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Post by krsnaraja on Oct 4, 2017 17:35:23 GMT -5
I'd be interested to know the results of what area of the brain becomes active during such an impassioned belief. I'm sure somebody has done a study on religious devotion and brain activity. Jesus Christ perhaps already conducted EEGs on his disciples. It says from a prayer Apostle's Creed, " ... He is seated at the right hand of the Father and will come to judge the living and the dead. " The answer is in the right brain hemisphere ( devotional worship ). Non-dualism is in the left.
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Post by enigma on Oct 4, 2017 17:40:21 GMT -5
Mostly, what you talk about has always seemed like a different, more complex way of talking about nonduality, while constantly declaring that nonduality is inadequate. That's why I tend not to engage your different language but rather to question why you seek to distance yourself from what most of us talk about. Your mantra is 'I'm not a nondualist', as though anyone here has even claimed such an affiliation. I'm just presenting my view. When you come to Spiritual Teachers Discussions/Forums, right at the top it says: "...is not limited to those interested in spiritual teachers reviewed..." It just seems the majority of the posters here seem to think once one gets the nondual thingy, that makes duality irrelevant, that nothing you can then say about duality, matters. I'm just saying, here...we...are, I want to know what matters in the land of here, we, are. I just share that, in case anybody else is interested. I'm just saying, yes, something does happen next. If there is no next (for "you"), then I can't put a burr under "your" saddle. I've never heard anybody say duality is irrelevant. That's the sort of story you conjure up in order to distance yourself, like the idea that if we don't have volition then what we do doesn't matter. I'm trying to understand why you do that.
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Post by enigma on Oct 4, 2017 17:48:53 GMT -5
The solution to the apparent dilemma you pose is in the complete understanding of the meaning of nonvolition. I've been promising Laughter for years that I would write an explanation and failed to fulfill my promise, so I take complete responsibility. What you do is a function of your conditioning only, and as such you have no volition, but what others say and do is part of that conditioning, and so it matters very much what peeps say and do. It matters very much how life is lived because everybody is conditioned by you, and you are conditioned by everybody else. You are told to live your life responsibly because if you conclude that it doesn't matter what you do, that bit of conditioning will cause you to act destructively in the world. The one who truly understands nonvolition also understands his responsibility. There is no paradox or contradiction. I'm happy to have finally cleared up the nonvolition issue once and for all. It makes me happy. The bold is in direct contradiction to the underlined, and vice versa. If the person is conditioned, and is nothing but their conditioning, they can only act from their conditioning, which negates what peeps say and do, mattering. Peeps would have zero control over what they say and do (the veritable foundation of nonvolition). So saying it matters, is "pouring from the empty into the void". It's the ultimate catch-22. You can't have it both ways, nonvolition, and saying it matters what we do (as if we had any control over what we do). nonvolition must necessarily say that the self (imaginary or otherwise) is but a tiny cog in a huge (Cosmic) mechanism, and cannot do anything except be-do what it is programmed to do. The idea that you aren't in control, and therefore nothing you do matters, sounds like Andy's flawful logic. It's not really so that you are a tiny cog in a cosmic mechanism. You are the cosmos, and you don't get to play the game of being a separate person. Trying to play that game is what makes you suffer.
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Post by enigma on Oct 4, 2017 17:53:30 GMT -5
Well, what I see is God in the self deceptive functioning of mind. After all, self deception is quite miraculous. But a better comparison might be God falling into his own dream and becoming a mass murderer. Concluding that God moves in mysterious ways and must have his reasons would be highly inappropriate. God slaps people to try to wake them up! God moves in mysterious ways.
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Post by laughter on Oct 4, 2017 17:59:24 GMT -5
We all should question God for doing that. Then we can question our own beliefs that made it necessary to question God. I qustioned God why He caused countless to starve and die of pestilence. I questioned God why He let nature to cause havoc on earth with super cyclones and earthquakes. I questioned God why He gave us cancer. God said it was a way to reduce the world's growing population. He said the world's too over crowded. God said those who will be killed earlier than the others will have their turn to live longer in their next lives. Those who will live longer in this present life will get to live shorter in the next. The first will be the last and the last will be the first says the Bible. Are you 100% serious about this? I promise no judgments either way from me on this. I'm really just curious as to whether there's any element of kidding around in what you wrote.
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Post by enigma on Oct 4, 2017 18:00:20 GMT -5
We all should question God for doing that. Then we can question our own beliefs that made it necessary to question God. I qustioned God why He caused countless to starve and die of pestilence. I questioned God why He let nature to cause havoc on earth with super cyclones and earthquakes. I questioned God why He gave us cancer. God said it was a way to reduce the world's growing population. He said the world's too over crowded. God said those who will be killed earlier than the others will have their turn to live longer in their next lives. Those who will live longer in this present life will get to live shorter in the next. The first will be the last and the last will be the first says the Bible. God said that?? Tell God I have a better plan. Don't cause as many pregnancies to occur and you won't have to cause all that suffering and bloodshed. Tell Him to just put down his riffle for a minute and think about it, okay?
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Post by laughter on Oct 4, 2017 18:01:42 GMT -5
God slaps people to try to wake them up! God moves in mysterious ways. Serves him right. Silly people peep.
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Post by enigma on Oct 4, 2017 18:01:56 GMT -5
You're assuming he remembered to turn his EEG on. The EEG-rection was quite very stiff. Praise God!
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Post by laughter on Oct 4, 2017 18:04:01 GMT -5
I qustioned God why He caused countless to starve and die of pestilence. I questioned God why He let nature to cause havoc on earth with super cyclones and earthquakes. I questioned God why He gave us cancer. God said it was a way to reduce the world's growing population. He said the world's too over crowded. God said those who will be killed earlier than the others will have their turn to live longer in their next lives. Those who will live longer in this present life will get to live shorter in the next. The first will be the last and the last will be the first says the Bible. God said that?? Tell God I have a better plan. Don't cause as many pregnancies to occur and you won't have to cause all that suffering and bloodshed. Tell Him to just put down his riffle for a minute and think about it, okay? Hey, he's got alot to keep track of, ok? Sometimes he just doesn't think ahead all that well. Sometimes to get the masters to release their slaves you have to kill all their first born. It's a cosmic do-over. None of it matters because everything is equal and everyone can look forward to reincarnation anyway.
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Post by enigma on Oct 4, 2017 18:05:30 GMT -5
I'm sure somebody has done a study on religious devotion and brain activity. Jesus Christ perhaps already conducted EEGs on his disciples. It says from a prayer Apostle's Creed, " ... He is seated at the right hand of the Father and will come to judge the living and the dead. " The answer is in the right brain hemisphere ( devotional worship ). Non-dualism is in the left. There is a devotional (Bakti) approach to nonduality.
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Post by enigma on Oct 4, 2017 18:08:29 GMT -5
God slaps people to try to wake them up! God moves in mysterious ways. Serves him right. Silly people peep. The hat, alone, deserves a slap.
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Post by laughter on Oct 4, 2017 18:11:04 GMT -5
Serves him right. Silly people peep. The hat, alone, deserves a slap. Probably the kind of guy that starts and keeps existential debates going ad infinitum on internet forums about spirituality.
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Post by enigma on Oct 4, 2017 18:12:08 GMT -5
God said that?? Tell God I have a better plan. Don't cause as many pregnancies to occur and you won't have to cause all that suffering and bloodshed. Tell Him to just put down his riffle for a minute and think about it, okay? Hey, he's got alot to keep track of, ok? Sometimes he just doesn't think ahead all that well. Sometimes to get the masters to release their slaves you have to kill all their first born. It's a cosmic do-over. None of it matters because everything is equal and everyone can look forward to reincarnation anyway. That's why he needs a little help now and then. We could put together some bullet points (no pun intended) and discuss them with Him. Maybe we can get him back on track.
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Post by laughter on Oct 4, 2017 18:13:55 GMT -5
Hey, he's got alot to keep track of, ok? Sometimes he just doesn't think ahead all that well. Sometimes to get the masters to release their slaves you have to kill all their first born. It's a cosmic do-over. None of it matters because everything is equal and everyone can look forward to reincarnation anyway. That's why he needs a little help now and then. We could put together some bullet points (no pun intended) and discuss them with Him. Maybe we can get him back on track. I hear it takes some serious effort to get on the list of consulting vendors. You have to demonstrate reach in terms of followers before you can get an appointment to make a pitch.
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Post by laughter on Oct 4, 2017 18:17:38 GMT -5
The bold is in direct contradiction to the underlined, and vice versa. If the person is conditioned, and is nothing but their conditioning, they can only act from their conditioning, which negates what peeps say and do, mattering. Peeps would have zero control over what they say and do (the veritable foundation of nonvolition). So saying it matters, is "pouring from the empty into the void". It's the ultimate catch-22. You can't have it both ways, nonvolition, and saying it matters what we do (as if we had any control over what we do). nonvolition must necessarily say that the self (imaginary or otherwise) is but a tiny cog in a huge (Cosmic) mechanism, and cannot do anything except be-do what it is programmed to do. The idea that you aren't in control, and therefore nothing you do matters, sounds like Andy's flawful logic. It's not really so that you are a tiny cog in a cosmic mechanism. You are the cosmos, and you don't get to play the game of being a separate person. Trying to play that game is what makes you suffer. Killjoy frog!
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