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Post by stardustpilgrim on Jun 24, 2024 23:57:24 GMT -5
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Jun 25, 2024 0:00:31 GMT -5
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Jun 25, 2024 0:08:56 GMT -5
Beginning at 3:18 also shows some dances Gurdjieff also collected, AKA Movements.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Jun 25, 2024 0:11:55 GMT -5
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Post by laughter on Jun 25, 2024 2:45:15 GMT -5
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Jun 25, 2024 8:06:09 GMT -5
I've never read Vonnegut, however, I liked very much the film Slaughterhouse Five. (Billy Pilgrim partially responsible for stardustpilgrim). Better, if the Harmonium had been from Mars. |
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Post by laughter on Jun 25, 2024 12:42:57 GMT -5
I've never read Vonnegut, however, I liked very much the film Slaughterhouse Five. (Billy Pilgrim partially responsible for stardustpilgrim). Better, if the Harmonium had been from Mars. Retracing my steps: Read this (the opening line to Sirens of Titan) when I was like .. maybe 10 years old. Was a lucky time to be alive for a curious boy.  Magic Bus would play on the radio, or some Grateful Dead tune, or Zep's Kashmir, or any one of a number of other hippie classics, like Walrus. I had no idea what any of this, or what Johnathan Livingston Seagull was getting at. No clue! But it all sunk in, subliminally.  ---- (from the wiki):  |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Jun 25, 2024 12:51:49 GMT -5
I've never read Vonnegut, however, I liked very much the film Slaughterhouse Five. (Billy Pilgrim partially responsible for stardustpilgrim). Better, if the Harmonium had been from Mars. Retracing my steps: Read this (the opening line to Sirens of Titan) when I was like .. maybe 10 years old. Was a lucky time to be alive for a curious boy. Magic Bus would play on the radio, or some Grateful Dead tune, or Zep's Kashmir, or any one of a number of other hippie classics, like Walrus. I had no idea what any of this, or what Johnathan Livingston Seagull was getting at. No clue! But it all sunk in, subliminally. When I first heard of JLS a college professor of mine, Dr. Gestwicki, said he was going to give a talk on it that night. I didn't go, as I didn't know I could get the book and read it by talk-time. I'm guessing I was maybe 18 then, or 19. I didn't know anything out-of-the-ordinary, until I was 17, then it all exploded. Yes, you were lucky. |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Jun 28, 2024 9:28:02 GMT -5
There are two meanings to the word idiot. One is the normal meaning of the word. In the Toast of the Idiots, Idiot meant unique. Gurdjieff said he was Idiot #17, it was never named. Idiots 18, 19, 20, 21 were forms of divinity. Most of the time the Toasts never went above 12, as an Idiot above 12 was rare. The Toast of the Idiots was discontinued after Gurdjieff died, as nobody could take his place sizing people up. First time at his table you only heard the names and a description of the Idiots. If you came a second time, you had to choose which Idiot you were. Here, I would say again as I've said many times, don't try to understand the Gurdjieff teaching ~from where you are~, from ND. Have a beginner's mind.
There is a minimum requirement to begin the Gurdjieff Work. It's called being a good householder, the Russian word is obyvatel. That means being able to pay one's way in life, doing all one's duties in life, but not believing in life, not believing life in and of itself goes anywhere. In the descriptions we will come to what a minimum aim is, but you can't work without an aim.
1. The Ordinary Idiot. Bruno Martin, who was a student of JG Bennett, who regularly attended the toasts in 1948 and 1949, says the Tarot card The Fool represents the Ordinary Idiot. So a person finding the Work begins from a peculiar state of not-knowing. There is a sense of taking one step, not knowing where the next step leads. It's beginning in humility in one sense, but in another sense knowing you have not found answers in other teachings you have sought out, maybe you will stay to see if there are answers here. IOW, being an Ordinary Idiot is a very high state, but ATST it's starting like a child, admitting one knows nothing. It's almost like a Bloodhound finding a scent. It's a beginning of getting oriented, finding a hidden compass. And keep in mind that Gurdjieff said at a certain point we have to descend the Idiots and go back to being the Ordinary Idiot (return to the Marketplace, and then move back upwards). It means realizing I am no better than anyone else. It means not worrying about looking foolish, but ATST not knowing an abyss is one step away. One reason Gurdjieff chose Beelzebub as his main character was so as to immediately throw up a barrier which has to be overcome to move forward. He also chose Mullah Nassr Eddin (Mullah Nasruddin) as the wisest of wise sages.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Jun 28, 2024 10:30:23 GMT -5
2. The Super Idiot. Bruno Martin also called this the Complacent Idiot, he (or she) begins to feel special. The struggle is ever with one's personality, the so-called SVP. So one is always subject to not-see self, self can masquerade as being chosen, or even enlightened. This self is always based on illusion and imagination, he is deceived, he thinks he knows more than anyone else, especially more than the Ordinary Idiot. This is the scholar whose cup was full who visited the Zen master showing it, and the master overflowed his cup. The Super Idiot has to be able to empty his cup, admit his own self-deception, he has to see he isn't done, and actually knows very little in fact. Martin says the Tarot card is The Judgement.
3. The Arch Idiot. Gurdjieff was a philologist, he knew many languages, he invented many words in Beelzebub's Tales. He was educated by his Father to be either a Priest or a doctor. He liked the word arch, as in Archbishop or Archangel, and used it often. Beelzebub was a newly rookie in the administration of the Cosmos, and took it upon himself to correct what he saw as a mistake. This was a major screwup, and so he was exiled to the dump-heap of the Cosmos, our Solar System, along with his family, his tribesmen. So at 24 I was interested in who this Beelzebub was. I got a partial satisfactory answer, twice in Beelzebub's Tales, the archcunning Lucifer is mentioned, only mentioned, so I knew Beelzebub wasn't Lucifer.
The Greek word archein means the first, the beginning, or leader. So arch here means the original Idiot. Martin says this is a Pretending Idiot, he is on a path but he has not made the path his own. This is the classic devotee who sits at the feet of the master and believes everything he says, unquestioningly. He is still anchored in the so-called SVP. He is impressed by externals. Martin says the Tarot card is The Sun. The Arch Idiot considers that he has already arrived. His hope is to realize his actual situation, only then does he have the possibility of moving.
tbc
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Jun 28, 2024 12:07:33 GMT -5
4. The Hopeless Idiot. Gurdjieff considered this a significant Idiot. The toast to the health of all Hopeless Idiots was accompanied with an extensive commentary which the Director had to repeat word for word (says Rene Zuber). JG Bennett says this was changed somewhat, but fixed some months before Gurdjieff's death, as follows. "To the health of all Hopeless Idiots, subjectively and objectively. That is to say, to the health of all Hopeless Idiots who are destined for an honorable death and to the health of all Hopeless idiots who are candidates to perishing like dogs".
The objectively Hopeless Idiot uses work, to avoid work. That is, he can go about and preform all kind of exterior tasks, yet neglect the interior practices. IOW, he doesn't yet understand what the Work is all about, he doesn't know what he needs to do to work on oneself. The subjectively Hopeless Idiot has in fact decided to work, and makes serious effort, on his own. Gurdjieff used the occasion of this toast to emphasize that "everyone must have an aim. If you have not an aim you are not a man. This is a very simple aim--not to perish like a dog. Everyone can have this aim. It is not a big aim. It is a small aim. But if you achieve this aim - to die honorably - then perhaps you can set yourself a bigger aim".
JG Bennett further states, "The inescapable force of this presentation was immeasurably enhanced by the deep seriousness with which he spoke. To hear it reiterated day after day was to have something driven into the depths of one's consciousness". The subjectively Hopeless Idiot realizes outer activities and worldly things don't count, whatsoever. This, again, is really understanding ordinary life goes nowhere. This is ceasing to take oneself as the so-called SVP (personality, the Work word), which is an imaginary something, and really working for and from essence. The Tarot card is The Moon. Why The Moon? Because Gurdjieff taught that if we do not work on ourselves, eventually, our essence goes to feed the Moon. Always, the so-called SVP is fertilizer, Gurdjieff liked to use the French word, merde.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Jun 28, 2024 14:38:07 GMT -5
5. The Compassionate Idiot. Gurdjieff told a story to describe 3 types of Compassionate Idiots. There was a man lying starving by the roadside. The true sympathetic Compassionate Idiot will give his last crust of bread to help him. The antipathetic Compassionate Idiot will look around to see if someone is watching him. Maybe his fiance'e or his fiance'e's father is watching from the window. Then he will give his last crust of bread. If no one is watching, he will just keep on going. He may even kick him. Bennett said Gurdjieff said he hated such Idiots. Then there is the "so and so" Compassionate Idiot, sometimes he gives, sometimes he doesn't, it could depend upon the weather. There is a story to describe the antipathetic Compassionate Idiot. Once Mullah Nasruddin was at the edge of a pond and was about to fall in. A fried was nearby and stopped him from falling just in time. Then, afterwards, every time Nasruddin saw the friend the friend reminded him about saving him, week after week. Finally, Nasruddin casually brought the friend to the pond. Then Nasruddin jumped in. With only his head above water, Nasruddin told him, OK, now I'm as wet as I would have been if you had not kept me from falling in. Please never mention your heroics again. The Star is the Tarot card representing the Compassionate Idiot. We must learn to put ourselves in the place of another (Gurdjieff called this external considering), then we can truly be compassionate. We must free ourselves of vanity and pride and self-love, only then can we act selflessly.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Jun 28, 2024 15:17:36 GMT -5
6. The Squirming Idiot. The Squirming Idiot is between two stools, he has genuinely caught the rope of the Work, he has left the stool of ordinary life, but he has not reached the next stage of the Work. He works on himself, but he is afraid of his future. The Tarot card is The Tower. The walls he has built around himself have been hit by lightning, and have crumbled, but he cannot live wholly in the spiritual realm. The Squirming Idiot wants to have his cake and eat it too, he tries to avoid sacrificing his ordinary life, yet he wants more. He squirms between two worlds, and he thinks he is clever. Gurdjieff says he does not realize he is an idiot (in the normal sense). Gurdjieff points out how he is an idiot, and he agrees. But later he asks himself, why am I an idiot? I just bought $1,000 worth of stock and sold it for $2,000, I am not an idiot, Gurdjieff is an idiot for calling me an idiot. Gurdjieff despised cleverness of this type, because the Squirming Idiot cannot see scale, the two different sets of values, worldly and spiritual, the lower and the higher. Gurdjieff said he is like a fish out of water. The fish knows he has only a little bit of time to get back into the water. I try to pick him up and put him in the water, but he squirms out of my hands, so I cannot help him.
JG Bennett says the Squirming Idiot cannot find peace in either world. He is difficult to help, he is trying to live in two worlds, and cannot find peace in either world. He doesn't have the right kind of faith, but he is not hopeless. He struggles, and this is positive merit. Something may result out of the struggle. Our Tower, our so-called SVP, must be struck by lightning, otherwise no help is possible. If ~you~ are struck, the "SVP" (so-called SVP), will not take it as enlightening, but as a travesty. The "SVP" may think he is going crazy, his world is crumbling and he feels worthless. But the Squirming Idiot must see that the tower he has built, his "SVP", is without value, anyway, that he is not really giving up anything. He has to find the strength to move on to the second stool, being between two stools is unbearable. Seeing the lightning strike as valuable can strengthen the decision to work all the harder, to move on. Gurdjieff said a man ("SVP") will do anything except sacrifice his suffering, he will avoid sacrificing his suffering at all costs, because he is his suffering. But he must see that all he has to sacrifice, is his suffering.
The next 3 Idiots are the geometric Idiots, Square, Round and Zigzag.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Jun 29, 2024 10:02:28 GMT -5
"Near a city in Persia, there is a monument on which it is written, ‘The present exists to repair the past and to prepare the future.’ It is just a monument. Simple thing, isn’t it? And at the same time, what a great thing. … It is only with the present that you can repair the past and prepare the future. The future and the past do not exist without the present. The present exists for you to repair all your errors and prepare the future; that is, another life that is desirable for you.
It is very important for you to feel the present. To have a present, you have to do everything possible. You have to be in the present. The past is the past, yesterday, finished; it will never come back. Tomorrow may come: a different tomorrow depends on the present today. Everything has to be done today. Forget yesterday and forget tomorrow. With today, you repair yesterday and you make it possible for yourself to do what is necessary tomorrow."
G.I. Gurdjieff, "Paris Meetings, 1943"
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Aug 20, 2024 5:58:17 GMT -5
Man lives in two worlds. There is the outer world of man and the inner world of man. Ordinarily, these two worlds never meet (which sdp has explained over and over). But it is possible to make an intentional contact between the two worlds. Doing so (many times, over and over), is what forms the third world of man, it is an 'organic' process. Nature, or All That Is, doesn't give this third world, ever, it never comes readymade. The third world doesn't exist for anyone, until it is formed. It never just happens. This is the meaning of the signature quotes. This third world, is the meaning of further.
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Magic Bus would play on the radio, or some Grateful Dead tune, or Zep's Kashmir, or any one of a number of other hippie classics, like Walrus.