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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2016 0:01:13 GMT -5
I'm not really sure what exact weak points he was emphasizing and will leave that to you to suss out. But I like his suggestion that, for those who are especially clever, there are garrulous ways to avoid addressing them. It had me thinking about honesty v. "honesty" this morning. We can express vulnerability and such and not really be vulnerable. Tricks of the trade. The trade being protection of ego identification. Not long ago I read this exercise in a book, maybe you will like it. It's about 'qualities', I mean non-material things.. "I am going to suggest an exercise that may help you. Take some quality and sit still for a few minutes and empty out all material associations. For example, take the color yellow. This will evoke the image of a yellow object or a yellow flower or (...) Throw away any such images. Then your mind may turn to the idea of light as a vibration. (...) Push (these ideas) out of your mind. (...) If you really try, you will have glimpses of a reality in the bare yellowness of yellow. Then go on to a more inward quality like honesty. (...) Send away everything that has any kind of materiality and remain with: the honesty of honesty."I tried it about 'sincerity' for a few minutes and forgot it.. then after a few hours while walking I had a small realization  .. ..is a solid and bare capacity to experience what we really are.. honesty that is honest can't not love everything that approaches it, even vibrations that on any other day may activate a resistance.. the honesty of honesty is multi-layered in that respect in that it can keep swallowing what is, indefinitely.. ... welcome. |
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Post by zendancer on Oct 1, 2016 5:09:45 GMT -5
Yes, many people are amazed when they are asked to do the thought experiment regarding #2. The first time I heard it, a teacher asked a group of people I was with to remember some vivid experience from the past. Then, he asked them if the awareness that was present during that experience was any different than the awareness of the present moment. Then, he asked them if it had changed in any way, or if it had aged. Many people in the group expressed astonishment at what was clearly a revelation. Regarding #1, I agree with Reefs. I doubt that anyone can viscerally grasp the truth of that without a major experience or realization. The intellect cannot understand it until it has been informed by a non-conceptual seeing. Just curiously, neuroscientists say that when we remember something, we do not remember the original happening, we merely remember the last time we remembered it (this has to do with neuroplasticity). I doubt this concerning a "vivid experience from the past", but for ordinary memory, I'd say yes, quite possible. (I haven't yet done #1 or #2, will do so now. But "if it had changed in any way" is pretty significant for me. From my earliest memories, I am the same now as I was then [in the deepest sense of "self", or not-knowing exactly how to say that, maybe just say in a manner of speaking]). Edit: At this posting I hadn't yet read #1 or #2. Did them. So already spoke to #2. All healthy babies are born with pristine awareness. Collecting sensory data VIA awareness is what makes for differentiation, otherwise known as conditioning. (Although everyone/variously is born with innate potential, not everyone is a Mozart). The memory of a vivid experience exercise doesn't have to be done with an extremely early memory (which may be faulty). It can be something that happened when one was a teenager, when there are often many vivid memories of events. The point is to realize that awareness, itself, does not change. The "pristine awareness" that babies are born with is exactly the same pristine awareness that exists in this moment for anyone at any time. The reason that people feel that they are the same now as in the past is because what they are, in truth, is unchanging awareness, which does not age. |
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Post by zendancer on Oct 1, 2016 5:23:12 GMT -5
what does an understanding of unchanging awareness mean?and some talk about resting in it, like all of the time.. whatever that means or turning and looking back at itself.. whatever that means It means living without the filter(s) of conditioning. SDP: This statement strikes me as a step too far. An understanding or a realization is an understanding or a realization; it doesn't mean that conditioning has been changed or removed, or is absent. Seeing that awareness is unchanging simply reveals something important about the nature of reality. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2016 5:42:13 GMT -5
what does an understanding of unchanging awareness mean? and some talk about resting in it, like all of the time.. whatever that means or turning and looking back at itself.. whatever that means You being a mad grammarian, nonetheless skipped right over that essential adjective I used: visceral. Have you ever done a stereogram? for me it was less like the "Aha!" understanding you get from solving a puzzle, but more like a deja vu feeling of "I've been here before" |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Oct 1, 2016 8:01:45 GMT -5
It means living without the filter(s) of conditioning. SDP: This statement strikes me as a step too far. An understanding or a realization is an understanding or a realization; it doesn't mean that conditioning has been changed or removed, or is absent. Seeing that awareness is unchanging simply reveals something important about the nature of reality. OK, I agree. By saying "living without the filter(s) of conditioning", I wasn't clear. I didn't mean necessarily changed or removed or absent. I meant the conditioning is not an obstruction. Living through awareness is kind-of like living in the dark with night-vision-goggles. The first analogy that came to mind was, living in the fog of conditioning, living through awareness is like rising above the fog. (But I like the night vision goggles example better). I've given the teeter-totter example before. On one side is small s self (ego/persona/etc.), on the "other side" is pristine awareness. Most people, after a certain age, live pretty exclusively through small s self, so that side of the teeter-totter is down. But if one explores these kinds of questions, does inquiry, etc., one can begin to become aware, aware of this ground of ~aware-ing~. And so a sense of ~who/what one is~ shifts to the pristine awareness side of the teeter-totter, your center of gravity/default "setting" shifts. The way I put it is, you no longer say "I" to small s self. That doesn't mean it isn't there, it just ceases to be the lens you look at life through, it ceases to be an obstruction, you can live without the distorting lens of conditioning. And if you [can] do this, eventually, probably even years, this old small s self begins to fade away. This is the distinction I made above in reply to maxdp (2nd post this page), when the small s side of the teeter-totter is down, active, your attention and/or awareness is captured and held by people, places, things; meaning, small s self is the hook, It is what is lived through (and then awareness/attention is passive). But if you live through attention/awareness, you are off the hook, no longer hooked-by-life, led around like a bull with a ring in its nose. (Then awareness/attention is active, and small s self is passive). |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2016 9:44:59 GMT -5
SDP: This statement strikes me as a step too far. An understanding or a realization is an understanding or a realization; it doesn't mean that conditioning has been changed or removed, or is absent. Seeing that awareness is unchanging simply reveals something important about the nature of reality. OK, I agree. By saying "living without the filter(s) of conditioning", I wasn't clear. I didn't mean necessarily changed or removed or absent. I meant the conditioning is not an obstruction. Living through awareness is kind-of like living in the dark with night-vision-goggles. The first analogy that came to mind was, living in the fog of conditioning, living through awareness is like rising above the fog. (But I like the night vision goggles example better). I've given the teeter-totter example before. On one side is small s self (ego/persona/etc.), on the "other side" is pristine awareness. Most people, after a certain age, live pretty exclusively through small s self, so that side of the teeter-totter is down. But if one explores these kinds of questions, does inquiry, etc., one can begin to become aware, aware of this ground of ~aware-ing~. And so a sense of ~who/what one is~ shifts to the pristine awareness side of the teeter-totter, your center of gravity/default "setting" shifts. The way I put it is, you no longer say "I" to small s self. That doesn't mean it isn't there, it just ceases to be the lens you look at life through, it ceases to be an obstruction, you can live without the distorting lens of conditioning. And if you [can] do this, eventually, probably even years, this old small s self begins to fade away. This is the distinction I made above in reply to maxdp (2nd post this page), when the small s side of the teeter-totter is down, active, your attention and/or awareness is captured and held by people, places, things; meaning, small s self is the hook, It is what is lived through (and then awareness/attention is passive). But if you live through attention/awareness, you are off the hook, no longer hooked-by-life, led around like a bull with a ring in its nose. (Then awareness/attention is active, and small s self is passive). The only conditioning that is changing, usually, is the conditioning that causes identification with emotions and thoughts and ideas and habits. (just a short summary of what you said here,I think). In other words, an "enlightened" (or maybe a better word is freed),person can still be prone to express anger, abuse etc, and even as a human beiing, be a pain in the proverbial afterlife...;-), or addicted to cigarettes or food etc. |
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Post by maxdprophet on Oct 1, 2016 10:19:37 GMT -5
It means living without the filter(s) of conditioning. SDP: This statement strikes me as a step too far. An understanding or a realization is an understanding or a realization; it doesn't mean that conditioning has been changed or removed, or is absent. Seeing that awareness is unchanging simply reveals something important about the nature of reality. But there's "realization informs mind" which to me is more than just a reference to how realization contributes to understanding. It also means that the formula of conditioning changes. Not necessarily noticeable immediately. After a while of not resisting 'what is' constantly, the quality of conditioning also changes. I'm assuming this is what 'purification' refers to. I've heard it said that the process of conditioning ceases, but I doubt it. It's just unfiltered. |
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Post by wei sa on Oct 2, 2016 22:14:42 GMT -5
Which challenge do you mean exactly? I think I might have misunderstood it. Haha, it's a funny image that your head is in the mouth of a tiger that's not hungry enough. So, your head is resting on the huge tongue of a giant tiger, the tongue is wet and your head is drenched with saliva, the tiger's heavy breathing rattles in your skull - and then nothing, this situation just continues as the tiger cannot be bothered to bite. Sorry, I just wanted to spend a moment imagining this situation!  I'm not really sure what exact weak points he was emphasizing and will leave that to you to suss out. But I like his suggestion that, for those who are especially clever, there are garrulous ways to avoid addressing them. Yep, but don't those garrulous ways of avoiding addressing weak points etc work by revving up the thought-machine and engaging in intellectual speculation/analysis or other thinking? So one thing that maybe confused me about the discussion then is that if the weak point in question is over-reliance on intellect/thinking, then I don't see how one can engage in those avoidance-mechanisms while maintaining any degree of clarity/self-honesty. That is, if I have noticed that I have the habit of thinking/analysing/speculating too much, and I notice that I am trying to think/analyse/speculate the issue away, then unless I'm completely unconscious, a massive dharma-bell surely rings and is not easily ignored. Yeah, but I think vulnerability/openness is not something one can bring about simply by willing it, and so probably not worth worrying about too much (like you more or less said in your first post here). I think vulnerability/openness is the "natural state", and it comes about when obstacles that are blocking it - defence mechanisms, compensation patterns etc - have dissipated, and a sufficient natural feeling of "safety" has been established. This dissipation can probably be facilitated by noticing/observing (thoughts, beliefs, feelings, behaviours etc), meditation, ATA, relaxation, Katie-esque methods etc - and possibly also by putting oneself in "exposing" situations that somehow externally probe vulnerability even if it doesn't go too deep. But the present state of vulnerability/openness (or effortlessness/honesty/sincerity) is what it is, and thinking about it too much is more likely to just become another obstacle to it (i.e. thinking about it can create more anxiety and hence reduce the feeling of safety that facilitates vulnerability/openness). |
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Post by wei sa on Oct 2, 2016 22:33:07 GMT -5
SDP: This statement strikes me as a step too far. An understanding or a realization is an understanding or a realization; it doesn't mean that conditioning has been changed or removed, or is absent. Seeing that awareness is unchanging simply reveals something important about the nature of reality. But there's "realization informs mind" which to me is more than just a reference to how realization contributes to understanding. It also means that the formula of conditioning changes. Not necessarily noticeable immediately. After a while of not resisting 'what is' constantly, the quality of conditioning also changes. I'm assuming this is what 'purification' refers to. I've heard it said that the process of conditioning ceases, but I doubt it. It's just unfiltered. This might be true, but I think one common trap in the spiritual domain is that when one starts to enter an area of contemplation that gives little food for thought - e.g. that of the unchanging awareness, which, as Reefs put it, has "nothing to conceptualize" - one starts to get fidgety and automatically gravitates towards an area that gives more food for thought - e.g. that of conditioning, which is an endless resource for indulgent speculation. Some Zen-folks advice that "don't check", i.e. get rid of the habit of constantly checking your thoughts about something - how you're doing, your likes and dislikes, what you think of something etc. I think conditioning is a classic thing that one can be in a habit of constantly "checking" when on a spiritual path - what kind of conditioning one perceives that one has, is it desirable or not, is it changing (or "improving") or not, how is it likely to change in the future if this or that happens etc. I think I'm a bit caught in this too. But ultimately it might be better to take the handbrake off and stop this. |
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Post by zendancer on Oct 3, 2016 9:59:33 GMT -5
But there's "realization informs mind" which to me is more than just a reference to how realization contributes to understanding. It also means that the formula of conditioning changes. Not necessarily noticeable immediately. After a while of not resisting 'what is' constantly, the quality of conditioning also changes. I'm assuming this is what 'purification' refers to. I've heard it said that the process of conditioning ceases, but I doubt it. It's just unfiltered. This might be true, but I think one common trap in the spiritual domain is that when one starts to enter an area of contemplation that gives little food for thought - e.g. that of the unchanging awareness, which, as Reefs put it, has "nothing to conceptualize" - one starts to get fidgety and automatically gravitates towards an area that gives more food for thought - e.g. that of conditioning, which is an endless resource for indulgent speculation. Some Zen-folks advice that "don't check", i.e. get rid of the habit of constantly checking your thoughts about something - how you're doing, your likes and dislikes, what you think of something etc. I think conditioning is a classic thing that one can be in a habit of constantly "checking" when on a spiritual path - what kind of conditioning one perceives that one has, is it desirable or not, is it changing (or "improving") or not, how is it likely to change in the future if this or that happens etc. I think I'm a bit caught in this too. But ultimately it might be better to take the handbrake off and stop this. I agree. The realization that awareness does not change or age, etc. is a relatively minor realization, and it may not have any effect at all upon how one lives life on a daily basis. By contrast, "passing through the gateless gate" (seeing through the illusion of separateness and realizing unity), SR, and other such realizations can profoundly affect one's daily life. Seeing that awareness does not change or age, by itself, rarely leads to a lessening of conditioned responses to the world. It's more like a clue, or a pointer, to the fact that things are not what they seem. OTOH, accepting "what is," becoming present and attentive, ceasing to fantasize, relinquishing "checking," and other similar changes in mental habits can lead to all kinds of experiences and realizations that will significantly change how one interacts with the world. |
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Post by maxdprophet on Oct 5, 2016 14:01:36 GMT -5
I'm not really sure what exact weak points he was emphasizing and will leave that to you to suss out. But I like his suggestion that, for those who are especially clever, there are garrulous ways to avoid addressing them. Yep, but don't those garrulous ways of avoiding addressing weak points etc work by revving up the thought-machine and engaging in intellectual speculation/analysis or other thinking? So one thing that maybe confused me about the discussion then is that if the weak point in question is over-reliance on intellect/thinking, then I don't see how one can engage in those avoidance-mechanisms while maintaining any degree of clarity/self-honesty. That is, if I have noticed that I have the habit of thinking/analysing/speculating too much, and I notice that I am trying to think/analyse/speculate the issue away, then unless I'm completely unconscious, a massive dharma-bell surely rings and is not easily ignored. Yeah, but I think vulnerability/openness is not something one can bring about simply by willing it, and so probably not worth worrying about too much (like you more or less said in your first post here). I think vulnerability/openness is the "natural state", and it comes about when obstacles that are blocking it - defence mechanisms, compensation patterns etc - have dissipated, and a sufficient natural feeling of "safety" has been established. This dissipation can probably be facilitated by noticing/observing (thoughts, beliefs, feelings, behaviours etc), meditation, ATA, relaxation, Katie-esque methods etc - and possibly also by putting oneself in "exposing" situations that somehow externally probe vulnerability even if it doesn't go too deep. But the present state of vulnerability/openness (or effortlessness/honesty/sincerity) is what it is, and thinking about it too much is more likely to just become another obstacle to it (i.e. thinking about it can create more anxiety and hence reduce the feeling of safety that facilitates vulnerability/openness). There's no reason to ignore the bell. Just listen to it until you can't hear it anymore. And then, silence. In other words, a text based discussion forum is probably the exact opposite of what is needed. Sounds like you have a good angle on the natural state and so the trick is to just let it be. |
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Post by maxdprophet on Oct 5, 2016 14:07:37 GMT -5
This might be true, but I think one common trap in the spiritual domain is that when one starts to enter an area of contemplation that gives little food for thought - e.g. that of the unchanging awareness, which, as Reefs put it, has "nothing to conceptualize" - one starts to get fidgety and automatically gravitates towards an area that gives more food for thought - e.g. that of conditioning, which is an endless resource for indulgent speculation. Some Zen-folks advice that "don't check", i.e. get rid of the habit of constantly checking your thoughts about something - how you're doing, your likes and dislikes, what you think of something etc. I think conditioning is a classic thing that one can be in a habit of constantly "checking" when on a spiritual path - what kind of conditioning one perceives that one has, is it desirable or not, is it changing (or "improving") or not, how is it likely to change in the future if this or that happens etc. I think I'm a bit caught in this too. But ultimately it might be better to take the handbrake off and stop this. I agree. The realization that awareness does not change or age, etc. is a relatively minor realization, and it may not have any effect at all upon how one lives life on a daily basis. By contrast, "passing through the gateless gate" (seeing through the illusion of separateness and realizing unity), SR, and other such realizations can profoundly affect one's daily life. Seeing that awareness does not change or age, by itself, rarely leads to a lessening of conditioned responses to the world. It's more like a clue, or a pointer, to the fact that things are not what they seem. OTOH, accepting "what is," becoming present and attentive, ceasing to fantasize, relinquishing "checking," and other similar changes in mental habits can lead to all kinds of experiences and realizations that will significantly change how one interacts with the world. Methinks the unification of subject/object, or seeing through the separation, is next. Like you and reefs say, noticing that (seemingly) unchanging awareness is a no-brainer. Stillness. |
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Post by maxdprophet on Oct 5, 2016 14:15:02 GMT -5
But there's "realization informs mind" which to me is more than just a reference to how realization contributes to understanding. It also means that the formula of conditioning changes. Not necessarily noticeable immediately. After a while of not resisting 'what is' constantly, the quality of conditioning also changes. I'm assuming this is what 'purification' refers to. I've heard it said that the process of conditioning ceases, but I doubt it. It's just unfiltered. This might be true, but I think one common trap in the spiritual domain is that when one starts to enter an area of contemplation that gives little food for thought - e.g. that of the unchanging awareness, which, as Reefs put it, has "nothing to conceptualize" - one starts to get fidgety and automatically gravitates towards an area that gives more food for thought - e.g. that of conditioning, which is an endless resource for indulgent speculation. Some Zen-folks advice that "don't check", i.e. get rid of the habit of constantly checking your thoughts about something - how you're doing, your likes and dislikes, what you think of something etc. I think conditioning is a classic thing that one can be in a habit of constantly "checking" when on a spiritual path - what kind of conditioning one perceives that one has, is it desirable or not, is it changing (or "improving") or not, how is it likely to change in the future if this or that happens etc. I think I'm a bit caught in this too. But ultimately it might be better to take the handbrake off and stop this. Interesting that you say take the handbrake off? I'd think that you'd put it on? In any case, Sailor Bob likes to call it Full Stop. But to me, it's so much easier said than done. I've never felt much control over whether thinking happens or not. It's mostly just reactive and conditional (subject to conditions of the moment). One of the tricky aspects in all of this is effort. Efforting to stop efforting is a no win game. Effortless meditation seems like an oxymoron. I've found that being mindful and ATA-MT, just happens or doesn't. I can set a routine in place, like do it on waking, or during commute. In those cases, there is initial effort to create a habit which is largely devoid of effort. But the cases I'm thinking of are when being present just happens (outside of any set up routines). It's a wonder and easy to be grateful for. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2016 20:45:30 GMT -5
This might be true, but I think one common trap in the spiritual domain is that when one starts to enter an area of contemplation that gives little food for thought - e.g. that of the unchanging awareness, which, as Reefs put it, has "nothing to conceptualize" - one starts to get fidgety and automatically gravitates towards an area that gives more food for thought - e.g. that of conditioning, which is an endless resource for indulgent speculation. Some Zen-folks advice that "don't check", i.e. get rid of the habit of constantly checking your thoughts about something - how you're doing, your likes and dislikes, what you think of something etc. I think conditioning is a classic thing that one can be in a habit of constantly "checking" when on a spiritual path - what kind of conditioning one perceives that one has, is it desirable or not, is it changing (or "improving") or not, how is it likely to change in the future if this or that happens etc. I think I'm a bit caught in this too. But ultimately it might be better to take the handbrake off and stop this. Interesting that you say take the handbrake off? I'd think that you'd put it on? In any case, Sailor Bob likes to call it Full Stop. But to me, it's so much easier said than done. I've never felt much control over whether thinking happens or not. It's mostly just reactive and conditional (subject to conditions of the moment). One of the tricky aspects in all of this is effort. Efforting to stop efforting is a no win game. Effortless meditation seems like an oxymoron. I've found that being mindful and ATA-MT, just happens or doesn't. I can set a routine in place, like do it on waking, or during commute. In those cases, there is initial effort to create a habit which is largely devoid of effort. But the cases I'm thinking of are when being present just happens (outside of any set up routines). It's a wonder and easy to be grateful for. When you decide to start walking there is an initial effort or intention. But then the walking is effortless. You don't need to keep thinking, I must put my left foot in front of my right foot and then my right foot in front of my left. Same with meditation. |
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Post by zendancer on Oct 6, 2016 6:21:35 GMT -5
Interesting that you say take the handbrake off? I'd think that you'd put it on? In any case, Sailor Bob likes to call it Full Stop. But to me, it's so much easier said than done. I've never felt much control over whether thinking happens or not. It's mostly just reactive and conditional (subject to conditions of the moment). One of the tricky aspects in all of this is effort. Efforting to stop efforting is a no win game. Effortless meditation seems like an oxymoron. I've found that being mindful and ATA-MT, just happens or doesn't. I can set a routine in place, like do it on waking, or during commute. In those cases, there is initial effort to create a habit which is largely devoid of effort. But the cases I'm thinking of are when being present just happens (outside of any set up routines). It's a wonder and easy to be grateful for. When you decide to start walking there is an initial effort or intention. But then the walking is effortless. You don't need to keep thinking, I must put my left foot in front of my right foot and then my right foot in front of my left. Same with meditation. Effort certainly seems to be involved, and we can talk about life that way, but truthfully whatever happens is an effortless unfolding. If there were no mental chatter ABOUT what's happening, it would become obvious that there is no one making any kind of effort at any time. For people whose internal dialogue has ceased, life continues just as before but without conscious decisions and without any thoughts about effort. |
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