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Post by laughter on Nov 2, 2017 14:54:30 GMT -5
This caught my attention in particular: @ 16:20: "now I don't call Seth a spirit guide either, uh .. I find myself in a peculiar position .. in that uh .. I don't particularly accept -- I do want to watch my words (** chuckle **) -- the dogma of any particular group, organization .. it -- this was my experience I wasn't about to have it interpreted .. uh .. for me by others. I never thought of Seth as some white-cloaked spirit who was just floating around. Uh, part of my life's work certainly is to try to understand the nature of our personalities -- you know of our personalities: what abilities we've got, what happens so that we can get this kind of information. And uhm, one of the things I really hoped is that people would begin to trust their .. ah .. revelatory experience and not automatically cloak it in whatever dogma they believe in." Notice how the interviewer is almost impatient with her on that point? I understand their wanting to interpret the material in it's own light, singularly, as independent of past culture as possible, and they were in a unique position and in particularly favorable time and place to do that. That comes through all the more clearly in the story they tell here. If I could have met them I would have asked them to reconsider even using the word "reincarnation", and would have suggested that perhaps there was an even bigger picture with respect to personality that the material might be missing.  Now, of course, I hasten to add, the quality of the content in the material is even why we're discussing it at all. It interests me just how forcefully she dismisses the idea of her subconscious as the source of that material. This dismissal is certainly in line with the rejection of dogma, and on that point, it would be Western psychological dogma. What did she study at Skidmore I wonder? And if one can look past the negative and admittedly past oppressive cultural effects of that dogma, one might find some interesting similarity between Jane's Seth trances and what the Christians advise about some forms of prayer, or the Zen culture's ideas about meditating on koans. I think she studied poetry at Skidmore. She had a scholarship. Her aversion to any kind of dogma comes from her early religious upbringing (catholic). She broke free from it with her poetry. Seth later helped her to deprogram herself further (in the personal sessions). Seth told her that her subconscious is not the source of the material, it's just some kind of twilight zone between Seth's world and Jane's world, it's their meeting 'place' so to speak. In order to channel Seth 2 she had to go even beyond the personal subconscious level. That's when Seth suddenly switches personal pronouns form "I" to "We" in the Seth material, similar to when Esther channels Abraham. Seth called Seth 2 his big brother, hehe. The Seth 2 material is also basically identical with the Abraham material in terms of style, perspective and focus. Esther also studied the Seth material. So there seems to be some continuation. I think the year Jane died and stopped channeling Seth was also the year when Esther started channeling Abraham. This past Sunday Father Joe worked in a "everyone and everything is deeply connected with everyone and everything else". Want to know the scriptural context? Want to hear my nondual translation of that context? There's no denying the material damage that's been done by Catholic dogma, either on the historical or individual/psychological levels. I think I could make the case that not even the Vatican denies it these days. Most of the people I've ever met or known all that well have had some sort of struggle with it. Even at it's best -- and I have been privileged to see it at it's best this past year -- it's not for everyone. Eventually someone on a path of insight and becoming conscious would have to question, challenge, or at the very least suspend and stop leaning on it. The obstacles of Catholic dogma to someone on a tantric path of following their bliss should be too obvious to mention. But Jane probably studied more than just poetry at Skidmore. She was likely exposed to a full spread of liberal arts: some philosophy, a smattering of history, probably even had to rub elbows with a quantitative subject or two. The wiki on her mentions how she eventually substituted a scientific world view for the Catholocism. What caught my attention in the interviewer's reaction to what she said there was the dissonance between what he said and the way he said it. He couldn't deny her insight, but he was downright condescending about it. And he used it as a segue to lean forward in his chair and ever so intently ask .. "ok, ok ok but let's come back again to Seth! ..". Good on Yale that they kept a record of someone so far outside the ribbons and metals rubric that they're a pillar of. Niz and Jane share more than just smoking in common in that regard. It's on the strength of what they had to say that we know about them. But I find it rather fascinating that everyone seems so ready to dismiss Jane's life experience and the culture that she came out of as the ultimate source of most of that material, as creative and unique as certain facets of it is. My bottom line is that I don't have to subscribe to the common and literal interpretation of how Jane's mind reported what moved through it in order to hear the insight in it. |
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Post by Reefs on Nov 7, 2017 9:19:45 GMT -5
The Astral Body (1)
Seth: As you know, the inner senses belong to that part of human personality that is not physically materialized. At various times I have spoken concerning the reality of what you refer to as the astral body. It is composed of electromagnetic components. It is simply the unseen self. This does not mean that it cannot be seen on occasion, but it cannot be perceived through use of the unaided physical senses. It is that indeed which contains the memories and experiences, in codified units, of the present individual. It is that part which survives physical death. It is that part which in physical life is intertwined with the physical image.
The basic consciousness is never physical. Yet within your system it must collect experience within the physical system, hence the physical body. But experience itself is not physical, and cannot be contained within physical matter. Therefore this experience, collected within the physical field, is held in codified form by this inner self or astral identity. It is only by understanding the connection between the physical and nonphysical self, and the communication systems that operate here, that the true nature of human personality can be studied
(Session 202)
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Post by Reefs on Nov 11, 2017 22:59:45 GMT -5
The Astral Body (2)
Seth: The inner senses are part of this nonphysical self. They allow the personality to retain its relationship with nonphysical reality, permitting the material self to focus within its earthly environment. The inner senses collect information of which the conscious self may not be aware. The astral identity of course is aware of communications from both the inner and outer environment. The astral identity is therefore actually a more complete representation of the whole personality, and its abilities are far-reaching. The inner ego of which we have spoken is the director of this astral identity.
When the physical self sleeps the astral image may indeed wander. It always returns to the physical body during physical life. Its telepathic and clairvoyant abilities are not hampered in any way by the ego when that self sleeps. In waking hours the communications system is more or less closed on the ego's side, but in sleep the barriers are lifted and knowledge from the inner self has a freer flow.
Obviously then so-called astral projection occurs frequently in the sleeping state. It also occurs however in the waking state, although the ego is not aware of such projection as a rule. When through training there is greater communication between the inner and outer selves, then it is possible for the ego to realize what has happened. I have told you that dreams are a continuing process, whether or not the ego wakes or sleeps, and whether or not it has, or retains, any knowledge of the dreaming. So also the astral self journeys often, whether the ego wakes or sleeps.
(Session 202)
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Post by zin on Nov 13, 2017 4:59:29 GMT -5
Consciousness & creation
You distinguish between consciousness and your own version, which you consider consciousness of self. When I speak of atoms and molecules having consciousness, I mean that they possess consciousness of themselves as identities. I do not mean that they love or hate, in your terms, but that they are aware of their own separateness, and aware of the ways in which that separateness cooperates to form other organizations.
They are innately aware, in fact, of all such probable cooperative ventures, and imbued with the 'drive' for value fulfillment. Every known species was inherently 'present' with the overall impregnation of the visible universe, then.
If the universe were a painting, for example, the painter would not have first painted darkness, then an explosion, then a cell, then the joining together of groups of cells into a simple organism, then that organism's multiplication into others like it, or traced a pattern from an amoeba or a paramecium on upward -- but he or she would have instead begun with a panel of light, an underpainting, in which all of the world's organisms were included, though not in detail. Then in a creativity that came from the painting itself the colors would grow rich, the species attain their delineations, the winds blow and the seas move with the tides.
The motion and energy of the universe still come from within. I certainly realize that this is hardly a scientific statement -- yet the moment that All That Is conceived of a physical universe it was invisibly created, endowed with creativity, and bound to emerge.
(.....)
Almost anyone will agree, I should hope, that the universe is a most splendid example of creativity. Few would agree, however, that you can learn more about the nature of the universe by examining your own creativity than you can by examining the world through instruments -- and here is exquisite irony, for you create the instruments of creativity, even while at the same time you often spout theories that deny to man all but the most mechanical of reactions.
In other terms, the world comes to know itself, to discover itself, for the Planner left room for divine surprise, and the plan was nowhere foreordained, nor is there anywhere within it anything that corresponds to your survival-of-the-fittest theories.
These are creative distortions on your part, directly related to specializations of consciousness that cut you off from the greater concourse existing at other levels between the species and the land. Again, consciousness everywhere pervades the universe, and is aware of all conditions. The balance of nature upon your planet is no chance occurrence, but the result of constant, instant computations on the part of each most minute consciousness, whether it forms part of a rock, a person, an animal, a plant. Each invisibly 'holds space together', whatever its station. This is a cooperative venture. Your own consciousness has its particular unique qualities, in that like other comparatively long-lived species, you associate your identity with your form far more rigidly. Other kinds of consciousness 'leap in and out of forms' with greatest leeway. There is a biological understanding that exists, for example, when one animal kills another one for food. The consciousness of the prey leaves its body under the impetus of a kind of stimulus unknown to you.
I want to be very careful here, for I am speaking of natural interplay among the animals. This is not anywhere meant to justify the cruel slaughtering of animals by man under many circumstances.
(session 797)
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Post by zin on Nov 13, 2017 5:05:22 GMT -5
You move through probabilities without knowing it
The historical and cultural world as you know it appears to be the only one objective world, of course, with its history already written, its present, and hopefully its probable future. It seems also that the future must be built upon that one known species or world past. Often it may simply sound like a figure of speech when I talk about probabilities. In many ways it may indeed appear to be almost outrageous to consider the possibility that 'there is more than one earth', or that there are many earths, each similar enough to be recognizable, yet each different in the most vital respects.
This particular house exists. Yet you may open the door on any given day to a probable world from your immediate standpoint, and never know the difference. This happens all the time, and I mean all the time.
You move through probabilities without knowing it. The transitions are literally invisible to you, though they may appear as trace elements in your dreams. As a diamond has many facets, so does your reality in that regard.
Since your birth a probability has occurred that you could have followed, in which your wars did not happen. There is another probability in which the Second World War ended in nuclear destruction, and you did not enter that one either. You chose 'this' probable reality in order to ask certain questions about the nature of man -- seeing him where he wavered equally between creativity and destruction, knowledge and ignorance; but a point that contained potentials for the most auspicious kinds of development, in your eyes. ...
In a way, man is trans-species at this point in probability. It is a time and a probability in which every bit of help is needed, and your talents, abilities, and prejudices made you both uniquely fitted for such a drama. At the same time, do not dwell too much upon that world situation, for a concentration upon your own nature and upon the physical nature of your world --the seasons, and so forth-- allows you to refresh your own energy, and frees you to take advantage of that clear vision that is so necessary.
You each also became involved in this probability precisely to use it as a creative stimulus that would make you seek for a certain kind of understanding. There is always a creative give-and-take between the individual and his world. To some extent or another each of those involved in this probability chose it for their own reasons. Saying this, however, I also say that many leave this probability for another when they have learned and contributed.
(session 797)
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Post by zin on Nov 13, 2017 5:12:01 GMT -5
I am at the end of 'The Nature of the Psyche, Its Human Expression'. I found especially the last chapters very interesting (about dreams and also probabilities). I will write on them later... Here I just want to say that I came across a Yahoo group "Seth quotes" which makes putting quotes here quite easy : )
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Post by Deleted on Nov 14, 2017 8:33:06 GMT -5
The Astral Body (2)
Seth: The inner senses are part of this nonphysical self. They allow the personality to retain its relationship with nonphysical reality, permitting the material self to focus within its earthly environment. The inner senses collect information of which the conscious self may not be aware. The astral identity of course is aware of communications from both the inner and outer environment. The astral identity is therefore actually a more complete representation of the whole personality, and its abilities are far-reaching. The inner ego of which we have spoken is the director of this astral identity. When the physical self sleeps the astral image may indeed wander. It always returns to the physical body during physical life. Its telepathic and clairvoyant abilities are not hampered in any way by the ego when that self sleeps. In waking hours the communications system is more or less closed on the ego's side, but in sleep the barriers are lifted and knowledge from the inner self has a freer flow. Obviously then so-called astral projection occurs frequently in the sleeping state. It also occurs however in the waking state, although the ego is not aware of such projection as a rule. When through training there is greater communication between the inner and outer selves, then it is possible for the ego to realize what has happened. I have told you that dreams are a continuing process, whether or not the ego wakes or sleeps, and whether or not it has, or retains, any knowledge of the dreaming. So also the astral self journeys often, whether the ego wakes or sleeps. (Session 202) That would be 'the Diamond' that Enigma writes of. |
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Post by Reefs on Nov 20, 2017 9:39:10 GMT -5
The Astral Body (2)
Seth: The inner senses are part of this nonphysical self. They allow the personality to retain its relationship with nonphysical reality, permitting the material self to focus within its earthly environment. The inner senses collect information of which the conscious self may not be aware. The astral identity of course is aware of communications from both the inner and outer environment. The astral identity is therefore actually a more complete representation of the whole personality, and its abilities are far-reaching. The inner ego of which we have spoken is the director of this astral identity. When the physical self sleeps the astral image may indeed wander. It always returns to the physical body during physical life. Its telepathic and clairvoyant abilities are not hampered in any way by the ego when that self sleeps. In waking hours the communications system is more or less closed on the ego's side, but in sleep the barriers are lifted and knowledge from the inner self has a freer flow. Obviously then so-called astral projection occurs frequently in the sleeping state. It also occurs however in the waking state, although the ego is not aware of such projection as a rule. When through training there is greater communication between the inner and outer selves, then it is possible for the ego to realize what has happened. I have told you that dreams are a continuing process, whether or not the ego wakes or sleeps, and whether or not it has, or retains, any knowledge of the dreaming. So also the astral self journeys often, whether the ego wakes or sleeps. (Session 202) That would be 'the Diamond' that Enigma writes of. Never heard him talk about diamonds. |
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Post by Reefs on Nov 20, 2017 9:41:11 GMT -5
I am at the end of 'The Nature of the Psyche, Its Human Expression'. I found especially the last chapters very interesting (about dreams and also probabilities). I will write on them later... Here I just want to say that I came across a Yahoo group "Seth quotes" which makes putting quotes here quite easy : ) In 'The Unknown Reality' Seth goes really deep into probabilities. |
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Post by Reefs on Nov 20, 2017 10:02:48 GMT -5
This past Sunday Father Joe worked in a "everyone and everything is deeply connected with everyone and everything else". Want to know the scriptural context? Want to hear my nondual translation of that context? You go to church?  There's no denying the material damage that's been done by Catholic dogma, either on the historical or individual/psychological levels. I think I could make the case that not even the Vatican denies it these days. Most of the people I've ever met or known all that well have had some sort of struggle with it. Even at it's best -- and I have been privileged to see it at it's best this past year -- it's not for everyone. Eventually someone on a path of insight and becoming conscious would have to question, challenge, or at the very least suspend and stop leaning on it. The obstacles of Catholic dogma to someone on a tantric path of following their bliss should be too obvious to mention. That's one way of looking at it. On the one hand that belief system provided some stability for Jane in her very unstable childhood and later it provided the necessary contrast that forced her to break free and trust her own inner voice. Good on Yale that they kept a record of someone so far outside the ribbons and metals rubric that they're a pillar of. Niz and Jane share more than just smoking in common in that regard. It's on the strength of what they had to say that we know about them. But I find it rather fascinating that everyone seems so ready to dismiss Jane's life experience and the culture that she came out of as the ultimate source of most of that material, as creative and unique as certain facets of it is. My bottom line is that I don't have to subscribe to the common and literal interpretation of how Jane's mind reported what moved through it in order to hear the insight in it. As A-H usually say, everything is an interpretation. The Seth material is Jane's unique interpretation and the Abraham material is Esther's unique interpretation. So none of this stuff should be taken all too literally. That also applies to Niz and Ramana and the Classics (see destruction of mind). This stuff has to be updated again and again. |
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Post by Reefs on Nov 20, 2017 10:23:47 GMT -5
Seth Two speaks (5)
Seth Two: We are the voices who speak without tongues of our own. We are sources of that energy from which you come. We are creators, yet we have also been created. We seeded your universe as you seed other realities. We do not exist in your historical terms, nor have we known physical existence. Our joy created the exaltation from which your world comes. Our existence is such that communication must be made by others to you.
Verbal symbols have no meaning for us. Our experience is not translatable. We hope our intent is. In the vast infinite scope of consciousness, all is possible. There is meaning in each thought. We perceive your thoughts as lights. They form patterns. Because of the difficulties of communication, it is nearly impossible for us to explain our reality. Know only that we exist. We send immeasurable vitality to you, and support all of those structures of consciousness with which you are familiar. You are never alone. We have always sent emissaries to you who understand your needs. Though you do not know us, we cherish you.
Seth is a point in my reference, in our reference. He is an ancient portion of us. We are separate but united. Always the spirit forms the flesh.
(Session 588)
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Post by Reefs on Nov 20, 2017 10:27:27 GMT -5
Seth Two is basically the A-H perspective. This could perfectly sell as an A-H quote. |
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Post by laughter on Nov 20, 2017 14:05:37 GMT -5
This past Sunday Father Joe worked in a "everyone and everything is deeply connected with everyone and everything else". Want to know the scriptural context? Want to hear my nondual translation of that context? You go to church? There's no denying the material damage that's been done by Catholic dogma, either on the historical or individual/psychological levels. I think I could make the case that not even the Vatican denies it these days. Most of the people I've ever met or known all that well have had some sort of struggle with it. Even at it's best -- and I have been privileged to see it at it's best this past year -- it's not for everyone. Eventually someone on a path of insight and becoming conscious would have to question, challenge, or at the very least suspend and stop leaning on it. The obstacles of Catholic dogma to someone on a tantric path of following their bliss should be too obvious to mention. That's one way of looking at it. On the one hand that belief system provided some stability for Jane in her very unstable childhood and later it provided the necessary contrast that forced her to break free and trust her own inner voice. Good on Yale that they kept a record of someone so far outside the ribbons and metals rubric that they're a pillar of. Niz and Jane share more than just smoking in common in that regard. It's on the strength of what they had to say that we know about them. But I find it rather fascinating that everyone seems so ready to dismiss Jane's life experience and the culture that she came out of as the ultimate source of most of that material, as creative and unique as certain facets of it is. My bottom line is that I don't have to subscribe to the common and literal interpretation of how Jane's mind reported what moved through it in order to hear the insight in it. As A-H usually say, everything is an interpretation. The Seth material is Jane's unique interpretation and the Abraham material is Esther's unique interpretation. So none of this stuff should be taken all too literally. That also applies to Niz and Ramana and the Classics (see destruction of mind). This stuff has to be updated again and again.  yeah, you might not have been following my narrative. Or you're joking.  In case you haven't been following that, Sue had been wanting to get baptized ever since I met her 30 years ago now. So I took her around to two last year and she made up her mind pretty quick. She didn't want to go through the process alone so I participated in the rituals. I'd always known, in the abstract, up to then, how prayer and meditation are related. I was surprised to find just how deep that particular bunny hole goes, and Father Joe is an insightful dude. You have to try to imagine what it would have been like to renounce your Earthly ambitions and devoted your adult life to serving the spiritual needs of others. That, was really surprising 'cause I'd always had a negative view of clergy as a group because of the power structure they represent. It's almost a synchronicity here in what you wrote about interpretation, as I logged in with the intention of writing this OP.  |
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Post by zin on Nov 22, 2017 11:25:59 GMT -5
(Robert F. Butts comments on his and Jane's work with Seth):
For now, let's postulate that Jane and I think we understand better than we used to that our consciousnesses have no limitations except those we've imposed upon them through our individual perceptions and understandings. Consciousness creates all, or all that we know reflects the particularized creations of consciousness, then, and potentially those sublime mental and physical achievements are without end. The idea of infinity is implied here — a concept whose implications make us uneasy, for although Seth's material can be said to imply infinities of creation upon the part of each of us, still we realize the conscious mind's inability to truly grasp all of the qualities inherent within such a notion.
At the same time, Jane and I are extremely grateful that we have the opportunity to study ideas about consciousness with Seth, and this opening up of our individual realities is something we couldn't have conceived of before 1963. Our appreciation of life has expanded greatly — and if the Seth material did nothing but help us grow in that respect, it would perform a very valuable service. We hope others feel they've gained something from the material too. [Actually, I think that what I've learned has saved me from bitterness and disillusionment in later life. Jane has also been helped a great deal.] So our aim with the Seth books is to let Seth have his say, to add some thoughts of our own, and to trust that the feelings and meanings in all of this will evoke beneficial responses in each reader. It's all we can do. I for one think that my own words are pretty inadequate tools of expression to convey the deeper, unspoken meanings within life that I sense but cannot really verbalize.
I also think that Seth himself could have some pretty funny things to say here to Jane and me —some day I'll ask him— words with which he'd humorously caution us not to take the whole affair too seriously, to leave room in our daily lives for the simple, uninhibited joy of creative expression and living even while we study his unending outpouring of material. But maintaining such a balance isn't always easy. Seth has already offered Jane encouragement twice since he finished his part of the work for Mass Events in August 1979. He came through with the following quotations when Jane began to express a renewed concern about her responsibility for his material, and for the reactions of others to it. Her feelings had arisen in large part because of the ever-increasing mail response the Seth books have generated. Interesting, then, the way the Seth portion of Jane's personality structure [whatever Seth's reality may be] reinforces those other portions that are meeting all of the challenges embodied in her current mental and physical existence — and we are continually seeking to learn more about how Seth is able to do this. In these excerpts Seth also touches upon certain other points that we think of often.
From a personal session held on August 29, 1979:
"There is a power of growth and value fulfillment within each individual that must be satisfied. It is the power that makes physical growth possible, the power that is behind the fetus. You know ahead of time the nature of the period into which you will be born. You [Jane and Rob, or Ruburt and Joseph] were both born with certain abilities, and you knew ahead of time that you would have to enlarge the framework of conventional concepts if you were to have room to use those abilities. In a way, they gave you both a second life, for in the old framework there was no satisfying or creative way to go.
You have both used the material I have given you, and what you have learned on your own through the material, very well — some of it so smoothly that you are not even aware of your accomplishments. In some areas you still cling to old beliefs, but there is no end to what you can do, still, with growing comprehension. That is, you can still accomplish as much, if not more, than you already have.
Think of yourselves, in important ways, as almost having been born in 1963 [when these sessions began]. The two of you —for you are both involved— have not only initiated a new framework from which you and others can view the nature of reality more clearly, but you also had to start from scratch, so to speak, to get the material, learn to trust it, and then to apply it to your own lives — even while 'the facts were not all in yet'. At no point did you have all of the material to draw upon, as for example, your readers do at any given point. So tell Ruburt not to judge himself too harshly, and in all of this have him try to remember his sense of play."
From the regular, 877th session for September 3, 1979:
"All creativity is basically joyful. It is play in the highest sense of the term, and it is always alive with motion. The sessions and our work can help bring about a new mental species of men and women. Ideas change the chromosomes, but the sessions and Ruburt's books, and so forth, must first and foremost be joyful expressions of creativity, spontaneous expressions that fall into their own order. ...
You paint because you love to paint, and forget what an artist is supposed to be or not to be. Have Ruburt forget what a writer or a psychic is supposed to be or not to be. Ruburt's spontaneity lets all of his creative abilities emerge. It is foolhardy to try and apply discipline, or secondary order to a spontaneous creativity that automatically gives you the finest order that nature could ever provide."
Those two excerpts from Seth contain inspired thinking — especially portions about the power of value fulfillment, and the joy and spontaneity involved in creativity.
(session 801)
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Post by zin on Nov 22, 2017 11:32:51 GMT -5
I am at the end of 'The Nature of the Psyche, Its Human Expression'. I found especially the last chapters very interesting (about dreams and also probabilities). I will write on them later... Here I just want to say that I came across a Yahoo group "Seth quotes" which makes putting quotes here quite easy : ) In 'The Unknown Reality' Seth goes really deep into probabilities. I bought it but I fell into 'The Individual and the Nature of Mass Events' while just browsing the first chapters : ) I was curious about Framework 1 and 2, and when I see them in the Contents I decided to read a little. Glad to see that the comments/explanations about their life take place in this book, too. |
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yeah, you might not have been following my narrative. Or you're joking. 
In case you haven't been following that, Sue had been wanting to get baptized ever since I met her 30 years ago now. So I took her around to two last year and she made up her mind pretty quick. She didn't want to go through the process alone so I participated in the rituals. I'd always known, in the abstract, up to then, how prayer and meditation are related. I was surprised to find just how deep that particular bunny hole goes, and Father Joe is an insightful dude. You have to try to imagine what it would have been like to renounce your Earthly ambitions and devoted your adult life to serving the spiritual needs of others. That, was really surprising 'cause I'd always had a negative view of clergy as a group because of the power structure they represent.