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Post by enigma on Oct 4, 2017 11:09:38 GMT -5
You don't want to know why God is a mass murderer? Seems important. I already knew that when Krsna caused to happen the Battle of Kuruksetra..Hundreds of thousands died in that senseless war initiated by Krsna. Who can question God for doing that. Afterall we are all Krsna's creations. God can take away anytime lives. He uses man as His instrument of destruction. He used USA to drop those nuclear bombs in Hiroshima & Nagasaki. We all should question God for doing that. Then we can question our own beliefs that made it necessary to question God.
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Post by enigma on Oct 4, 2017 11:11:13 GMT -5
God in the Vedic scriptures is Vasudeva, the Cause of all causes. God can directly kill his enemies in the likes of Kamsa & Putana. God has no remorse killing anybody. God knows it's only the body that is killed. The self/soul can not be killed. Once the body dies, the self/soul from within takes another body. Those who got killed in the Las Vegas massacre are their bodies that got killed. But their selves/souls are not. They got killed maybe of their past karma. Paddock the killer also has this past karma to settle with those he killed. From within Paddock is God the paramatma who allowed the shooter to shoot those attending the concert in Las Vegas. Man proposes God disposes. Nothing that happens in this world does not have a hand of God. So, the only way for us to be happy is surrender to God and pray God will be merciful to us. Does the right side of your brain show extreme over activity when writing a perspective of this kind? You're assuming he remembered to turn his EEG on.
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Post by enigma on Oct 4, 2017 11:17:51 GMT -5
And, as a cultural description it has no difference to your description of finding God at the centre of the mind of man. Well, what I see is God in the self deceptive functioning of mind. After all, self deception is quite miraculous. But a better comparison might be God falling into his own dream and becoming a mass murderer. Concluding that God moves in mysterious ways and must have his reasons would be highly inappropriate.
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Post by enigma on Oct 4, 2017 11:19:15 GMT -5
Does the right side of your brain show extreme over activity when writing a perspective of this kind? I don't know. I haven't had an EEG taken since I can remember. Well, EEGs can cause memory loss.
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Post by enigma on Oct 4, 2017 11:21:12 GMT -5
I don't know. I haven't had an EEG taken since I can remember. I'd be interested to know the results of what area of the brain becomes active during such an impassioned belief. I'm sure somebody has done a study on religious devotion and brain activity.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Oct 4, 2017 15:02:14 GMT -5
It doesn't, it can't. All that is hidden, in the dark. Only by "light" can I see what I am. I am two, that which sees and that which is seen. My ordinary state is to say "I" to what is seen, not to what sees. I say "I" to the fictitious self. I have changed your post to the first person because you can only explain to me what you're doing. What you seem to be saying here is that although you understand when pulleys are pulled and levers are levered, you are keeping yourself from admitting that you've felt them. So it's only when your chin is three feet above your head that you feel anything. I can't follow what you are trying to say here. Let me put it a different way. self 1 is our ordinary self, otherwise known as ego (described earlier as the fictitious self). When we are in self 1 "mode", we merely are what we are. This is like an iceberg, that is, the part above the water, we only know the part above the water, we function as-if there is no subconscious (nothing below water level). self 1 doesn't know self 2. self 2 is what-can-see...self 1. self 2 knows it is, and knows self 1 is. But self 2 cannot control self 1, it can only see self 1. when self 2 is present, self 1 can be present, or not. self 2 is ~below water level~. self 2 is real, (more real). self 1 is what responds to the world, is the ~knee-jerk reflex~. If self 2 is present, ~it~ can be a cushion, that is, absorb some of the shock of exterior events. But what usually happens for a long time, when life "sucks", it temporarily obliterates self 2 leaving only self 1. Eventually, after hours, days, weeks or even months, self 2 might show back up, and basically "say": wt____? (I don't know what you mean concerning the 3' up chin...)...
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Oct 4, 2017 15:16:03 GMT -5
I don't disagree with much of the nondual "teaching", (nonvolition, etc.) but I've said it doesn't go far enough. There is work on knowledge, yes, but knowledge only goes so far. There is also work on being. The whole point of the 4th way teaching is to change one's being. That's the way to freedom. It doesn't matter what Gurdjieff said, unless you verify it. I'm not trying to convince anyone about anything, I know I can't. I'm just sharing part of my journey. Anyone who is content, I wouldn't wish to disturb. Mostly, what you talk about has always seemed like a different, more complex way of talking about nonduality, while constantly declaring that nonduality is inadequate. That's why I tend not to engage your different language but rather to question why you seek to distance yourself from what most of us talk about. Your mantra is 'I'm not a nondualist', as though anyone here has even claimed such an affiliation. I'm just presenting my view. When you come to Spiritual Teachers Discussions/Forums, right at the top it says: "...is not limited to those interested in spiritual teachers reviewed..." It just seems the majority of the posters here seem to think once one gets the nondual thingy, that makes duality irrelevant, that nothing you can then say about duality, matters. I'm just saying, here...we...are, I want to know what matters in the land of here, we, are. I just share that, in case anybody else is interested. I'm just saying, yes, something does happen next. If there is no next (for "you"), then I can't put a burr under "your" saddle.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Oct 4, 2017 15:32:24 GMT -5
All the "nondualists" here have a double standard. OTOH they say, nobody does anything, the "person" is merely a flow of the whole universe (or some such). But then OTOH they say you have to live as if you are a doer. In one or the other there is delusion, nobody can believe both and live as if both are true. So it's not me you have a problem, it's yourself and the others. I'm saying the question makes no sense because it can't be both ways. You (plural) can't be striving to live in a certain way, IF YOU REALLY BELIEVE OR SEE IT TO BE TRUE THAT THERE ISN'T A ~DOING~ sELF. If you lived from both you would be living constantly in laughter's double-bind. (There is no doer, yet I am doing). {But yes, people live this way daily. There is an ~appliance~ that allows this, they're called buffers. They allow one to live in contradictions. They allow one to not-see the contradictions}. That's the (final) point I was making. The two (expressed above), together, must necessarily mean it can't matter how life is lived, because any doing-self is illusory, just isn't. And all this must necessarily mean the guy who killed 50+ and wounded 400+ people last night in LV was merely a natural flow of the universe at that moment. But somebody here is going to say, Oh, no!, no!, no!, that's not what we're saying (always happens when I raise this point). You can't have your cake and eat it too. The solution to the apparent dilemma you pose is in the complete understanding of the meaning of nonvolition. I've been promising Laughter for years that I would write an explanation and failed to fulfill my promise, so I take complete responsibility. What you do is a function of your conditioning only, and as such you have no volition, but what others say and do is part of that conditioning, and so it matters very much what peeps say and do. It matters very much how life is lived because everybody is conditioned by you, and you are conditioned by everybody else. You are told to live your life responsibly because if you conclude that it doesn't matter what you do, that bit of conditioning will cause you to act destructively in the world. The one who truly understands nonvolition also understands his responsibility. There is no paradox or contradiction. I'm happy to have finally cleared up the nonvolition issue once and for all. It makes me happy. The bold is in direct contradiction to the underlined, and vice versa. If the person is conditioned, and is nothing but their conditioning, they can only act from their conditioning, which negates what peeps say and do, mattering. Peeps would have zero control over what they say and do (the veritable foundation of nonvolition). So saying it matters, is "pouring from the empty into the void". It's the ultimate catch-22. You can't have it both ways, nonvolition, and saying it matters what we do (as if we had any control over what we do). nonvolition must necessarily say that the self (imaginary or otherwise) is but a tiny cog in a huge (Cosmic) mechanism, and cannot do anything except be-do what it is programmed to do.
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Post by laughter on Oct 4, 2017 15:57:09 GMT -5
pshaw. Surely it would make the front page on a slow news day? Fake news. So much fake news. Fake. So fake.
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Post by laughter on Oct 4, 2017 15:57:55 GMT -5
And, as a cultural description it has no difference to your description of finding God at the centre of the mind of man. Well, what I see is God in the self deceptive functioning of mind. After all, self deception is quite miraculous. But a better comparison might be God falling into his own dream and becoming a mass murderer. Concluding that God moves in mysterious ways and must have his reasons would be highly inappropriate.
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Post by laughter on Oct 4, 2017 16:49:13 GMT -5
I'd be interested to know the results of what area of the brain becomes active during such an impassioned belief. I'm sure somebody has done a study on religious devotion and brain activity. Webber's done alot of work on EEG's and meditation. Yeah, someone's probably done the same for prayer. The mind/body states of prayer and meditation have alot in common. In some cases the lines get blurred. For example, Transcendental Meditation is centered on a mantra. It's very similar to the singing and chanting Christians do leading up to the silence during communion. But meditation and prayer each have a different focus. Both are a matter of degree, but prayer is about a merging of centers, while meditation is about a dissolution of perimeter. The resulting states have extremes that are frequent topics of interest here: CC's and absolute samadhi. These share a commonality with each other, and with flow, in that the sense of separation is long gone for at least the duration of the experience. This last link to flow indicates a commonality between prayer, meditation, sports and the appreciation of nature. Among other things.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2017 17:12:19 GMT -5
I have changed your post to the first person because you can only explain to me what you're doing. What you seem to be saying here is that although you understand when pulleys are pulled and levers are levered, you are keeping yourself from admitting that you've felt them. So it's only when your chin is three feet above your head that you feel anything. I can't follow what you are trying to say here. Let me put it a different way. self 1 is our ordinary self, otherwise known as ego (described earlier as the fictitious self). When we are in self 1 "mode", we merely are what we are. This is like an iceberg, that is, the part above the water, we only know the part above the water, we function as-if there is no subconscious (nothing below water level). self 1 doesn't know self 2. self 2 is what-can-see...self 1. self 2 knows it is, and knows self 1 is. But self 2 cannot control self 1, it can only see self 1. when self 2 is present, self 1 can be present, or not. self 2 is ~below water level~. self 2 is real, (more real). self 1 is what responds to the world, is the ~knee-jerk reflex~. If self 2 is present, ~it~ can be a cushion, that is, absorb some of the shock of exterior events. But what usually happens for a long time, when life "sucks", it temporarily obliterates self 2 leaving only self 1. Eventually, after hours, days, weeks or even months, self 2 might show back up, and basically "say": wt____? (I don't know what you mean concerning the 3' up chin...)... What you're calling self 2 is just about being present. If you really and truly don't feel present, like here, in your skin, reading words on a screen, without trying to run anywhere, just noticing your breathing, in.. in.. the sounds rippling through.. in.. in... here, tasting lips, breathing out, chest lifting.. not running anywhere.. laughing at the muscle spasm in the skull.. oh.. Where did she say to go.. oh yeah.. in.. in.. here.. in
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Post by krsnaraja on Oct 4, 2017 17:18:59 GMT -5
I already knew that when Krsna caused to happen the Battle of Kuruksetra..Hundreds of thousands died in that senseless war initiated by Krsna. Who can question God for doing that. Afterall we are all Krsna's creations. God can take away anytime lives. He uses man as His instrument of destruction. He used USA to drop those nuclear bombs in Hiroshima & Nagasaki. We all should question God for doing that. Then we can question our own beliefs that made it necessary to question God. I qustioned God why He caused countless to starve and die of pestilence. I questioned God why He let nature to cause havoc on earth with super cyclones and earthquakes. I questioned God why He gave us cancer. God said it was a way to reduce the world's growing population. He said the world's too over crowded. God said those who will be killed earlier than the others will have their turn to live longer in their next lives. Those who will live longer in this present life will get to live shorter in the next. The first will be the last and the last will be the first says the Bible.
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Post by krsnaraja on Oct 4, 2017 17:24:09 GMT -5
Does the right side of your brain show extreme over activity when writing a perspective of this kind? You're assuming he remembered to turn his EEG on. The EEG-rection was quite very stiff.
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Post by krsnaraja on Oct 4, 2017 17:26:48 GMT -5
I don't know. I haven't had an EEG taken since I can remember. Well, EEGs can cause memory loss. Now I know why many acquired later Alzheimer's after EEGs.
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