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Post by zendancer on Sept 9, 2016 9:53:58 GMT -5
We have hundreds of threads dealing with relatively arcane aspects of the spiritual path, so it might be helpful to consolidate important advice in one single thread. For anyone who has had significant insights into existential issues, what advice would you give sincere seekers concerning how to find what they are searching for? Or, what advice given by spiritual teachers or sages have you read that you think would be helpful? I'll start off the list, and others can add to it:
1. Become aware of mindtalk (the internal dialogue), and investigate how it influences your ideas, feelings, and actions.
2. Question the validity of all your ideas about the world.
3. Spend time being silent, attentive, and still.
4. Learn to look without naming or thinking about what you are looking at.
5. Regularly spend some time alone in nature (even if its only a walk in a park).
6. Learn to meditate, and spend some time in meditation each day.
7. Contemplate, rather than think about, what you want to know.
8. Learn to live without expectations or judgments regarding either other people or yourself.
9. Become psychologically present as often as possible.
10. Keep an open mind.
11. Be honest with yourself, and admit what you don't know.
12. Be skeptical of any claims that you haven't verified for yourself.
13. Trust yourself, and have faith that you can find the truth.
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Post by laughter on Sept 13, 2016 6:32:52 GMT -5
I'd amplify (11) with a caveat to (7) in reference to (2). (14) Allow for the possibility that some beliefs you may harbor about yourself and/or the world are so much a fabric of your ongoing state of mind that you don't even recognize them as beliefs, and perhaps you even just take them for granted as unquestionable. These next two might be particularly helpful for folks with a natural affinity toward intellectual thought. (15) Don't suppress thoughts that you might become conscious of that directly express these beliefs. (16) If you don't suppress existential thought it will inevitably express as one or more seeming contradictions. It's true that the thinking mind can't resolve these, but it is possible to get clear on what these contradictions are. This is mind finding it's limits in the form of paradox. This is when meditation and nonconceptual contemplation can begin to get very interesting, especially if pursued with energetic focus.  |
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Post by wei sa on Sept 13, 2016 8:47:55 GMT -5
Good to have this kind of thread and good advices so far. This older thread also relates to this topic. And here's Shawn Nevins' list of "Things to Do" for the seeker. I haven't had any significant insights so I can't really put anything out there as "advice", but I'll just add a couple more that I'm having some kind of pull towards : - Experimentation. Doing random stuff, mixing things up... Wearing a blindfold or other sensory deprivation for a day, making a vow of silence for a day, going to beg on the street etc...
- Becoming an observer. Not only of mindtalk and mental activity, but everything in your life - your behaviour, social interactions, etc. "Become a passer-by" as someone once said. Perhaps ZD's points 1, 4 and 9 already covered it, but just wanted to add it with a different wording.
- Following different teachers broadly. Rather than reading all the books and watch all the YouTube videos of one teacher, it can be powerful to hear the same message through many different voices and with many different vocabularies - perhaps it can facilitate the transmission of something beyond the words. (I'm sure the opposite advice might be equally valid, though.)
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Post by wei sa on Sept 13, 2016 9:08:47 GMT -5
Also, if it doesn't clutter the thread up too much, I'd like to discuss these two point from ZD a bit: 7. Contemplate, rather than think about, what you want to know. I think what contemplation is and how it's done is not necessarily obvious, so it might be useful to expand on this a bit? I asked pretty much the same question in the koan contemplation -thread, so I suppose I more or less know your answer - bring the question to mind and then meditate or ATA etc. But personally I have so far never had the feeling that "contemplation" (i.e. anything other than "regular" meditation) is happening. Sorry if this opens up a bunch of cans of worms (e.g. split mind, volition etc... ) - but how could one learn to do that? This is a fairly practical thing for me, as IMO I have been pretty judgemental and controlling as long as I remember, and have also been aware of both tendencies for several years now. But awareness/noticing has so far not produced a significant change. Trying to be non-judgemental can give rise to a second-order judgement, when noticing a judgement arising gives rise to a judgement about the judgement - i.e. loads of resistance (or "split-mind insanity" in Enigma's lingo). This feedback of resistance is perhaps not so difficult to dissipate by not trying too hard to be non-judgemental - but so far in my experience the original judgemental impulse still rises as usual... |
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Post by zendancer on Sept 13, 2016 11:34:11 GMT -5
Also, if it doesn't clutter the thread up too much, I'd like to discuss these two point from ZD a bit: 7. Contemplate, rather than think about, what you want to know. I think what contemplation is and how it's done is not necessarily obvious, so it might be useful to expand on this a bit? I asked pretty much the same question in the koan contemplation -thread, so I suppose I more or less know your answer - bring the question to mind and then meditate or ATA etc. But personally I have so far never had the feeling that "contemplation" (i.e. anything other than "regular" meditation) is happening. Sorry if this opens up a bunch of cans of worms (e.g. split mind, volition etc... ) - but how could one learn to do that? This is a fairly practical thing for me, as IMO I have been pretty judgemental and controlling as long as I remember, and have also been aware of both tendencies for several years now. But awareness/noticing has so far not produced a significant change. Trying to be non-judgemental can give rise to a second-order judgement, when noticing a judgement arising gives rise to a judgement about the judgement - i.e. loads of resistance (or "split-mind insanity" in Enigma's lingo). This feedback of resistance is perhaps not so difficult to dissipate by not trying too hard to be non-judgemental - but so far in my experience the original judgemental impulse still rises as usual... Here's an example of what I mean by contemplation. At one point I began to wonder what babies see when they look at the world without concept of form and void and without words. It was obvious that they see "something" because they don't try to crawl through physical barriers. Dogs and cats obviously see the same way because they walk around trees and intelligently interact with the world, but what do they see? What does the world look like if concepts are totally absent? One day I was thinking about this issue, and I began staring at objects in a state of not-knowing wonderment. After staring for a while, thoughts about the issue would reappear, and I would return to thinking about it. I said to myself, "Okay, a baby doesn;t know the word "tree" and it hasn't even imagined that a tree is separate from the unified field of being which includes the tree, so what does it see?" After formulating this kind of variant of the question, I went back to staring intensely at various "objects" such as trees, clouds, etc. After two hours of doing this, I looked at an airplane in the sky and thought, "A baby hasn't yet learned to see an airplane as an airplane, and it must therefore see the airplane and the sky in some undivided way. What does it see?" As I stared at the airplane and the sky as if they were one, the space between me and the airplane suddenly and momentarily collapsed, and there was a strange internal visceral shift accompanied by an odd emotional response. The collapse did not go all the way, but it preceded a total collapse that occurred shortly thereafter. After the total collapse, it was quite clear what babies and animals see when they look at the world. IOW, the intellectual questioning led to an intense sort of ATA-T that eventually led to a radical shift in mental functioning. It freed the body/mind so that it could then see the world totally without concepts. As for breaking the habit of judgmentalness, expectation, fantasy, etc., the first task is catching the mental habit in action, and then using the judgment or expectation like a dharma bell to shift attention away from the idea. If we look at someone, and a verbal judgment arises, such as, "he's weird, ugly, skinny, fat, etc", we see the judgment and then shift attention away from it. Particular realizations can break this habit instantly and completely, but until then, we do the next best thing--shift attention and refuse to follow the thought. |
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Post by wei sa on Sept 16, 2016 8:19:41 GMT -5
Here's an example of what I mean by contemplation... Thanks ZD, very helpful pointers. That contemplation example is particularly interesting, as it suggests that thinking can actually be used to push the inquiry out of the domain of thought - kind of intelligence devouring itself. This seems to relate also to what Laughter, wrote, esp. #16. Certain kind of sustained focus (or "one-pointedness") seems to be the key for this to happen, and perhaps it is the lack of this that often leads to the so-called "Too Much Thinking", i.e. endless theorising, speculation, etc more "indulgent" forms of spiritual thought that can sometimes get a bit out of hand at a discussion board such as this... |
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Post by Reefs on Sept 16, 2016 10:24:10 GMT -5
We have hundreds of threads dealing with relatively arcane aspects of the spiritual path, so it might be helpful to consolidate important advice in one single thread. For anyone who has had significant insights into existential issues, what advice would you give sincere seekers concerning how to find what they are searching for? Or, what advice given by spiritual teachers or sages have you read that you think would be helpful? I'll start off the list, and others can add to it: 1. Become aware of mindtalk (the internal dialogue), and investigate how it influences your ideas, feelings, and actions. 2. Question the validity of all your ideas about the world. 3. Spend time being silent, attentive, and still. 4. Learn to look without naming or thinking about what you are looking at. 5. Regularly spend some time alone in nature (even if its only a walk in a park). 6. Learn to meditate, and spend some time in meditation each day. 7. Contemplate, rather than think about, what you want to know. 8. Learn to live without expectations or judgments regarding either other people or yourself. 9. Become psychologically present as often as possible. 10. Keep an open mind. 11. Be honest with yourself, and admit what you don't know. 12. Be skeptical of any claims that you haven't verified for yourself. 13. Trust yourself, and have faith that you can find the truth. 14. Just relax. There's nothing serious going on here. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2016 20:59:21 GMT -5
Also, if it doesn't clutter the thread up too much, I'd like to discuss these two point from ZD a bit: 7. Contemplate, rather than think about, what you want to know. I think what contemplation is and how it's done is not necessarily obvious, so it might be useful to expand on this a bit? I asked pretty much the same question in the koan contemplation -thread, so I suppose I more or less know your answer - bring the question to mind and then meditate or ATA etc. But personally I have so far never had the feeling that "contemplation" (i.e. anything other than "regular" meditation) is happening. Deep reflective-thought until an original-thought arrives(bringing new life) would sum-up contemplation from my "I's" viewpoint. It seems when the ego is lessened(relaxed) magic happens Visa. (ego can only relax... not make it happen) The arrival into the prior-state of Mind is what brings about our minds spontaneous 'Aha's!' |
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Post by japhy on Sept 21, 2016 3:07:24 GMT -5
If nothing of the other advice works:
1. Give up.
2. Give up the frustration which comes with giving up.
3. Do what is there to do.
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Post by wei sa on Sept 21, 2016 8:12:15 GMT -5
Also, if it doesn't clutter the thread up too much, I'd like to discuss these two point from ZD a bit: I think what contemplation is and how it's done is not necessarily obvious, so it might be useful to expand on this a bit? I asked pretty much the same question in the koan contemplation -thread, so I suppose I more or less know your answer - bring the question to mind and then meditate or ATA etc. But personally I have so far never had the feeling that "contemplation" (i.e. anything other than "regular" meditation) is happening. Deep reflective-thought until an original-thought arrives(bringing new life) would sum-up contemplation from my "I's" viewpoint. It seems when the ego is lessened(relaxed) magic happens Visa.(ego can only relax... not make it happen) The arrival into the prior-state of Mind is what brings about our minds spontaneous 'Aha's!' although I've noticed that in the recent months I've become more wary about using the ego-concept, as it seems to lead very easily into externalising some thoughts or patterns of thought into some kind of devil sitting on our shoulder, which seems like confused split-mind manoeuvring. I mean, behaviour happens, thoughts and other mind-stuff happens, and some kinds of patterns can be seen in all of them - but where's this ego in the end and how can it lessen or relax? |
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Post by quinn on Sept 21, 2016 8:36:07 GMT -5
Deep reflective-thought until an original-thought arrives(bringing new life) would sum-up contemplation from my "I's" viewpoint. It seems when the ego is lessened(relaxed) magic happens Visa.(ego can only relax... not make it happen) The arrival into the prior-state of Mind is what brings about our minds spontaneous 'Aha's!' although I've noticed that in the recent months I've become more wary about using the ego-concept, as it seems to lead very easily into externalising some thoughts or patterns of thought into some kind of devil sitting on our shoulder, which seems like confused split-mind manoeuvring. I mean, behaviour happens, thoughts and other mind-stuff happens, and some kinds of patterns can be seen in all of them - but where's this ego in the end and how can it lessen or relax? That's a good question, Visa. From my perspective, it can't, but mind can. Mind can lose interest in egoic thoughts and not give them attention. For me, this became a possibility as the validity of those kinds of thoughts came into question. In other words, I began to distrust them. The fact that it's mind mistrusting mind is kind of odd, I know. But I'm okay with that. |
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Post by wei sa on Sept 21, 2016 8:36:36 GMT -5
I haven't had any significant insights so I can't really put anything out there as "advice", but How do you know that you never had a significant insight? What makes ZD or enigmas or Haikus insights more significant than yours? Are you not the only one to "have" real insights? Well, I meant that I still feel like I'm a separate self (unlike, from what I can gather from a distance, ZD or Enigma (don't know who Haiku is unless it's Hakuin)); and I haven't even had any CC/kensho/unity-consciousness/woo-woo -experiences, which many other folks here have. I suspect ZD was primarily referring to these kind of things with "significant insight" in the OP. Admittedly I have encountered other fellow seekers (e.g. here) who seem to be caught in some confusions/delusions that AFAIK I am not, so I suppose I'm not completely devoid of insight. But so far it seems to be largely intellectual, which I think is in the end a pretty weak currency in this area. Of course ultimately there is "no-one" to have significant insights nor is there any such things as significant or insignificant, but like ZD in the OP, I was speaking from a relative context where these concepts still make relative sense. Without maintaining some level of illusion there's very little about the "path" that can even be discussed! We can remember that Ramana's deepest teaching was given in silence... If nothing of the other advice works: 1. Give up. 2. Give up the frustration which comes with giving up. 3. Do what is there to do. Does this mean some of the anxiety you were discussing in the "What to do?" -thread has passed or transformed? |
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Post by wei sa on Sept 21, 2016 9:06:36 GMT -5
Maybe so, although I've noticed that in the recent months I've become more wary about using the ego-concept, as it seems to lead very easily into externalising some thoughts or patterns of thought into some kind of devil sitting on our shoulder, which seems like confused split-mind manoeuvring. I mean, behaviour happens, thoughts and other mind-stuff happens, and some kinds of patterns can be seen in all of them - but where's this ego in the end and how can it lessen or relax? That's a good question, Visa. From my perspective, it can't, but mind can. Mind can lose interest in egoic thoughts and not give them attention. For me, this became a possibility as the validity of those kinds of thoughts came into question. In other words, I began to distrust them. The fact that it's mind mistrusting mind is kind of odd, I know. But I'm okay with that. Yup indeed... I think both the idea of the "ego" and the idea that it can loosen or relax are actually valid pointers, but I think they're very easily and commonly misinterpreted in ways that create new traps. I'd be happy if something like what you described would happen to me as well, although I suspect the way it's likely to play out might be different in my case. I've dug myself into a bit of a hole by being pretty intensely intellectual as long as I remember and indulging in a lot of wanky thought-manoeurving such as western philosophy. So when I watched these Byron Katie -videos on Youtube where some of the people seemed to have of notable insights from questions such as "can you absolutely know that <the thought/belief> is true" or from the turnarounds, it made me think that I've dug myself too deeply in my head for that to be likely to happen for me. That is, the fundamental relativity of thoughts/beliefs and the knowledge that we project onto others have been intellectually pretty clear for me for so long that I can very easily question the validity of my thoughts/beliefs on the mind-level, but it doesn't tend to sink any deeper. I might be the kind of person who needs to encounter harder lessons for really opening up... |
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Post by quinn on Sept 21, 2016 9:39:02 GMT -5
That's a good question, Visa. From my perspective, it can't, but mind can. Mind can lose interest in egoic thoughts and not give them attention. For me, this became a possibility as the validity of those kinds of thoughts came into question. In other words, I began to distrust them. The fact that it's mind mistrusting mind is kind of odd, I know. But I'm okay with that. Yup indeed... I think both the idea of the "ego" and the idea that it can loosen or relax are actually valid pointers, but I think they're very easily and commonly misinterpreted in ways that create new traps. I'd be happy if something like what you described would happen to me as well, although I suspect the way it's likely to play out might be different in my case. I've dug myself into a bit of a hole by being pretty intensely intellectual as long as I remember and indulging in a lot of wanky thought-manoeurving such as western philosophy. So when I watched these Byron Katie -videos on Youtube where some of the people seemed to have of notable insights from questions such as "can you absolutely know that <the thought/belief> is true" or from the turnarounds, it made me think that I've dug myself too deeply in my head for that to be likely to happen for me. That is, the fundamental relativity of thoughts/beliefs and the knowledge that we project onto others have been intellectually pretty clear for me for so long that I can very easily question the validity of my thoughts/beliefs on the mind-level, but it doesn't tend to sink any deeper. I might be the kind of person who needs to encounter harder lessons for really opening up... Ooh. Ouch.  So you already distrust thinking so much that you distrust the distrust because you don't actually believe the distrust (on a deep level)? |
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Post by laughter on Sept 21, 2016 10:03:28 GMT -5
That's a good question, Visa. From my perspective, it can't, but mind can. Mind can lose interest in egoic thoughts and not give them attention. For me, this became a possibility as the validity of those kinds of thoughts came into question. In other words, I began to distrust them. The fact that it's mind mistrusting mind is kind of odd, I know. But I'm okay with that. Yup indeed... I think both the idea of the "ego" and the idea that it can loosen or relax are actually valid pointers, but I think they're very easily and commonly misinterpreted in ways that create new traps. I'd be happy if something like what you described would happen to me as well, although I suspect the way it's likely to play out might be different in my case. I've dug myself into a bit of a hole by being pretty intensely intellectual as long as I remember and indulging in a lot of wanky thought-manoeurving such as western philosophy. So when I watched these Byron Katie -videos on Youtube where some of the people seemed to have of notable insights from questions such as "can you absolutely know that <the thought/belief> is true" or from the turnarounds, it made me think that I've dug myself too deeply in my head for that to be likely to happen for me. That is, the fundamental relativity of thoughts/beliefs and the knowledge that we project onto others have been intellectually pretty clear for me for so long that I can very easily question the validity of my thoughts/beliefs on the mind-level, but it doesn't tend to sink any deeper. I might be the kind of person who needs to encounter harder lessons for really opening up... Artists routinely enter states of body/mind that would blow other peeps away. That's not to say that there's no potential socks-knockin' woo-woo in your future ..  .. but what you're opening up to here reminds me of two different things I read from Adyashanti. There's this on unity consciousness experiences: The merging experience is very pleasant and very beautiful, and you may or may not ever have it. If you have a particular type of body-mind, you might experience having it every five minutes. If you are another type of body-mind, you might have it every five lifetimes. If means nothing whether or not this happens or how often. I have met many people who can merge at the drop of a hat, and they are about as free as a dog chasing its tail in a cage. Merging has nothing to do with being free or actually having any idea what Oneness really is. Oneness simply means that everything is the One. Everything is That, and everything always was That. When there is a very deep knowing that everything is One, then the movement of the me trying to find a past experience ceases. Movement is cut off. Seeking is cut off. The seeker is cut off. Realization cuts everything off all at once. Every experience that you will ever have is the One, whether that experience is merging or having to go to the bathroom. Even when ti's beating a stick on the floor and saying, "This is it, This is the Buddha. This is enlightened mind. It doesn't get more enlightened that this!" It is all God. para 11, chapter 13, "Spiritual Addiction". .. and then there's this on ego (which might be an echo chamber we're in  ): It's as if everything that's happening in a human being, especially a human being who is interested in being spiritual, gets used as proof of the existence of an ego that must be annihilated. And yet nobody can find it. I have yet to have somebody show me the ego. I've seen lots of thoughts, feelings, and emotions. I've watched expressions of anger, joy, depression and bliss, but I have yet to have one person present me with the ego. Many people present me with an assumption that because all these things exist, there must be a fall guy, somebody or something in themselves to blame. That's the common understanding about ego. But that is not ego. Things are sometimes as simple as they appear. Sometimes a thought is just a thought, a feeling only a feeling, and an action just an action, with no ego in it. Now the ego that exists, if there is any ego at all, is the thought that ego is there. But there is no evidence whatsoever for this ego's existence. Everything is just arising spontaneously, and if there is any ego at all, it is just this particular movement of mind that says, "It's mine". Now usually this thought, "It's mine," follows the arising of a thought or emotion. It might be, "I feel confusion -- it's mine," or "I feel jealous -- it's mine", or in response to whatever other experience is arising, "It belongs to me". One thinks there was ego present, and it caused this thought or feeling or confusion. Yet every time we go directly back to find the ego, we find that it was not there prior to thought but followed afterward. It's an interpretation of an event, of a given thought or emotions. It is the after-the-fact assumption that "it's mine." Ego is also the after-the-fact interpretation that says, "It's not mine," the rejection of a thought or feeling. It is easy to see that such a position implies that there is somebody there who it doesn't belong to. That's the world of duality. It's my though, my confusion, or whatever it is, or it's not my thought, not my confusion, not mine. Both of these are movements or interpretations of what is. Ego is only this interpretation, this movement of mind, ansd that is why nobody can find it. It's like a ghost. It's just a particularly conditioned movement of mind. From "Emptiness Dancing", Chapter 11 "Ego", para's 3-5
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.. but what you're opening up to here reminds me of two different things I read from Adyashanti.
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