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Post by Portto on Nov 10, 2009 9:53:46 GMT -5
... The ZM asked him if he could keep his enlightened understanding at all times. The student answered that he could. Then the ZM asked him, "Can you keep it even in deep dreamless sleep?" I am by no means a ZM (quite the opposite), but I have a similar question: How many of you are able to keep your understanding while dreaming? Do you still have some dreams when you're a separated individual (when the ego is present)? |
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Post by lightmystic on Nov 10, 2009 12:23:03 GMT -5
While I am not a ZM either  I can honestly say that, at this point, it is more real for me than even the physical world. So yes, it goes on while waking, dreaming, and deep sleep..... ... The ZM asked him if he could keep his enlightened understanding at all times. The student answered that he could. Then the ZM asked him, "Can you keep it even in deep dreamless sleep?" I am by no means a ZM (quite the opposite), but I have a similar question: How many of you are able to keep your understanding while dreaming? Do you still have some dreams when you're a separated individual (when the ego is present)? |
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Post by lightmystic on Nov 10, 2009 12:25:30 GMT -5
I used to, a long time ago, but I forget now. An old life passes like so many dreams.... Perhaps if I extended my index finger? LM: Try as I might, I can't find any one of those three things. Do you have any idea where to look for them? ZD |
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Post by lightmystic on Nov 10, 2009 12:32:03 GMT -5
If Eckhart Tolle and UG were one person, then the answer that person would give would be the correct one (which is not to imply that either of them are wrong, just that it's not on the intellectual level, and so the question does not apply). Enlightenment is a good investment in the way discovering that you not a person but an actual money supply is a good source of stock selection. Is nonduality necessarily incompatible with hardcore materialism? UG says no, Eckhart Tolle says yes. Who am I supposed to believe? It looks like nonduality has a fantastic return on investment equation, sort of like Pascal's Wager. It may sound totally ridiculous to you, but that's how I, and I suspect most other seekers think (consciously or unconsciously). I realize that my desire for enlightenment is very similar to that of owning a Ferrari or being with Jessica Alba. I don't recognize in me that existential need that I read of so often in other people's account. It's like "Hey if it works: great, nice bonus! If it doesn't: who cares, I live I die just like everyone else, no big deal." It's my gut that says: "Forget about it, it's not even possible". My rational mind says "Dude, you do understand Gödel's incompleteness theorem, right? So never say never!" It's really simple. I have some time and energy to spend and I want to achieve the highest return on my investment. Then I take a look at what they offer in the spiritual marketplace. Christianity, Islam and the other religions are obviously out of the question. But nonduality looks like it promises the most complete, the fastest and the easiest way to enlightenment and on top of that it is totally up to date, it has no mythological baggage, doesn't seem to be interested in exploiting people, it's safe etc. So after careful consideration I figured that this nonduality thing might be worth a shot. I mean, it's not like my infinite self talked me into it in some way, at least I don't remember having such a conversation. lol that's hilarious isn't it? Edit: And to be fair I must also add, that I've experienced some incredible synchronicities and lucid dreams with spiritual content and suggestions that I'm not a hopeless case. Those things influenced the direction of my life and made me aware that there is a possibility of such an investment. |
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Post by zendancer on Nov 10, 2009 12:33:07 GMT -5
Yes, everything is contained in that finger! Another classic response is, "Would you like a cup of tea?" Any direct action is reality manifesting "just like this." No thinking; just this.
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Post by zendancer on Nov 10, 2009 12:57:44 GMT -5
Porto: Our subconscious contains everything, so there's no telling what will bubble up during REM sleep. I have all kinds of dreams. In some of them I'm teaching about the truth and trying to show people how to find it. In others, I'm involved in plots involving an ordinary identity. This is not different than how it is in the ordinary world. If you call Byron Katie's name or Adyashanti's name, he or she will turn around and respond to you. They live like anyone else; they do not stay in some esoteric or blissful state of mind. They have ordinary thoughts and do ordinary things, but they are not attached to their thoughts or their conventional identity. They have experienced their oneness and never forget the underlying truth of their being, but this does not translate into some sort of "otherworldly" outlook. Life, from their perspective, is simple, direct, immediate, and ordinary. Unlike most people, they are not jerked around by crazy ideas about how the world "should" be or what "should" be happening. They don;t get lost in fantasies and reflections, and they spend a great deal of their time directly perceiving reality. They accept what is as it is. They know who they are and do not second-guess themselves. They feel a great deal of gratitude as well as compassion. They have learned not to believe their thoughts. They don't waste any time trying to attain anything because they are content with what is. They do not think they are special and they have no interest in being special. They are teachers, so their primary interest is in helping other people find what they found. Other people find the same thing as BK and A and do not become teachers.
The main point I'm making is that life after awakening to oneness is not special. You know the truth but you go about your daily business like anyone else. Cheers.
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Post by lightmystic on Nov 10, 2009 16:48:23 GMT -5
Well said. It's kind of like discovering you have arms when you didn't know before. It opens a world of possibilities, options, amazing things, and you may be incredibly grateful for them. But no matter how grateful one is and how much one appreciates it, one eventually gets over it, accepting that having arms is a natural part of life and go live their life. A life having arms. Porto: Our subconscious contains everything, so there's no telling what will bubble up during REM sleep. I have all kinds of dreams. In some of them I'm teaching about the truth and trying to show people how to find it. In others, I'm involved in plots involving an ordinary identity. This is not different than how it is in the ordinary world. If you call Byron Katie's name or Adyashanti's name, he or she will turn around and respond to you. They live like anyone else; they do not stay in some esoteric or blissful state of mind. They have ordinary thoughts and do ordinary things, but they are not attached to their thoughts or their conventional identity. They have experienced their oneness and never forget the underlying truth of their being, but this does not translate into some sort of "otherworldly" outlook. Life, from their perspective, is simple, direct, immediate, and ordinary. Unlike most people, they are not jerked around by crazy ideas about how the world "should" be or what "should" be happening. They don;t get lost in fantasies and reflections, and they spend a great deal of their time directly perceiving reality. They accept what is as it is. They know who they are and do not second-guess themselves. They feel a great deal of gratitude as well as compassion. They have learned not to believe their thoughts. They don't waste any time trying to attain anything because they are content with what is. They do not think they are special and they have no interest in being special. They are teachers, so their primary interest is in helping other people find what they found. Other people find the same thing as BK and A and do not become teachers. The main point I'm making is that life after awakening to oneness is not special. You know the truth but you go about your daily business like anyone else. Cheers. |
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Post by souley on Nov 10, 2009 17:18:09 GMT -5
So, I will not experience myself as the center of the universe, infinite and all that stuff? It is totally ordinary? This idea is very dear to me, do I have to give it up?
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Post by Portto on Nov 10, 2009 18:11:45 GMT -5
Thank you Zendancer and Lightmystic! This is very helpful!
It is interesting how different the surface manifestation of your experiences are.
LM is having an out-of-this world experience, while ZD is back to "chop wood and carry water."
I am a habitual thinker, and I used to over-analyze everything. After I was briefly knocked-out by a collision with an infinite chain of "dependencies," I had some very mild metaphysical experiences. They are completely gone now, but I had a super-egoic dream last night ;D.
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Post by zendancer on Nov 10, 2009 21:56:00 GMT -5
Souley: OMG, No! Don't give up any idea you don't want to give up. That's one of the main things that distinguishes this path from all the others. No one here can tell you what you to do because nobody here knows what you ought to do! Isn't that great? You're free to screw up any way you please....and no matter what you do we will be very understanding and feel lots of compassion for you! Do you feel better now?
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Post by lightmystic on Nov 11, 2009 11:28:17 GMT -5
Well, the feeling will be there no matter what, though it may not look like you expect it will on the surface (usually doesn't). That said, it doesn't mean you cannot know yourself as the Creator of the universe, it just means that even that experience becomes ordinary. Because it's simply another recognition of what has always already been going on.... So, I will not experience myself as the center of the universe, infinite and all that stuff? It is totally ordinary? This idea is very dear to me, do I have to give it up? |
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Post by souley on Nov 11, 2009 11:49:17 GMT -5
As I read one of your posts ZD, I just realized how attached I was to some idea along those lines. It is pretty obvious and kind of funny when you see through attachment, right?
So by seeing the attachment, the idea is now more of an idea then a subconscious resistance to what is.
No need to give it up or not really, it is what it is!
It seems the more things unwind, everything just is as it is.. Sometimes I can feel some things that are a bit extraordinary, but more often it is just an acceptance of the ordinary and a feeling of freedom.
Thanks to both of you!
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Post by divinity on Nov 14, 2009 10:51:28 GMT -5
Emotional Freedom... Anyone practicing the Emotional Freedom Techniques? The spiritual path is always easier when the physical form is not constantly shrieking for attention with pain and negative thinking. You can download for free the EFT manual at emofree.com. I went to a workshop 4 weeks ago at which the technique was demonstrated, and despite my physically and emotionally stressful job, I am pain free and now using EFT to fine tune my body and mind. It's worth looking into. I am not connected to that site and have nothing to gain from anyone downloading it btw.
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Post by Portto on Nov 16, 2009 21:02:40 GMT -5
Our subconscious contains everything, so there's no telling what will bubble up during REM sleep. It is quite obvious to everybody that there is no one controlling the dreams. On the other hand, we like to think that we control our thoughts. Could dreams be a "built-in pointer" that we don't control our thoughts either? |
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Post by Portto on Nov 16, 2009 21:08:43 GMT -5
Emotional Freedom... Anyone practicing the Emotional Freedom Techniques? I don't, but I heard a lot of insightful people recommending these techniques. However, ultimately, we don't control anything - including emotions. |
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I can honestly say that, at this point, it is more real for me than even the physical world. So yes, it goes on while waking, dreaming, and deep sleep.....