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Post by stardustpilgrim on Dec 23, 2023 20:15:12 GMT -5
Knowledge can be acquired by a suitable and complete study, no matter what the starting point is. Only one must know how to ‘learn.’ What is nearest to us is man; and you are the nearest of all men to yourself. Begin with the study of yourself; remember the saying ‘know thyself.’ G.I. Gurdjieff ~ You've mentioned something specific about where Gurdjieff derived most of his ideas. I can't find it. Could you point me in the right direction? I'm curious, because I originally took this maxim 'Know Thyself' to be one of psychological, inward awareness, likely due to my struggles at the time. Then, later, I read that the Greeks typically used it to express that one should understand one's limits, how they fit into society, one's relationship to 'others', etc. There was no 'my soul', but more of a collective sense of the 'soul in me' that others see/know (same root, I think). So, wondering how he might approach the concept. Part 2 Just found this, I've never read it before. Browsed shortly, seems a pretty good article. Am well acquainted with the basic ideas. ~~~~~~~~~~~~ The search begins with finding a spiritual teacher who is in direct contact with the Inner Circle of Humanity. Gurdjieff described this critical step as the ‘first threshold’ and the beginning of the ‘stairway.’ As the seeker ascends the stairway with the help of a guide, he or she eventually reaches the ‘way’ or path of higher development. Gurdjieff stressed that a teacher is necessary to guide the aspirant during the initial preparatory stages of spiritual development. Once the seeker has completely ascended the ‘stairway,’ he or she is capable of completing the spiritual journey alone and of entering the ranks of the Inner Circle. But, there are many challenges and obstacles that must be overcome in climbing the stairway and the aid of a teacher is essential. A Fourth Way school exists to achieve conscious work directed towards a specific aim or undertaking. Once the aim has been achieved the school “disappears from the given place, disappears in its given form, continuing perhaps in another place in another form . . . [These schools] never exist by themselves as schools for the purpose of education and instruction.” (23) When the task of a Fourth Way school is completed the inner dynamic is withdrawn and only the outer shell remains. Yet, the outer form may continue to exist for decades, even centuries. Many of Gurdjieff's students believe that during the course of his travels in the East he made contact with the Inner Circle of Humanity or Masters of Wisdom and derived his teachings from the ancient primordial current of esoteric knowledge that is the root or source of all known spiritual traditions: “He must have gone beyond the surface forms to the very core of these teachings and made them authentically his own.” Gurdjieff acknowledged that he had teachers and had studied in Eastern esoteric schools, although never directly identifying either by name or tradition. Although some of Gurdjieff's students and independent scholars believe that he contacted an esoteric school guided by initiates of the Inner Circle of Humanity who inspired and directed his teaching enterprise, the identity of these guardians of esoteric knowledge has never been ascertained and their nature and mission remains a mystery. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Still looking for the page number of the direct quote (herein) from In Search of the Miraculous. This is very short. found it, good ole Wiki, page 286 In Search of the Miraculous, He agreed that the teaching was esoteric but claimed that none of it was veiled in secrecy but that many people lack the interest or the capability to understand it.[7] Gurdjieff said, " The teaching whose theory is here being set out is completely self supporting and independent of other lines and it has been completely unknown up to the present time." |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Dec 23, 2023 21:15:58 GMT -5
Knowledge can be acquired by a suitable and complete study, no matter what the starting point is. Only one must know how to ‘learn.’ What is nearest to us is man; and you are the nearest of all men to yourself. Begin with the study of yourself; remember the saying ‘know thyself.’ G.I. Gurdjieff ~ You've mentioned something specific about where Gurdjieff derived most of his ideas. I can't find it. Could you point me in the right direction? I'm curious, because I originally took this maxim 'Know Thyself' to be one of psychological, inward awareness, likely due to my struggles at the time. Then, later, I read that the Greeks typically used it to express that one should understand one's limits, how they fit into society, one's relationship to 'others', etc. There was no 'my soul', but more of a collective sense of the 'soul in me' that others see/know (same root, I think). So, wondering how he might approach the concept. Part 3 Later I will try to more directly answer your question. But by "Know thyself" Gurdjieff said the beginning means is self-study, just observe what manifests (sensations, bodily actions, thoughts, feelings/emotions, in basically that order), without evaluation, without criticism, without judgement, being impartial. So (your) inward awareness is the means. |
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Post by inavalan on Dec 24, 2023 0:28:26 GMT -5
Knowledge can be acquired by a suitable and complete study, no matter what the starting point is. Only one must know how to ‘learn.’ What is nearest to us is man; and you are the nearest of all men to yourself. Begin with the study of yourself; remember the saying ‘know thyself.’ G.I. Gurdjieff ~ In my experience, that is true: knowing (learning) how to learn makes a difference. First time I realized it in the college; it helped with efficiency, retention, confidence. It is the same with spiritual development. A difficulty, in this case, is that you don't know what you have to learn, from whom, nor how. Your intuition could help you find better answers to these questions, but you must be careful that whatever you already believe and expect will materialize for you, even when it has no basis in reality. |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Dec 24, 2023 1:20:46 GMT -5
Knowledge can be acquired by a suitable and complete study, no matter what the starting point is. Only one must know how to ‘learn.’ What is nearest to us is man; and you are the nearest of all men to yourself. Begin with the study of yourself; remember the saying ‘know thyself.’ G.I. Gurdjieff ~ In my experience, that is true: knowing (learning) how to learn makes a difference. First time I realized it in the college; it helped with efficiency, retention, confidence. It is the same with spiritual development. A difficulty, in this case, is that you don't know what you have to learn, from whom, nor how. Your intuition could help you find better answers to these questions, but you must be careful that whatever you already believe and expect will materialize for you, even when it has no basis in reality. I had to examine every word to like this, sdp essentially likes. |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Feb 21, 2024 11:45:14 GMT -5
This breaks my time away, temporarily. I was going to drop in for one post April 1st, so this will be instead of that. I just now chanced on this video. It's 15 minutes, a pretty good introduction. It shows some film of Gurdjieff I've never seen before, shows the movements, which he collected, memorized, shows some of the 1977 Peter Brooks film, Meetings With Remarkable Men. It does not give any of the Gurdjieff music, maybe for copyright reasons(?), but the music, which he also collected, memorized, is as distinctive as the movements, much of it written (played for Thomas de Hartmann, who wrote it down as sheet music) to accompany the movements. It has one thing incorrect, the now-popular nine personality types did not come from Gurdjieff, they were invented by Oscar Ichazo (his Arica Institute) and Claudio Naranjo. But there are essence types, which Gurdjieff did teach, but there are more than nine.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on May 15, 2024 22:07:36 GMT -5
www.academia.edu/5838275/A_Gurdjieff_Genealogy_Tracing_the_Manifold_Ways_the_Gurdjieff_Teaching_has_TravelledFrom the link: In 1931, with the publication of his New Model of the Universe, Ouspensky’s meetings began attracting the attention of the literati, and by 1935 he had amassed about one thousand pupils, and bought a large country house with a farm at Virginia Water in Surrey. This was Lyne Place, which became the centre for his work. Ouspensky’s wife,
Sophia Ouspensky, who had spent most of her time from 1920 in France with Gurdjieff,
moved to England to teach there with her husband. Lyne Place was self-supporting; pupils could make hay, grow fruit and vegetables, and keep bees, for the dual purpose of producing food and generating friction between and within pupils. About twenty pupils lived there, while others bought homes in the area. By 1938, about a hundred people visited for Sunday work. Some visitors reported that the atmosphere there was tense (Webb 1980, 400, 405). To accommodate a growing number of pupils, Ouspensky acquired Colet House, in Colet Gardens, London in 1938. It had belonged to the ballet school of Nicholas Legat, whose wife Nadine was a pupil of Ouspensky. Due to the enlargement of his activities, Ouspensky organised an outward cover for Colet House, The Historico-Psychological Society, which was meant to convince officials that nothing subversive was going on (Webb 1980, 409). The success of the Ouspenskys reached its peak in the late 1930s,
though there was a growing division between followers of Ouspensky and those of his
wife, which created internal dissension. This continued when they moved to America in
1941 (Webb 1980, 411, 445). At this time Ouspensky lectured in New York while his
wife taught in New Jersey. He returned to England in 1946 when he became seriously ill. Shortly before his death he told his pupils that there was no system and that they must construct the teaching again from the very beginning (Webb 1980, 450, 458). At the time of his death, Ouspensky’s followers in London numbered around one thousand (Patterson 1996, 183). Sophia Grigorievna Ouspensky (1874-1963) Sophia Ouspensky, known to her pupils as Madame Ouspensky, met Gurdjieff in 1915 through her husband. It is uncertain whether the Ouspenskys were legally married and for much of their lives they were distanced from each other personally and geographically (apparently Sophia was aware that Ouspensky had at least one mistress) (Webb 1980, 136). Sophia spent most of her time from 1920 to 1927 in France with Gurdjieff, despite
the fact that Ouspensky had left Gurdjieff to organise his own groups. She was, by her
own account, Gurdjieff’s pupil (Webb 1980, 390). From 1927 she visited England
occasionally, and in 1931 she moved there after Gurdjieff sent her away. For the next seventeen years she stopped all contact with Gurdjieff and even adopted her husband’s rule of forbidding the mention of Gurdjieff’s name (Webb 1980, 380, 389; Rawlinson 1997, 296). In the 1930s Sophia taught at various country establishments in England, such as the house called the Dell at Sevenoaks, before settling at Lyne Place in Surrey in 1935, where she taught alongside her husband. She became a popular teacher of Gurdjieff’s
ideas, and her teaching methods were strongly modelled on those of Gurdjieff. She did
not comply with Ouspensky’s formal and theoretical approach to the teaching. Accounts
indicate that she was forceful and formidable, deliberately embarrassing her pupils and
speaking in riddles (Collin-Smith 39, 1988). Pupil Robert de Ropp remarks that where
Ouspensky worked on people’s intellect, Sophia worked on their emotions. He regarded
her, rather than Ouspensky, as “the real leader of the work” (de Ropp 1992, 95-96). When the war broke out, the Ouspenskys moved to America and bought Franklin Farms
at Mendham, New Jersey, a former residence of the Governor of New Jersey (Webb 1980, 389, 394). Sophia remained there when Ouspensky returned to England in 1946. After Ouspensky’s death in 1947, Sophia recommended that all her pupils, as well as
those of her husband, make contact with Gurdjieff in Paris (Rawlinson 1997, 297). About half of Ouspensky’s former pupils, under Kenneth Walker, obeyed this instruction (Webb 1980, 462). In 1948 Gurdjieff visited Franklin Farms, with the hope of consolidating
‘Ouspensky people’ and ‘Gurdjieff people’ (Webb 1980, 389; Wellbeloved 2003, 234).
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Post by stardustpilgrim on May 19, 2024 19:32:10 GMT -5
“Consciousness is a state in which a man knows all at once everything that he in general knows and in which he can see how little he does know and how many contradictions there are in what he knows.”
"Conscience is a state in which a man feels all at once everything that he in general feels, or can feel. If a man whose entire inner world is composed of contradictions, were to suddenly feel all these contradictions simultaneously within himself, this would be a state which is called 'conscience'. Conscience is the same for all men. 'Conscience' has nothing in common with the concept 'morality'. We teach how to find conscience."
“You must learn not what people round you consider good or bad, but to act in life as your conscience bids you. An untrammelled conscience will always know more than all the books and teachers put together.”
“It is very difficult also to sacrifice one’s suffering. A man will renounce any pleasures you like but he will not give up his suffering.”
“Until you stop being governed by your emotions you cannot be impartial.”
“Try to understand what I am saying: everything is dependent on everything else, everything is connected, nothing is separate. Therefore everything is going in the only way it can go. If people were different everything would be different. They are what they are, so everything is as it is.”
“Everything existing in the world “falls to the bottom.” The “bottom” for any part of the Universe is its nearest “stability,” and this stability is the point toward which all the lines of force from all directions converge.”
“He who has gotten rid of the disease of “tomorrow” has a chance of achieving what he is here for.”
“You are in prison. If you wish to get out of prison, the first thing you must do is realize that you are in prison. If you think you are free, you can’t escape.”
“In order to understand the interrelation of truth and falsehood in life, a man must understand falsehood in himself, the constant incessant lies he tells himself.”
“Man is a machine. All his deeds, actions, words, thoughts, feelings, convictions, and habits are the result of external influences. Out of himself a man cannot produce a single thought, a single action. Everything he says, does, thinks, feels – all this happens. Man is born, lives, dies, builds houses, writes books, not as he wants to, but as it happens. Everything happens. Man does not love, hate, desire – all this happens.”
“Time in itself does not exist, there is only the totality of the results issuing from all the cosmic phenomena present in a given place.”
“The highest that a man can attain is to be able to do.”
“The one great art is that of making a complete human being of oneself.”
“The highest aim and the meaning even of human life is to strive to do your best for the wellbeing of your neighbor, which is only possible by renouncing your own self-interest.”
“The Work is about making personality passive, a servant rather than a master.”
“In my opinion, what will be troublesome for you in all this is chiefly that in childhood there was implanted in you – and has now become perfectly harmonized with your general psyche – an excellently working automatism for perceiving all kinds of new impressions, thanks to which “blessing” you have now, during your responsible life, no need to make any individual effort whatsoever.”
“Only he will deserve the name of “man” and can count upon anything prepared for them from above, who has already acquired corresponding data for being able to preserve intact both the wolf and the sheep entrusted to his care.”
“What you call the subconscious, is in my opinion the real human consciousness.”
“I teach that when it rains the pavement gets wet.”
“What you took as yourself begins to look like a little prison-house far away in the valley beneath you.”
“To awaken means to realize one’s nothingness, that is, to realize one’s complete and absolute mechanicalness, and one’s complete and absolute helplessness... So long as a man is not horrified at himself, he knows nothing about himself.”
— G.I. Gurdjieff
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Post by zendancer on May 20, 2024 2:38:41 GMT -5
“Consciousness is a state in which a man knows all at once everything that he in general knows and in which he can see how little he does know and how many contradictions there are in what he knows.” "Finding buried conscience, a man feels all at once everything that he in general feels, and so he feels all his inner contradictions all at once. This brings suffering. Conscience is the same for all men everywhere, morality is subjective and depends upon culture. To continue work, you eventually have to find your conscience." “You must learn not what people round you consider good or bad, but to act in life as your conscience bids you. An untrammelled conscience will always know more than all the books and teachers put together.” “It is very difficult also to sacrifice one’s suffering. A man will renounce any pleasures you like but he will not give up his suffering.” “Until you stop being governed by your emotions you cannot be impartial.” “Try to understand what I am saying: everything is dependent on everything else, everything is connected, nothing is separate. Therefore everything is going in the only way it can go. If people were different everything would be different. They are what they are, so everything is as it is.” “Everything existing in the world “falls to the bottom.” The “bottom” for any part of the Universe is its nearest “stability,” and this stability is the point toward which all the lines of force from all directions converge.” “He who has gotten rid of the disease of “tomorrow” has a chance of achieving what he is here for.” “You are in prison. If you wish to get out of prison, the first thing you must do is realize that you are in prison. If you think you are free, you can’t escape.” “In order to understand the interrelation of truth and falsehood in life, a man must understand falsehood in himself, the constant incessant lies he tells himself.” “Man is a machine. All his deeds, actions, words, thoughts, feelings, convictions, and habits are the result of external influences. Out of himself a man cannot produce a single thought, a single action. Everything he says, does, thinks, feels – all this happens. Man is born, lives, dies, builds houses, writes books, not as he wants to, but as it happens. Everything happens. Man does not love, hate, desire – all this happens.” “Time in itself does not exist, there is only the totality of the results issuing from all the cosmic phenomena present in a given place.” “The highest that a man can attain is to be able to do.” “The one great art is that of making a complete human being of oneself.” “The highest aim and the meaning even of human life is to strive to do your best for the wellbeing of your neighbor, which is only possible by renouncing your own self-interest.” “The Work is about making personality passive, a servant rather than a master.” “In my opinion, what will be troublesome for you in all this is chiefly that in childhood there was implanted in you – and has now become perfectly harmonized with your general psyche – an excellently working automatism for perceiving all kinds of new impressions, thanks to which “blessing” you have now, during your responsible life, no need to make any individual effort whatsoever.” “Only he will deserve the name of “man” and can count upon anything prepared for them from above, who has already acquired corresponding data for being able to preserve intact both the wolf and the sheep entrusted to his care.” “What you call the subconscious, is in my opinion the real human consciousness.” “I teach that when it rains the pavement gets wet.” “What you took as yourself begins to look like a little prison-house far away in the valley beneath you.” “To awaken means to realize one’s nothingness, that is, to realize one’s complete and absolute mechanicalness, and one’s complete and absolute helplessness... So long as a man is not horrified at himself, he knows nothing about himself.” — G.I. Gurdjieff Nice quotes. Sounds like ND 101. "I teach that when it rains the pavement gets wet." That's pure Zen, condensed into one sentence. Nothing complicated, no levels, just THIS. It makes me wonder if G's followers later "added legs to a snake." |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on May 20, 2024 9:45:03 GMT -5
“Consciousness is a state in which a man knows all at once everything that he in general knows and in which he can see how little he does know and how many contradictions there are in what he knows.” "Finding buried conscience, a man feels all at once everything that he in general feels, and so he feels all his inner contradictions all at once. This brings suffering. Conscience is the same for all men everywhere, morality is subjective and depends upon culture. To continue work, you eventually have to find your conscience." “You must learn not what people round you consider good or bad, but to act in life as your conscience bids you. An untrammelled conscience will always know more than all the books and teachers put together.” “It is very difficult also to sacrifice one’s suffering. A man will renounce any pleasures you like but he will not give up his suffering.” “Until you stop being governed by your emotions you cannot be impartial.” “Try to understand what I am saying: everything is dependent on everything else, everything is connected, nothing is separate. Therefore everything is going in the only way it can go. If people were different everything would be different. They are what they are, so everything is as it is.” “Everything existing in the world “falls to the bottom.” The “bottom” for any part of the Universe is its nearest “stability,” and this stability is the point toward which all the lines of force from all directions converge.” “He who has gotten rid of the disease of “tomorrow” has a chance of achieving what he is here for.” “You are in prison. If you wish to get out of prison, the first thing you must do is realize that you are in prison. If you think you are free, you can’t escape.” “In order to understand the interrelation of truth and falsehood in life, a man must understand falsehood in himself, the constant incessant lies he tells himself.” “Man is a machine. All his deeds, actions, words, thoughts, feelings, convictions, and habits are the result of external influences. Out of himself a man cannot produce a single thought, a single action. Everything he says, does, thinks, feels – all this happens. Man is born, lives, dies, builds houses, writes books, not as he wants to, but as it happens. Everything happens. Man does not love, hate, desire – all this happens.” “Time in itself does not exist, there is only the totality of the results issuing from all the cosmic phenomena present in a given place.” “The highest that a man can attain is to be able to do.” “The one great art is that of making a complete human being of oneself.” “The highest aim and the meaning even of human life is to strive to do your best for the wellbeing of your neighbor, which is only possible by renouncing your own self-interest.” “The Work is about making personality passive, a servant rather than a master.” “In my opinion, what will be troublesome for you in all this is chiefly that in childhood there was implanted in you – and has now become perfectly harmonized with your general psyche – an excellently working automatism for perceiving all kinds of new impressions, thanks to which “blessing” you have now, during your responsible life, no need to make any individual effort whatsoever.” “Only he will deserve the name of “man” and can count upon anything prepared for them from above, who has already acquired corresponding data for being able to preserve intact both the wolf and the sheep entrusted to his care.” “What you call the subconscious, is in my opinion the real human consciousness.” “I teach that when it rains the pavement gets wet.” “What you took as yourself begins to look like a little prison-house far away in the valley beneath you.” “To awaken means to realize one’s nothingness, that is, to realize one’s complete and absolute mechanicalness, and one’s complete and absolute helplessness... So long as a man is not horrified at himself, he knows nothing about himself.” — G.I. Gurdjieff Nice quotes. Sounds like ND 101. "I teach that when it rains the pavement gets wet." That's pure Zen, condensed into one sentence. Nothing complicated, no levels, just THIS. It makes me wonder if G's followers later "added legs to a snake." I have said to you many times, I agree with you up to here, but there's more, there's further. The quotes must be, for you, the up to here. Basically, as concerns the further, Gurdjieff introduced scale (as above, so below). Further, what's unseen, does not negate what's seen. For some, a molehill is a mountain, for some, a mountain is a molehill. These were in a collection of over 100 quotes, I selected these out. In the collection there wasn't a comparable quote about conscience as there was about consciousness, so I crafted a quote from memory (the second quote). I just replaced it with direct quotes. If I look at a tree, I can't take-in all that the tree is, and how it functions. I can't see that below ground, the tree is as extensive as what I can see, there are as many roots as branches. If I study the tree, the actual thing, I can come to experience more that it is, that it converts the energy of sunlight to chemical energy, for instance. For a long time botanists did not know how water travels to the top of a tree, as at a certain point gravity, theoretically, overcomes the upward movement. But they came to understand that water evaporating from a leaf overcomes gravity all the way down to the roots, like sucking a straw. Now, me putting that into words just now, conceptually, does not negate the actual process. Yes, the words are merely conceptual, but they can correspond and describe an actual process in-the-world, that is, the words, the concepts, are not merely imaginary. So, no, later followers did not add to what Gurdjieff taught (that's why he decided to spend over ten years of his life, writing it down, in theory, in three books). Most of it is theoretical, for us, it wasn't theoretical for Gurdjieff. For Gurdjieff, the words corresponded to actuality. I have written, here, a lot of the complicated stuff, it wasn't imaginary for Gurdjieff, not as snake legs. [However, in Beelzebub's Tales he did say clearly that he "puffed it up". That means he did add superfluous stuff, "snake legs", deliberately. So some things do leave you scratching your head, but Beelzebub's Tales is an allegory, too. (To make it even more complicated, Gurdjieff put in deliberate inexactitudes, he also called it the law of otherwise)]. But, to your basic point, correctly, the teaching has been watered down. There are now hundreds of books, some by people who have merely studied the books, and have written books about the books, who have no connection with students or students of students of Gurdjieff. And Gurdjieff wrote and said this always happens, that it happened with Buddha, it happened with Jesus. IOW, Gurdjieff anticipated the teaching would get scrambled, so spent over ten years in an artificial life as a writer, to get it down in theory. And he continued to tweak Beelzebub's Tales, by watching people, mostly his own students, as it was read to them. When he got it like he wanted it and publication was nailed down with Harcourt, Brace and Company, he said, now I can die (and he did). So the student has to come to discern what's superfluous from what's not, through actually *studying the tree, scientifically* (called self-study), by coming to actually understand, through practice. Some things cannot be put into words, this is the Chuang Tzu story of the wheelwright. You have skill as a builder that you cannot directly pass on to another, through words. So, "First you have to row a little boat". It's always up to the person, the student, to want to go further (Captain a ship). At a certain point the student has to come to understand what's objective knowledge (Gurdjieff's words) and what's not (the puffed up parts), to be able to go further. It's a part of the process. IOW, deliberately, at certain places, the student has to actually construct the next rung of the ladder, to get to a higher step. Some people will look at the teaching and 'throw the baby out with the bathwater'. That was fine with Gurdjieff. He was a 'Bodhidharma' who made Huike stand out in the snow. Once he gave a talk at Carnegie Hall. There were hundreds of people there. He proceeded to 'weed them out' by offending them in one manner or another. Eventually he got the crowd down to about 25-30 people, and said, OK, now we can start. Just to add, when Gurdjieff died, his last words were: "I have left you in one fine mess". |
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Post by sharon on May 20, 2024 15:46:46 GMT -5
"I could sit with a tree for a week." ~ David Scoma. |
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Post by zendancer on May 21, 2024 1:12:17 GMT -5
The mind makes everything complicated whereas the actuality is so simple and obvious. The idea of "more," like most ideas, is an idea that makes the looker overlook what is looking.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Jun 7, 2024 10:52:05 GMT -5
Everything begins with aim, that is, goal. Aim is a kind of compass, it orients everything.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Jun 24, 2024 23:29:40 GMT -5
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Jun 24, 2024 23:43:04 GMT -5
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Jun 24, 2024 23:48:10 GMT -5
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