, but that seems to be pretty rare.
|
|
|
Post by bluey on Oct 19, 2018 13:58:09 GMT -5
Great post Reefs 👍
|
|
|
Post by tenka on Oct 19, 2018 14:10:55 GMT -5
.. What does this actual reflect though? What is realized? This has been my point made since the invention of the wheel lol .. If a peep supposedly realizes there is no-one here, all is a dream blah blah blah, then to express, act and do what you realize must then reflect this, but as far as I can tell by what I have seen in these instances has been oh, it's not real I might as well enjoy the dream for what it is .. butt I am still not going to walk in front of a bus because I am not drawn to do that This to me is not living what was supposedly realized . I have also said that what is realized is a mental interpretation so one can only really live what one has concluded . Tenka: this is one of the main issues that seems to be in disagreement on the forum. I think all of us would agree that there is only ______________________, and that __________________ is unified, infinite, and ungraspable by the mind/intellect. I think everyone, whether SR has occurred or not, would agree that ___________________ is what we are. Some of us think that _________________ is an appearance in consciousness, only, a dream, whereas others think that it is a tangible living Presence that, in your terminology, has "substance." I hesitate to use the word "substance" because that word implies physical matter, and modern physics indicates that what we call "matter" is actually a form of what we might call "compressed energy." I also hesitate to use the word "substance" because various non-local events (which most religious people call "miracles") indicate that mind can interact with matter in ways that challenge the idea of an objective solidity. Everyone on the forum lives as though ________________ is tangible and physical, so no one steps out in front of a bus, but people who think of ____________________as an appearance, only, would say that this is all just part of the dream. People who cease to identify solely with a body, and deeply realize that what they really are is ________________________, may still think about the situation in these two different ways. The reason that Zen people take a radically "concrete" approach to all things existential is to avoid both of these ways of thinking about ________________. The Zen approach is exactly in accordance with what Adya is pointing to in this quote, but it is non-theoretical. It prefers to put what he's pointing to into practice through direct action. IOW, Zen people are so interested in third mountain that they choose to live on third mountain and act rather than theorize. In a sense, they psychologically become the One-in-action, and this is why the highest goal in Zen is to "become an ordinary person" free of self-referential reflection who has left all ideas about "enlightenment" or "attainment" behind. From my POV it doesn't seem to make any difference which way people choose to think and talk about this issue because everyone lives as though reality is physical (has substance). It probably makes a difference psychologically, but the issues are so subtle and so hard to communicate that I doubt any agreement could be reached about that. I'll give one example: In 1984, after 5 months of meditation and several nights spent in NS, this body/mind had a kensho experience/realization that radically changed its understanding of reality and its way of being. It was as if a switch in the brain flipped from one neural pathway to totally different neural pathway. For two days the body/mind lived in a totally alive and dynamic world. It wanted nothing for itself (I actually tried to give away everything my wife and I owned, but my actions freaked out everyone around me--haha). I was only interested in helping other people. What we call "ego" vanished, and all kinds of amazing things happened. It literally felt as if the body/mind were living in heaven rather than on earth. After about two and a half days, ego returned, along with the dead world that had existed previously. That introduction to "the kingdom of God," or whatever we want to call it, led to a long search for how to re-enter that world and also a search for contextual understanding. Eventually, the illusion of being a SVP collapsed, and I finally saw that I am ______________________. As Adya notes, SR ended the search for understanding because the searcher was discovered to have been ___________________ rather than a SVP. That event led to a different way of life, further realizations, and an internalization of what it means to be ________________ in action. FWIW, the body/mind never returned to what we might call a "Christ-conscious" state of mind living in "the kingdom of God." It knows that although that sort of thing is possible, it also accepts that whatever is happening in the present moment is not something directed by a SVP, and it is content to be "an ordinary person" doing whatever needs to be done. It's impossible to convey to someone else what it's like to live in "the kingdom of God," and it's also impossible to convey what it's like to live without the sense of being a SVP. All of us live in psychological landscapes that are uniquely different, and the best that we can do is compare notes and share as best we can what we've seen along the way. We have all had different experiences and realizations, and all that we can do with people who have reached different conclusions about what's been seen or understood is agree to disagree. There is a lot to this Z.D. so I might prise it a part a few times when I get the time . It seems as if the substance world is problematic, but lets just speak in layman's terms here, I have just sat down and opened a beer, the beer is obviously of substance, it is of real substance in comparison to a picture of a beer that doesn't contain the same ingredients of a real beer . The physical world likewise should not cause an issue, the scientists are cut from the same cloth as are their discoveries, this like for like so to speak . We can take the approach that this universe is a hologram and is not of any real substance other than the light that is projected, but can you drink a lite beer (joke) . It doesn't matter really what constitutes the appearance in some respect, butt there is clearly a difference that pertains to a real beer that quenches your thirst and a a cardboard cut out of a bottle of beer that doesn't .
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2018 14:29:40 GMT -5
No, actually, ye "don't" know. That's the point that's been made. You don't know either way. Thus, you simply engage the appearance AS it appears. This is a very illustrative point, I see why Reefs picked up on it. In your mind (or model or whatever), you consider that you 'as Being' are relating (or engaging) to 'appearances (as they appear)'. I would be curious to see if that's how Enigma considers it. Is there some 'other' me, that could relate? There is only One as i see it. The character/body/mind is included in that.
|
|
|
Post by laughter on Oct 19, 2018 14:35:21 GMT -5
Awww....Surely there is a place for kindness........ I see what you mean here, and when I first "got the big picture" I was very fortunate to find an online community with many seasoned voices and a culture of kindness. For me, at the time, that "big picture" seemed intermittent. It was like an ephemeral state of alert and attentive bliss free of any internal dialog, that would come and go, and I learned from reading along there that this was quite a common experience.
|
|
|
Post by laughter on Oct 19, 2018 14:41:21 GMT -5
The nagging sense that "realization is not enough" is the sign of a realization that has not been fully grasped. There are many who glimpse the truth but then immediately go right back -- "Yes but how can I *apply* this realization to the self that I just saw is false?" "Yeah, I realize this, but why am I still so unhappy?" The cure for this is further inquiry. Yes, how can the seeking really be over if there is any question such as the ones Adya' poses here? But you see, even then though, even after all the questions really are gone, and even after inner peace comes to stay for good, life goes on. I think the deeper challenge he offers here is .. "how are you going to do that "?? Or, we might think of it as "how's that workin' out for ya'?? "
|
|
|
Post by andrew on Oct 19, 2018 14:44:25 GMT -5
This is a very illustrative point, I see why Reefs picked up on it. In your mind (or model or whatever), you consider that you 'as Being' are relating (or engaging) to 'appearances (as they appear)'. I would be curious to see if that's how Enigma considers it. Is there some 'other' me, that could relate? There is only One as i see it. The character/body/mind is included in that. Well, I am answering this on the other thread I believe, so I'll continue there for now.
|
|
|
Post by siftingtothetruth on Oct 19, 2018 15:00:28 GMT -5
The nagging sense that "realization is not enough" is the sign of a realization that has not been fully grasped. There are many who glimpse the truth but then immediately go right back -- "Yes but how can I *apply* this realization to the self that I just saw is false?" "Yeah, I realize this, but why am I still so unhappy?" The cure for this is further inquiry. Yes, how can the seeking really be over if there is any question such as the ones Adya' poses here? But you see, even then though, even after all the questions really are gone, and even after inner peace comes to stay for good, life goes on. I think the deeper challenge he offers here is .. "how are you going to do that "?? Or, we might think of it as "how's that workin' out for ya'?? " The very question “how am I going to do that?” — if taken seriously, if it causes the least bit of mental distress — is a sign of prior conditioning re-arising. Those old habits have to be progressively worn away striking again and again against the hard rock of reality. When the mind is absolutely calm in its depths, life takes care of itself. Whatever happens, happens. No effort needed to “live in oneness.” Quite the opposite. Even these habits don’t “need” to be worn away by any effort. They don’t actually trap anyone. But they simply do get worn away by realization, automatically and inevitably.
|
|
|
Post by zendancer on Oct 19, 2018 16:05:10 GMT -5
The nagging sense that "realization is not enough" is the sign of a realization that has not been fully grasped. There are many who glimpse the truth but then immediately go right back -- "Yes but how can I *apply* this realization to the self that I just saw is false?" "Yeah, I realize this, but why am I still so unhappy?" The cure for this is further inquiry. Yes, how can the seeking really be over if there is any question such as the ones Adya' poses here? But you see, even then though, even after all the questions really are gone, and even after inner peace comes to stay for good, life goes on. I think the deeper challenge he offers here is .. "how are you going to do that "?? Or, we might think of it as "how's that workin' out for ya'?? " Yes, but I think Adya's question in the quote was rather rhetorical, and it was directed primarily toward people who are still seeking. It seems to me that Adya, like most non-duality sages, is saying: 1. It's possible for the Infinite to directly apprehend Itself 2. It's possible for the Infinite to realize that SVP is an illusion and that the Infinite is all there is 3. Seeking usually comes to an end when SR occurs, because at that point the real seeker is discovered to have been the Infinite 4. Realizations continue to occur after SR, and there is no end to the depth of what may be realized, internalized, understood, and manifested following SR Somewhere Adya talks about appearances, but he talks about them in the context of asking people, "What do appearances appear to?" Life is like a floating opera, but what is it that watches the opera? This can be known directly and conclusively by the only watcher there is.
|
|
|
Post by zendancer on Oct 19, 2018 16:42:31 GMT -5
What idea that suggests you should strive to live in a certain manner? If you look at the OP, and then what some are saying about it, it does sound as though there's a suggestion that one 'should' be living according to his realization, which to me, suggests that 'trying or striving' for that, is also being suggested: "Adya: That’s a whole other discovery—life lived from oneness. Embodying what you are; being a human expression of oneness. There is no question of you becoming the One; you are the One. The question is, are you a conscious expression of the One? Has the One awakened itself? Have you remembered what you really are? And if you have, are you living it? Are you really living consciously as the One?"" In the bolded he seems to suggest that one who is SR, could take a look and see that he has actually not been living according to what he's realized. I really don't understand that, because SR to me means seeing there really is not set/pat 'way' that life needs to be, or should be, lived. Living in the realization that all is Self, will naturally have certain ramifications....after all, 'freedom' means no longer being a slave to ideas...but included in that, is the idea that living life post SR, looks a certain way. I would say there ARE a lot of illusions that fall away in the realization of "Oneness/no separation." It is rather encompassing in terms of clearing out the baggage. Me either. That's my point. In the quote Adya is simply telling people that SR is not the end of the line, and that realizations don't necessarily stop there. SR is just the end of active seeking. I know what Adya meant by that phrase, but that may be because we both spent years in Zen and share a similar background. It's just a pointer.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2018 17:04:12 GMT -5
If you look at the OP, and then what some are saying about it, it does sound as though there's a suggestion that one 'should' be living according to his realization, which to me, suggests that 'trying or striving' for that, is also being suggested: "Adya: That’s a whole other discovery—life lived from oneness. Embodying what you are; being a human expression of oneness. There is no question of you becoming the One; you are the One. The question is, are you a conscious expression of the One? Has the One awakened itself? Have you remembered what you really are? And if you have, are you living it? Are you really living consciously as the One?"" In the bolded he seems to suggest that one who is SR, could take a look and see that he has actually not been living according to what he's realized. I really don't understand that, because SR to me means seeing there really is not set/pat 'way' that life needs to be, or should be, lived. Living in the realization that all is Self, will naturally have certain ramifications....after all, 'freedom' means no longer being a slave to ideas...but included in that, is the idea that living life post SR, looks a certain way. I would say there ARE a lot of illusions that fall away in the realization of "Oneness/no separation." It is rather encompassing in terms of clearing out the baggage. Me either. That's my point. In the quote Adya is simply telling people that SR is not the end of the line, and that realizations don't necessarily stop there. SR is just the end of active seeking. I know what Adya meant by that phrase, but that may be because we both spent years in Zen and share a similar background. It's just a pointer. I'm not so sure about that. Adya as I see it, is very clear on the distinction between 'mystical experience' vs. 'realization.'
He has very specific criteria for what actually constitutes 'realization.' To him, it's definitely not experiential at all.
I actually don't see him talking at all about actual other 'Truth realizations' beyond what he calls 'abiding awakening' ie; If one is awake, and that is abiding, he's 'seen through' the whole enchilada that was muddying things up previously.
He does though speak about a momentary awakening, an initial glimpse and then falling back asleep, getting sucked back into the dream, vs. abiding wakefulness.
This is why I found it kind of suprising then, that he seems to be suggesting one can be fully, abidingly awake, and still somehow be failing to live from the realization of Oneness.
|
|