Seth (QUOTES & DISCUSSION)

[laughter]

Jul 22, 2020 13:15:47 GMT -5 inavalan said:

Jul 22, 2020 6:08:29 GMT -5 laughter said:

Thanks, yeah, well, that sheer volume of the material is something I simply don't have the time for, which is precisely why I'm interested in perspectives like these from other's who have spent time on it. What I have read for myself certainly makes it clear to me the draw of the material, in terms of it's quality.

Now, I do also admit an interest in challenging the notion of channeling, generally, in that essentially, there's no single thought or emotion that gets expressed that isn't "channeled". This interest isn't a strong attachment, and I'm honestly expressing it out of a sense of fellowship with you and the other's who've expressed interest in this material.

You mention her answering questions that hadn't been asked, and I'm no stranger to outrageously improbable and synchronistic events, so, that's interesting .. although, certainly not without alternative, conventional explanation.

I'm skeptical of the notion that she expressed material that was beyond her capabilities. Do you know, offhand, what R. Butts' educational and vocational background was? The clues that Jane Roberts did indeed have the capacity to source these ideas herself are quite clear to me. As are the specific cultural distortions that might lead people to conclude otherwise.

I know he was a painter. She was a writer. None of them really successful at their trades, or otherwise.

For me, having the experience of a similar form of communication, what they describe in the transcripts of those sessions sounds veridic. The books are practically a collections of transcripts, with no added interpretation.

I have / had the same kind of questions and reactions as they had, the same doubts they expressed. It is obvious, from the questions Rob asked Seth, and form the short dialogues between Jane and Rob, that they didn't understand some of the material they received. They acted  like any regular people getting exposed to such a phenomenon.

It is also evident, and Seth mentioned it repeatedly, that part of the material (not a significant part) has distortions. Some of them caused by Jane's inability to word out the knowledge she received due to her educational background, some of it caused by Jane's beliefs and emotions. Ultimately, Jane and Rob didn't head some of Seth's personal advice, which led to Jane's illness and demise.

The Seth material, compared to what I have read / heard from other channels, is by far the most accurate and unbiased. It is also one of the least monetized. All channels introduce distortions caused by their beliefs. Those who make big money of it, have also to package it for better sale: love, hope, wishful thinking, ...

That's potentially intriguing. I'd be interested in specific examples/quotes illustrating it, but then again, you don't owe me any work along these lines.

[inavalan]

Jul 22, 2020 15:22:55 GMT -5 laughter said:

Jul 22, 2020 13:15:47 GMT -5 inavalan said:

I know he was a painter. She was a writer. None of them really successful at their trades, or otherwise.

For me, having the experience of a similar form of communication, what they describe in the transcripts of those sessions sounds veridic. The books are practically a collections of transcripts, with no added interpretation.

I have / had the same kind of questions and reactions as they had, the same doubts they expressed. It is obvious, from the questions Rob asked Seth, and form the short dialogues between Jane and Rob, that they didn't understand some of the material they received. They acted  like any regular people getting exposed to such a phenomenon.

It is also evident, and Seth mentioned it repeatedly, that part of the material (not a significant part) has distortions. Some of them caused by Jane's inability to word out the knowledge she received due to her educational background, some of it caused by Jane's beliefs and emotions. Ultimately, Jane and Rob didn't head some of Seth's personal advice, which led to Jane's illness and demise.

The Seth material, compared to what I have read / heard from other channels, is by far the most accurate and unbiased. It is also one of the least monetized. All channels introduce distortions caused by their beliefs. Those who make big money of it, have also to package it for better sale: love, hope, wishful thinking, ...

That's potentially intriguing. I'd be interested in specific examples/quotes illustrating it, but then again, you don't owe me any work along these lines.

The first thing that comes to mind is "time". But you're right, I don't feel like working to prove it.

Others: the whole self's parts, the relation with dreams, the psychological time (I believe), the purpose of life, who created the physical universe and why, the spacious present, ...

Obviously, that's what I believe from the little I've read, so maybe they figured it out somewhere else.

Seth repeatedly mentioned having difficulties presenting concepts that Jane couldn't put into words, and distorted them.

[laughter]

Jul 22, 2020 16:22:53 GMT -5 inavalan said:

Jul 22, 2020 15:22:55 GMT -5 laughter said:

That's potentially intriguing. I'd be interested in specific examples/quotes illustrating it, but then again, you don't owe me any work along these lines.

The first thing that comes to mind is "time". But you're right, I don't feel like working to prove it.

Others: the whole self's parts, the relation with dreams, the psychological time (I believe), the purpose of life, who created the physical universe and why, the spacious present, ...

Obviously, that's what I believe from the little I've read, so maybe they figured it out somewhere else.

Seth repeatedly mentioned having difficulties presenting concepts that Jane couldn't put into words, and distorted them.

There are scores of science fiction writers who have all come up with very imaginative riffs on the notion of time. I wonder if Tolkien or Rowling or Frank Herbert sometimes ever paused in amazement as to the sources of their imaginations. The trauma and instability in Jane's life, alone, would be explanation enough as to a split in her mind that masked from her the origins of these thoughts, creating a disconnect and gap betwee what she was capable of, and what she thought herself capable of. Not to mention the various social stigma's she lived through.

On the flip side to my perceptions, though, from the wiki, is this, which I find incredibly plausible :

Roberts assumed Seth was a subconscious fantasy, personified because she did not believe in spirits or life after death. She monitored her personality characteristics and went to a psychologist. But she felt that "Seth seemed far more mature and well-balanced than the psychologist, so finally I stopped worrying. This is not to say the experience did not cause certain strains and stresses that could accompany any worthwhile venture in an entirely new field."

[inavalan]

Jul 22, 2020 18:17:50 GMT -5 laughter said:

Jul 22, 2020 16:22:53 GMT -5 inavalan said:

The first thing that comes to mind is "time". But you're right, I don't feel like working to prove it.

Others: the whole self's parts, the relation with dreams, the psychological time (I believe), the purpose of life, who created the physical universe and why, the spacious present, ...

Obviously, that's what I believe from the little I've read, so maybe they figured it out somewhere else.

Seth repeatedly mentioned having difficulties presenting concepts that Jane couldn't put into words, and distorted them.

There are scores of science fiction writers who have all come up with very imaginative riffs on the notion of time. I wonder if Tolkien or Rowling or Frank Herbert sometimes ever paused in amazement as to the sources of their imaginations. The trauma and instability in Jane's life, alone, would be explanation enough as to a split in her mind that masked from her the origins of these thoughts, creating a disconnect and gap betwee what she was capable of, and what she thought herself capable of. Not to mention the various social stigma's she lived through.

On the flip side to my perceptions, though, from the wiki, is this, which I find incredibly plausible :

Roberts assumed Seth was a subconscious fantasy, personified because she did not believe in spirits or life after death. She monitored her personality characteristics and went to a psychologist. But she felt that "Seth seemed far more mature and well-balanced than the psychologist, so finally I stopped worrying. This is not to say the experience did not cause certain strains and stresses that could accompany any worthwhile venture in an entirely new field."

I get that you don't believe that channeling is "real". I didn't either. Then I tried and experienced it.

[laughter]

Jul 22, 2020 19:04:09 GMT -5 inavalan said:

Jul 22, 2020 18:17:50 GMT -5 laughter said:

There are scores of science fiction writers who have all come up with very imaginative riffs on the notion of time. I wonder if Tolkien or Rowling or Frank Herbert sometimes ever paused in amazement as to the sources of their imaginations. The trauma and instability in Jane's life, alone, would be explanation enough as to a split in her mind that masked from her the origins of these thoughts, creating a disconnect and gap betwee what she was capable of, and what she thought herself capable of. Not to mention the various social stigma's she lived through.

On the flip side to my perceptions, though, from the wiki, is this, which I find incredibly plausible :

I get that you don't believe that channeling is "real". I didn't either. Then I tried and experienced it.

No so, it's just that I have very different ideas about it. Generally speaking, I see the notion as applicable to any creative process.

[inavalan]

Jul 23, 2020 14:07:54 GMT -5 laughter said:

Jul 22, 2020 19:04:09 GMT -5 inavalan said:

I get that you don't believe that channeling is "real". I didn't either. Then I tried and experienced it.

No so, it's just that I have very different ideas about it. Generally speaking, I see the notion as applicable to any creative process.

This reminded me of Rudolf Steiner's imagination - inspiration - intuition.

[laughter]

Jul 23, 2020 17:31:24 GMT -5 inavalan said:

Jul 23, 2020 14:07:54 GMT -5 laughter said:

No so, it's just that I have very different ideas about it. Generally speaking, I see the notion as applicable to any creative process.

This reminded me of Rudolf Steiner's imagination - inspiration - intuition.

Hadn't heard of him, but looking into it I can see that I have been influenced.

[inavalan]

Jul 23, 2020 18:38:49 GMT -5 laughter said:

Jul 23, 2020 17:31:24 GMT -5 inavalan said:

This reminded me of Rudolf Steiner's imagination - inspiration - intuition.

Hadn't heard of him, but looking into it I can see that I have been influenced.

If you don't mind sharing, what is the purpose for which you are here on Earth now? What are you supposed to do to achieve that?

[laughter]

Jul 23, 2020 19:17:00 GMT -5 inavalan said:

Jul 23, 2020 18:38:49 GMT -5 laughter said:

Hadn't heard of him, but looking into it I can see that I have been influenced.

If you don't mind sharing, what is the purpose for which you are here on Earth now? What are you supposed to do to achieve that?

The purpose of life is life itself. Achievements happen sometimes, sometimes they don't, but neither failure nor success has ultimately anything to do, with life.

[inavalan]

Jul 24, 2020 12:06:58 GMT -5 laughter said:

Jul 23, 2020 19:17:00 GMT -5 inavalan said:

If you don't mind sharing, what is the purpose for which you are here on Earth now? What are you supposed to do to achieve that?

The purpose of life is life itself. Achievements happen sometimes, sometimes they don't, but neither failure nor success has ultimately anything to do, with life.

Thanks. I understand. I expected something else.

[laughter]

Jul 24, 2020 13:32:22 GMT -5 inavalan said:

Jul 24, 2020 12:06:58 GMT -5 laughter said:

The purpose of life is life itself. Achievements happen sometimes, sometimes they don't, but neither failure nor success has ultimately anything to do, with life.

Thanks. I understand. I expected something else.

What was it you expected?

[inavalan]

Jul 24, 2020 13:47:52 GMT -5 laughter said:

Jul 24, 2020 13:32:22 GMT -5 inavalan said:

Thanks. I understand. I expected something else.

What was it you expected?

Not a deflection ... But on the other hand, probably I expected it. That's why I wrote "I understand". I can't believe that that is your honest answer (no offense intended).

[laughter]

Jul 24, 2020 15:09:17 GMT -5 inavalan said:

Jul 24, 2020 13:47:52 GMT -5 laughter said:

What was it you expected?

Not a deflection ... But on the other hand, probably I expected it. That's why I wrote "I understand". I can't believe that that is your honest answer (no offense intended).

Oh, ok. Well, didn't seem like a deflection from my end in the writing of it, and yeah, that is my honest answer.

[inavalan]

the benefits and dangers of expectations


On another occasion I will go into the benefits and dangers of expectations, for these are the result of subconscious feelings, which are not only projected outward but also sensed by others.

All of our material should be of great practical value. Remember that the subconscious is at the outer end of the inner senses, and the inner senses create physical constructions. Once you learn how to handle and communicate with your subconscious, then you will be able to create more constructive constructions—

(Here Jane smiled.)

—because you will understand that fearful expectations greatly color your perception of reality, and your construction of it.
(To my way of thinking, this is one of the most significant bits of information to come out of the Seth material.)


--- "The Early Sessions: Book 2 of The Seth Material, Session 67" by Jane Roberts, Robert Butts
(in italics Rob's commentary)

[inavalan]

Seth on importance of expectations and emotions in construction of physical reality - The Early Sessions, Book 2, Session 76

I will, then, begin with a short treatise concerning the importance of expectation, not only in the construction of physical objects from inner data, but also in the importance played by expectation in the actual sifting of inner data that is received, and in the importance of expectation in the interpretation of inner data after the sifting process has been carried about.

(“Do you mean carried out?”)

Carried about. Expectation, perhaps more than any other quality, characterizes the individual, and represents the innermost aspects of his personality. It is the framework for his physical constructions, and more than atoms and molecules it represents the psychic building blocks from which his constructions will be erected.

We have already spoken of psychic constructions, and we have said that physical shapes are built upon inner psychic frameworks. Emotions then, in their own realm unperceived by the outer senses, have their own solidity, shape, and it is from these that your expectations are formed.

The emotions indeed do form the expectations, and it is not the other way around.

As physical objects can be manipulated, so can the emotions be manipulated, so can they be combined into various shapes and psychic constructions. A man’s expectations are the result of his emotional heritage, and his own ability to understand and manipulate that heritage.

If he manipulates that heritage well, then his expectations will work for him. The emotions are to be used and enjoyed as psychic building blocks. There is no law, however, stating that a man cannot instead throw these blocks to the winds and hope that when they fall down they might possibly fall into a castle.

Again, expectations are not only vital in the formation of physical constructions, but they also determine what inner data of all available, will be received by the individual; and then the individual interprets the data in terms of the same expectations.

The core of individuality, then, is the individual’s expectations, for he will truly get what he wants, individually and collectively.

If a man wants to change his fate, desire is not enough, but expectation is. Desire may grow into expectation, but alone it is not enough. Expectation is actually the main trigger that switches inner data into the realm of physical construction. Without it, no physical construction results.

This is extremely valuable information, particularly concerning the part played by expectation in the sifting of available data. Expectation is somewhat influenced also by past existences, and yet not enough to be binding upon the present personality.

An expectation of danger will indeed create danger. An expectation of success will create success. This is put very simply and yet there is nothing, in practical terms, more valid, since expectation has behind it the motivating force of the personality, and utilizes on a subconscious level strong abilities and comprehensions.

Expectation is the force, then, that triggers psychic realities into physical construction.

I suggest your first break.

(Break at 9:26. Jane was dissociated as usual. She delivered the above material with quite a few pauses, and appeared to be choosing her words carefully. She resumed in the same manner at 9:32.)

In your physical field, and this limitation is important, in your physical field, truths are often caused by, or are the result of, expectations worked out. Therefore, if you believe for example that excellent artists must be poverty stricken, then this will be a part of your overall expectation framework; and for you it will indeed be, and exist as, a truth.

If you became wealthy, you would then be in danger of losing your ability, since in your realm of expectation ability of this nature and wealth do not exist simultaneously. To protect your ability then, you would rigorously fight to retain your poverty.

If another man, for example, does not believe that artistic talent of high degree cannot exist side by side with wealth, then your truth is not his truth, and he is not threatened by wealth, nor is his ability.

It may even improve. Since I have said that expectations are formed by the emotions, then it is obviously the basic emotions themselves that must be manipulated, since the expectations are the frameworks formed by the emotions. This is the starting point.

It is pointless to ignore the fact that you feel hatred, even though hatred is a distortion of a basic psychic mobility. Unless you learn never to distort the basic consciousness survival in terms of hatred, you will always have to deal with seemingly unresolved hatreds and aggressions.

Aggressions are merely the result of energy not clearly directed, invalid survival patterns. If these aggressions are not handled with some degree of success, they will form themselves into expectations, where they will then let forth their power in the formation of unfortunate constructions.

Emotions, or emotional energy, can be transformed rather easily from one to the other. The energy in hate can be utilized in love, for example. However, aggressions can be turned into constructive terms if care is used. Aggressions should be, as soon as possible after their recognition, turned into constructions. If not, consciously you forget the aggression; the energy stores up until it explodes in what we will call an unsupervised construction.

Ruburt’s almost instant reaction following the G.I. notice was, here, excellent. The aggressive feeling, unharnessed, would have caused difficulties at the gallery, and even in your personal relationship. His seeking out of his friend, your landlady, was beneficial, since in harmless talk and chatter much aggressive energy was harmlessly constructed.

The almost immediate bustling about in the apartment was even better. He was already geared for action and physical activity. A temper tantrum, such as dish throwing, would have been more effective than no action, though not the best sort of solution.

The constructive changing around of the apartment was instinctively correct, however, as was your agreement in both of these instances. Physical activity is an excellent way of using and controlling the effect of aggressive reaction, and will prevent the buildup of aggressive emotions into unsupervised physical constructions, and also prevent the habitual piling up of such aggressions, where detrimental constructions result continually.

Except for disappointment in his writing, Ruburt almost instinctively operates within a beneficial pattern in this respect, and you are certainly progressing. Nor is it foolish to consider improvements in your apartment under the circumstances of which we are speaking.

I suggest your break.

(Break at 10:00. Jane was dissociated as usual. She said she now had the feeling that Seth would begin to discuss the affair of the house if we wanted him to. Talking it over, we decided to let Seth bring up the subject when he wanted to. So we asked no questions at break.

(Jane resumed in the same deliberate manner, with many pauses, at 10:12)

There is no getting around what I have said. Emotional power behind your expectations powers your expectations into physical reality.

The subconscious, as you call it, represents a tremendous raw power that triggers forth into construction according to the expectations which you form from the emotions. The intellect should help you understand this power plant, so that you can switch your power where it is needed. The intellect should operate like an x-ray, enabling you to see inward.

While many of your expectations are formed in childhood, no switch is really stuck in one position, and it is your prerogative to channel your emotional energy into whatever pattern for action you desire. It is extremely important, if difficult, to probe and to discover exactly what your present expectations are. Not your desires but your expectations, for you will only construct physically that environment which you believe capable of construction. It has been said that oftentimes men’s expectations are too high for their abilities, but indeed expectations form abilities; and if expectations were higher, so would abilities flourish.

These are all practical aspects concerning the construction of inner data into physical matter, and no more practical information could be given to you.

--- - The Early Sessions, Book 2, Session 76