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Post by Deleted on Oct 6, 2016 6:32:42 GMT -5
When you decide to start walking there is an initial effort or intention. But then the walking is effortless. You don't need to keep thinking, I must put my left foot in front of my right foot and then my right foot in front of my left. Same with meditation. Effort certainly seems to be involved, and we can talk about life that way, but truthfully whatever happens is an effortless unfolding. If there were no mental chatter ABOUT what's happening, it would become obvious that there is no one making any kind of effort at any time. For people whose internal dialogue has ceased, life continues just as before but without conscious decisions and without any thoughts about effort. Who are you talking about zd? That's not the truth for most people. As for conscious decisions I make them all the time even if they are somewhat effortless. There is still an individual jiva here. It is not possible to be otherwise. Well death would put a stop to it. Sorry I don't subscribe to this "there is no one here" stuff. |
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Post by lolly on Oct 6, 2016 7:03:49 GMT -5
When you decide to start walking there is an initial effort or intention. But then the walking is effortless. You don't need to keep thinking, I must put my left foot in front of my right foot and then my right foot in front of my left. Same with meditation. Effort certainly seems to be involved, and we can talk about life that way, but truthfully whatever happens is an effortless unfolding. If there were no mental chatter ABOUT what's happening, it would become obvious that there is no one making any kind of effort at any time. For people whose internal dialogue has ceased, life continues just as before but without conscious decisions and without any thoughts about effort. I think when we start to 'know' about meditation notions about 'should' there be effort become yes, great effort, or no, never effort, but the actual practice is effortless, but then it takes a lot of effort, and then it doesn't. I don't have any idea about that at all, so I just say if the effort is needed there will be effort, and when it's all roses, there's really no need. When meditation is gone into seriously, it's arduous. In the Buddhist philosophy effort is part of the Eightfold Path itself, and in the real life of my practice, there is a determination, diligence, persistence, endurance etc. As would be integral to anyone's day to day to life. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 6, 2016 7:12:27 GMT -5
Effort certainly seems to be involved, and we can talk about life that way, but truthfully whatever happens is an effortless unfolding. If there were no mental chatter ABOUT what's happening, it would become obvious that there is no one making any kind of effort at any time. For people whose internal dialogue has ceased, life continues just as before but without conscious decisions and without any thoughts about effort. I think when we start to 'know' about meditation notions about 'should' there be effort become yes, great effort, or no, never effort, but the actual practice is effortless, but then it takes a lot of effort, and then it doesn't. I don't have any idea about that at all, so I just say if the effort is needed there will be effort, and when it's all roses, there's really no need. When meditation is gone into seriously, it's arduous. In the Buddhist philosophy effort is part of the Eightfold Path itself, and in the real life of my practice, there is a determination, diligence, persistence, endurance etc. As would be integral to anyone's day to day to life. There might be some who argue, well me actually, that if practice becomes arduous, then this has arisen because of a distortion and corruption of the original teachings. |
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Post by lolly on Oct 6, 2016 8:25:14 GMT -5
I think when we start to 'know' about meditation notions about 'should' there be effort become yes, great effort, or no, never effort, but the actual practice is effortless, but then it takes a lot of effort, and then it doesn't. I don't have any idea about that at all, so I just say if the effort is needed there will be effort, and when it's all roses, there's really no need. When meditation is gone into seriously, it's arduous. In the Buddhist philosophy effort is part of the Eightfold Path itself, and in the real life of my practice, there is a determination, diligence, persistence, endurance etc. As would be integral to anyone's day to day to life. There might be some who argue, well me actually, that if practice becomes arduous, then this has arisen because of a distortion and corruption of the original teachings. I find it ironic that a person who teaches a volitional exercise I understand 'what it is' and have no particular notion of 'how to do it'. How implies will power, will power implies effort. I suspect that notion of 'no effort' is actually the issue of non-volition. T |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Oct 6, 2016 8:32:09 GMT -5
I think when we start to 'know' about meditation notions about 'should' there be effort become yes, great effort, or no, never effort, but the actual practice is effortless, but then it takes a lot of effort, and then it doesn't. I don't have any idea about that at all, so I just say if the effort is needed there will be effort, and when it's all roses, there's really no need. When meditation is gone into seriously, it's arduous. In the Buddhist philosophy effort is part of the Eightfold Path itself, and in the real life of my practice, there is a determination, diligence, persistence, endurance etc. As would be integral to anyone's day to day to life. There might be some who argue, well me actually, that if practice becomes arduous, then this has arisen because of a distortion and corruption of the original teachings. I'll have to go with lolly here. But it's a question of unity or disunity. I cannot see other people or myself except within an essence vs ego/personality paradigm. A false sense of self is the obstruction. If there is no unity, then the effort one makes is the effort to overcome the ~wants~ of ego/personality which are invariance to true self/essence. If there is no struggle, that means there is unity. Unity-as-essence is good. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 6, 2016 8:51:36 GMT -5
There might be some who argue, well me actually, that if practice becomes arduous, then this has arisen because of a distortion and corruption of the original teachings. I find it ironic that a person who teaches a volitional exercise I understand 'what it is' and have no particular notion of 'how to do it'. How implies will power, will power implies effort. I suspect that notion of 'no effort' is actually the issue of non-volition. THow do you do a non volitional exercise? |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 6, 2016 8:57:46 GMT -5
There might be some who argue, well me actually, that if practice becomes arduous, then this has arisen because of a distortion and corruption of the original teachings. I'll have to go with lolly here. But it's a question of unity or disunity. I cannot see other people or myself except within an essence vs ego/personality paradigm. A false sense of self is the obstruction. If there is no unity, then the effort one makes is the effort to overcome the ~wants~ of ego/personality which are invariance to true self/essence. If there is no struggle, that means there is unity. Unity-as-essence is good. But if you go with Lolly you'll be looking for arduous struggling yes? |
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Post by zendancer on Oct 6, 2016 9:29:14 GMT -5
Effort certainly seems to be involved, and we can talk about life that way, but truthfully whatever happens is an effortless unfolding. If there were no mental chatter ABOUT what's happening, it would become obvious that there is no one making any kind of effort at any time. For people whose internal dialogue has ceased, life continues just as before but without conscious decisions and without any thoughts about effort. Who are you talking about zd? That's not the truth for most people. As for conscious decisions I make them all the time even if they are somewhat effortless. There is still an individual jiva here. It is not possible to be otherwise. Well death would put a stop to it. Sorry I don't subscribe to this "there is no one here" stuff. Satch: I didn't say that there is no one here. There is obviously a body/mind, but the body/mind in the absence of reflective thoughts continues to intelligently function. Yes, most people have an incessant internal dialogue that ceaselessly talks about what's happening. A few people, however, have extremely silent minds, and from their perspective it becomes obvious that the internal dialogue is not necessary, and that the internal dialogue obscures what's actually happening to a large degree. I think it was Chilton Pierce in his book "The Crack in the Cosmic Egg" who distinguished what he called "the primary program" that underlies the secondary program of reflective thought. The internal dialogue is like a running commentary that ascribes reasons, motivations, and so forth ABOUT what is happening. This is where the idea of effort, volition, and all other dualistic perception arises. When the internal dialogue ceases, it becomes obvious that the body/mind, as a whole, functions exactly like blood cells, nerve impulses, muscles contractions, etc. We now know that the body/mind makes "decisions" to act slightly before the intellect becomes consciously aware of them. When someone thinks s/he has made a decision to do something, it's already too late. The action was already underway before the intellect became aware of it. Although this body/mind no longer makes any "effort" to limit reflective thought, I now know that the idea of effort, itself, was an illusion to which I was once attached. Probably because I spent a lot of time in the past doing ATA-T, the body/mind often lapses into internal silence, but this has no effect at all upon what's happening. Many times I have "decided" to do something, but an hour or so later realized that my idea did not conform to the primary program as I watch the body/mind do something totally different than what I thought was going to happen. Although I still have an internal dialogue (though minimal compared to what existed in the past), some people, such as Gary Weber, have reported a point in time when the dialogue totally ceased, yet life continued without the kind of conscious decision-making that most people experience. I recently reported about the experience of a high-level airport IT manager whose internal dialogue suddenly stopped one day, and it had no effect at all upon his work performance. He was totally amazed to discover that his previous mental chatter was not necessary. His experience only lasted for one day, whereas other people have reported the same thing happening and continuing indefinitely. It's obviously okay to talk about "effort" and "persistence" to seekers, but I was pointing out that from a perspective of deep internal silence these ideas are seen to be illusory. |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Oct 6, 2016 15:27:54 GMT -5
I'll have to go with lolly here. But it's a question of unity or disunity. I cannot see other people or myself except within an essence vs ego/personality paradigm. A false sense of self is the obstruction. If there is no unity, then the effort one makes is the effort to overcome the ~wants~ of ego/personality which are invariance to true self/essence. If there is no struggle, that means there is unity. Unity-as-essence is good. But if you go with Lolly you'll be looking for arduous struggling yes? The way I follow is an arduous struggle. It is very easy to go with the flow. It is very easy to go the path of least resistance. My way depends upon the transformation of energy, the saving of energy and the creation of a finer energy. If ego/persona/small s self is in control, this is a continual loss of energy, this means one's attention and awareness are continually ~spent~ on what small s self wants (to do, think, feel). Energy expended in this manner is lost forever. However, if one ~takes one's~ attention and awareness ~out of~ the activities of small s self (thinking, feeling, doing), this energy is saved. So the struggle is not in any way a physical struggle, manual struggle, mental struggle, it's the struggle of withdrawal of one's sense of ~being~ from thinking, feeling, doing. Any kind of struggle within the boundary of ego/persona/mask/cultural self/small s self, self vs self, is superfluous. ( That would be split-mind-activity). This relates directly to a recent post of E on the World thread (excellent post which I just responded to). |
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Post by laughter on Oct 6, 2016 16:06:27 GMT -5
Here are my suggestions for sincere seekers on the topic of meditation the first, primary and last being :  As a comic digression, it is amusing that " Kumare" used this in his fake "invocation sutra", but clichés are clichés for a reason, and corporate and military America know the good stuff when they see it.  Open your mind as to what meditation might be for you. It's a rather large tent. There's eyes closed sitting still, or eyes open while active. There's suggestions of various approaches: mantra, breath awareness, watching thoughts, body awareness or just remaining alert and yet open and empty, standing/sitting/resting/moving in/as awareness. It can be fun and interesting to trace the roots of the various prescriptions to the cultures that originally sourced them, such as Japanese or Korean or Tibetan Zen or Indian tantra and in the case of some of the modern prescriptions, the influence of various American and European 19th and 20th century personalities and other developments. But meditation is in the doing, not the learning. One facet common to all of the descriptions is the tendency of the mind to wander, for attention to waiver, while the meditation is ongoing. Also common is the advice that in the noticing of this wandering is exactly when you've returned home, and that there is nothing wrong with you, the moment the method or the meditation in the wandering, and it is this returning home, to yourself in the stillness, as it opens, that the mediation is really all about. I've only my own experience with meditation to base this on, but I've been intensely interested in what others have written about it over the years here and elsewhere. From that I'd say that everyone's meditation is ultimately unique, so experimenting with the various cultures, methods and prescriptions might be hit or miss for you along the way. The questions of effort, results, goals and routine can each get quite a bit more interesting in the consideration even than learning about the culture that sourced your meditation prescriptions and methods. These questions ultimately have no mind answers, and it is in the meditation that you'll discover the resolution to them. These questions can be excellent points of focus for some forms of meditation. Whether or not you've found, and whether or not you're open to the nonconceptual resolutions of those questions, is a question of self-honesty. While you can meditate or pray or chant in a group, and while this can have a profound effect on your practice, ultimately, the question of self-honesty is one that you're on your own with. |
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Post by lolly on Oct 6, 2016 17:02:52 GMT -5
I find it ironic that a person who teaches a volitional exercise I understand 'what it is' and have no particular notion of 'how to do it'. How implies will power, will power implies effort. I suspect that notion of 'no effort' is actually the issue of non-volition. THow do you do a non volitional exercise? In practical terms it entails not doing what you are doing. It isn't an exercise. It's an observation, but only because observation is already the case. This means you can just observe and see what happens without doing anything |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 6, 2016 22:23:05 GMT -5
How do you do a non volitional exercise? In practical terms it entails not doing what you are doing. It isn't an exercise. It's an observation, but only because observation is already the case. This means you can just observe and see what happens without doing anything But there is an intention to observe. A volition to observe. This cannot be disputed. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 6, 2016 22:27:48 GMT -5
But meditation is in the doing, not the learning. One facet common to all of the descriptions is the tendency of the mind to wander, for attention to waiver, while the meditation is ongoing. You've nailed it right there. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 6, 2016 23:03:58 GMT -5
My Guru told me: that child, which is you even now, is your real self (swarupa). Go back to that state of pure being, where the 'I am' is still in its purity before it got contaminated with 'this I am' or 'that I am'. Your burden is of false self-identifications -- abandon them all. My Guru told me -- 'Trust me. I tell you; you are divine. Take it as the absolute truth. Your joy is divine, your suffering is divine too. All comes from God. Remember it always. You are God, your will alone is done'. I did believe him and soon realised how wonderfully true and accurate were his words. I did not condition my mind by thinking: 'I am God, I am wonderful, I am beyond'. I simply followed his instruction which was to focus the mind on pure being 'I am', and stay in it. I used to sit for hours together, with, nothing but the 'I am' in my mind and soon peace and joy and a deep all-embracing love became my normal state. In it all disappeared -- myself, my Guru, the life I lived, the world around me. Only peace remained and unfathomable silence.
Nisargadatta Maharaj
I Am That
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Post by lolly on Oct 7, 2016 2:11:34 GMT -5
In practical terms it entails not doing what you are doing. It isn't an exercise. It's an observation, but only because observation is already the case. This means you can just observe and see what happens without doing anything But there is an intention to observe. A volition to observe. This cannot be disputed. Aren't you already observing? |
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