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Post by zendancer on Nov 8, 2009 23:58:57 GMT -5
I think that all fantasies, positive or negative, blind us to what is. Most of us live in a thought-dominated world and are unconsciously and constantly jerked around by our thoughts from one extreme to another. Looking forward to the weekend (which causes us to feel elated) and dreading going back to work (which causes us to be depressed), are the same kind of process. In both cases we are not psychologically present because we are experiencing a kind of dream (one is "a good dream" and the other is "a bad dream"). The whole point is to wake up and become present, and it doesn't really matter whether one polarity "causes" the other. What matters is throwing away both polarities.
Most of us are entertained, or justified, or saddened by our stories about who we are----"I'm brilliant. I'm stupid. I always make the same mistakes. I always pick the wrong men (women). Life is not fair. Things shouldn't be this way. I'm a loser because I was abused by my parents. I'm a much more high-minded spiritual person than other people. I'm special because________" ad infinitum. These are all fictions, and have nothing to do with the truth.
I love the story about Martha and her sister (was it Sarah? I can't remember) in the New Testatment. Jesus comes to visit, and Sarah sits down with the men to listen to his teaching. Martha, the hostess, becomes highly irritated and frustrated. She says to Jesus, "Why don't you make Sarah come help me in the kitchen?" Jesus replies, in effect, "Martha, Martha, you have all of these ideas that are driving you crazy. Throw them all away and see what is in front of your eyes. Sarah is doing exactly what she has to be doing whereas you are living totally in your head." The actual lines in the Bible are better, but this is the gist of what he said. If you are a host or hostess, do something or don't do something, but drop the martyr story, or the victim story, or the super-hostess story, or any other story. Whatever story you are telling yourself (to the degree that you believe it) separates you from reality.
One of the best books on the market that elucidates how to recognize and cut through the lies we tell ourselves is "Loving What Is," by Byron Katie. She points out that our negative feelings always come from unexamined thoughts that we believe are true. For those who aren't familiar with Byron Katie, in 1986? she was an angry depressed forty-two year old woman who had checked herself into a halfway house. She was staying in the attic (because everyone was afraid of her) and sleeping on the floor (because she felt unworthy of sleeping in a bed). One night a roach crawled across her foot and she had an experience very much like Eckhart Tolle. She woke up and began to laugh. Soon thereafter, she began to question all of her thinking, and she discovered that her thinking was the source of all of her problems. She devised four simple questions that she used for cutting through all the nonsense in her head. Afterwards, she began teaching the technique to others. All of her books are illuminating, but seeing her in action during a one or two-day workshop is amazing. I went to see her in Louisville three years ago, and her clarity was astonishing. If she comes to a city near you (check out her website for her itinerary), I can strongly recommend spending a day with her. She has the sharpest sword on the planet for cutting through the garbage in our heads. ZD
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Post by question on Nov 9, 2009 1:27:38 GMT -5
For Question: I have been preoccupied with deep sleep for quite a while. One of the best answers is that continuity is not in the mind, but in consciousness/awareness/being. We expect the mind to be continuous - and obviously it's not. Mind is a temporary manifestation. That the mind has no continuity is obvious. But it's not obvious to me that awareness or consciousness is continuous or that it is the same as being. To me it looks like awareness is emergent from Being: first being, then awareness. No body, no awareness. That's a good question, Question, but there is no satisfactory verbal answer to it. You already know the answer, but it is inside you. No one can give it to you. If you are extremely serious about the question, then all you have to do is bear the question in mind and leave reflective thoughts behind. Use the question to burn through the intellect and reveal the truth. It only takes one glimpse, and if that happens, it will become obvious that who you really are is infinite in time and space. All of your ideas about continuity through deep sleep, birth and death, cerebral processes, etc. will totally evaporate. One glimpse, and I guarantee that you will start laughing uncontrollably. Actually I've been looking for a question to absorb me as a koan for weeks now. I couldn't find one. Then I've been thinking on what you said until it hit me, I didn't realize it before: I won't, I can't make this or any other question into a koan, because I already know the answer. Deep down I really really believe that we are purely physical beings and that if there is anything called enlightenment then it is simply a function of the brain. If I were enlightened and somebody would chop my head off, then that would be the end of my awareness and enlightenment. I don't even care to question this belief because I think there's no way that it could be otherwise, and even if somehow it were, there's no way on earth to find out for myself that my belief that it is otherwise is not simply another function of the brain. And maybe this is why I have no honest desire for enlightenment, because I feel like being enlightened is to just have another trick in my bag. There is only one serious question that remains: "Why is there something instead of nothing". This one is interesting, it isn't personal, it has nothing to do with me. But since I know that there is no way to approach this question (other than deconstructing its semantics), I don't even care to try. |
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Post by zendancer on Nov 9, 2009 9:22:24 GMT -5
Question: If you only have one serious question, then contemplate that question. "Why is there something instead of nothing?" It's a great question, and it has a simple obvious answer, but if I told you the answer, you'd never believe me. You are strongly attached to your ideas, and that is wonderful. When you break through the barrier you've created, the effect will be much stronger than usual. So, you've got your koan. "Why is there something instead of nothing?" The truth is staring you in the face, but you can't see it, and that, too, is perfect. You don't have to think about a koan in order to solve it; just bear it in mind. Why? Why? Why? Why is there something instead of nothing? Let us know what happens when the answer suddenly appears.
I never presume what other people should do because I have no idea what they should do. My brother is an atheist, my sister is a born-again fundamentalist Christian, and what I am is unimaginable. What a fascinating world this is! I love the fact that I get to interact with people who have all kinds of interesting ideas (it keeps me from getting bored!).
I am curious, however, about one tiny itsy bitsy little thing. If you are 100% certain that we are purely physical beings and there is no way that it could be otherwise, then I wonder why you are posting on a website that is devoted to helping people wake up and discover their infiniteness? There's no need to answer the question here; just take a quiet look inside yourself and consider what prompted you to come read the writings of a bunch of crazy people who see themselves as much more than purely physical beings. You might find something curious about that as well. Cheers.
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Post by karen on Nov 9, 2009 10:21:05 GMT -5
I remember listening to UG when I realized there was no god, or spirituality etc..
Of course, what I really realized was that my concept of god was impossible.
At this point the question is it's 6 or "half a dozen". Because it's clear that what is is god. God is just a word.
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Post by lightmystic on Nov 9, 2009 12:47:20 GMT -5
Well, for me, Awareness does not go away in deep sleep, it's just that the mind shuts down. So there is no idea of "other things" for the Awareness to notice. It's just Awareness without outside objects if you will.  Wow that's interesting. How can one claim to participate in the continuity of something absolute if its presence can't be recognized in deep sleep? And if it isn't present in deep sleep, then how can one say that it will be present after death? Unless of course, consciousness is just one of many expressions of the absolute and is not entitled to be continuous or to perceive the continuity of the absolute. But still, how can it be possible to recognize the absolute clearly, if it can't be recognized in the abscence of consciousness? Btw, the fact that I am not there in deep sleep is one of the reasons why I doubt that awareness is not simply the result of a cerebral process. |
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Post by lightmystic on Nov 9, 2009 12:48:37 GMT -5
So ZD, Is your Enlightened Understanding there all the time? Porto: Yes, I've read similar statements by other people, but it just hasn't been my experience. Maybe some people are conscious in deep sleep and others are not. I have no idea, but even if it's possible, I don't see any reason to make it a goal. I remember reading about an exchange between a famous Zen Master and one of his enlightened students. The student told the ZM that he was leaving the monastery in order to start teaching. The ZM asked him if he could keep his enlightened understanding at all times. The student answered that he could. Then the ZM asked him, "Can you keep it even in deep dreamless sleep?" That question paralyzed the student's mind, and he couldn't find an answer. This caused the student to stay and study with the ZM a while longer because it showed him that he still lacked some clarity. I would have answered the ZM's first question very differently, so I don't know where the conversation would have gone from there. I hope a ZM asks me that kind of question some time in the future, so that I can find out what will happen. LOL. |
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Post by lightmystic on Nov 9, 2009 12:51:52 GMT -5
Hehe, that is a great question. With a great answer. Question: If you only have one serious question, then contemplate that question. "Why is there something instead of nothing?" It's a great question, and it has a simple obvious answer, but if I told you the answer, you'd never believe me. |
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Post by zendancer on Nov 9, 2009 13:46:06 GMT -5
Lightmystic: How could such a horrible thing exist? (LOL) ZD
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Post by lightmystic on Nov 9, 2009 15:03:18 GMT -5
Hehe. When you ask how such a horrible thing could exist, are you talking about Enlightenment, Enlightened Understanding, or Time? Lightmystic: How could such a horrible thing exist? (LOL) ZD |
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Post by zendancer on Nov 9, 2009 17:43:10 GMT -5
LM: Try as I might, I can't find any one of those three things. Do you have any idea where to look for them? ZD
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Post by question on Nov 9, 2009 18:42:01 GMT -5
I am curious, however, about one tiny itsy bitsy little thing. If you are 100% certain that we are purely physical beings and there is no way that it could be otherwise, then I wonder why you are posting on a website that is devoted to helping people wake up and discover their infiniteness? There's no need to answer the question here; just take a quiet look inside yourself and consider what prompted you to come read the writings of a bunch of crazy people who see themselves as much more than purely physical beings. You might find something curious about that as well. Cheers. Is nonduality necessarily incompatible with hardcore materialism? UG says no, Eckhart Tolle says yes. Who am I supposed to believe? It looks like nonduality has a fantastic return on investment equation, sort of like Pascal's Wager. It may sound totally ridiculous to you, but that's how I, and I suspect most other seekers think (consciously or unconsciously). I realize that my desire for enlightenment is very similar to that of owning a Ferrari or being with Jessica Alba. I don't recognize in me that existential need that I read of so often in other people's account. It's like "Hey if it works: great, nice bonus! If it doesn't: who cares, I live I die just like everyone else, no big deal." It's my gut that says: "Forget about it, it's not even possible". My rational mind says "Dude, you do understand Gödel's incompleteness theorem, right? So never say never!" It's really simple. I have some time and energy to spend and I want to achieve the highest return on my investment. Then I take a look at what they offer in the spiritual marketplace. Christianity, Islam and the other religions are obviously out of the question. But nonduality looks like it promises the most complete, the fastest and the easiest way to enlightenment and on top of that it is totally up to date, it has no mythological baggage, doesn't seem to be interested in exploiting people, it's safe etc. So after careful consideration I figured that this nonduality thing might be worth a shot. I mean, it's not like my infinite self talked me into it in some way, at least I don't remember having such a conversation. lol that's hilarious isn't it? Edit: And to be fair I must also add, that I've experienced some incredible synchronicities and lucid dreams with spiritual content and suggestions that I'm not a hopeless case. Those things influenced the direction of my life and made me aware that there is a possibility of such an investment. |
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alpha
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Post by alpha on Nov 9, 2009 20:01:01 GMT -5
Alpha: I can't believe it. I lost another incredibly long post because I forgot to copy the d**n thing before hitting the reply button. Maybe this will teach me once and for all to copy before sending anything. Oh man, this is sickening. Oh well, let's see if I can reconstruct it. What you seem to be describing in stage 2, above, is what Zen people call "samadhi." It occurs when there is virtually no intellectual activity. As you say, it is very subtle, and if more than one or two thoughts occur, the state will dissipate. If only one thought drifts by, it may continue, but if two or three thoughts occur in succession, it will end. I started to fall into samadhi one night and thought, "OMG, I'm falling into samadhi. I've been hoping this would happen." That was all it took for it to go away. LOL. To make it continue, there has to be such a strong focus on isness that thoughts do not occur. As you say, it is not something under the control of personal volition. However, it can occur regularly if someone is meditating regularly and with a fair degree of intensity and focus. There is a distinct entry point into that state, and it is often accompanied by various body phenomena--primarily a skin surface numbness that spreads from the hands to the arms, shoulders, neck, and then head. It is called "the off sensation." Have you felt anything like that? At one point, in about 1994, I concluded that samadhi was the key to enlightenment (just one of my many crazy ideas along the way), and I started making an effort to get into samadhi by doing some serious formal meditation. Sure enough, after several weeks, I got to where I could fall into a shallow samadhi almost every night, and the key was being able to hold attention so strongly on a sound (I listened to the hissing sound made by some gas logs) that thoughts could not occur. As soon as thoughts stopped, the samadhi would begin, and I would disappear. However, despite my best efforts at staying focused, I never got into states as deep as the ones I experienced ten years earlier. After a while, I began to have doubts about samadhi as the key to enlightenment, and I went to see a Zen Master who was conducting a retreat in a neary city. The ZM told me that samadhi was not necessary for enlightenment, so I quit pursuing that approach and went back to my old informal practice of bringing my attention back to What Is throughout the day. If you are able to fall into samadhi on a regular basis, then you must have a fairly silent mind. How often do you meditate, and how long have you been doing it? Does anything I've written here correlate to your own experiences with this? ZD, For most of my life, I've meditated, though irregulary, and many times I "gave it up forever", only to return again at a later date, then about a year ago a weird thing happened, One night ( I'm a night person ) after meditating for about twenty minutes I was falling asleep, I "felt" what I can only describe as a " poke in the lower back with a stick" it really hurt and woke me instantly, there was no one else in the house only my "better half" and she was gone to bed, also I was sitting on an armchair so it was'nt possable for a person to do it, this happened again on the next three or four meditations, I still can't figure it, but it did teach me to stay alert, and not to fall asleep. Shortly after that, when the cosmic energy was high, I experienced that " " for the first time, I always meditate at night, but I will know during that day if the cosmic energy is high enough to welcome it, and this has happened about ten times during the past year, usually I am content with the natural stillness that comes with the "level" that presents itself, it's not addictive so there's no desire to "go after it", it's enough for me to know and respect it, you have to dance where the music is, and for me, this applies to all aspects of life, I still see myself in baby class, and the advantage of this, is that I can learn and enjoy, for me these are the same. I am blessed with a quiet mind, not achieved, just happened that way. I relate to "turning the head in slow motion" after such a deep state, but from your experiences,I see that I am just beginning, I'm not sure about "numbness", I imagine this can only be felt "before or after" and not "during"... I have always lived close to nature, working some of the most fertile land on earth for over fifty years, often on my own with no person in sight, beautifull mountains on three sides, each about ten miles away, Spirituality without the word... Re unease, I always feel at peace after meditation, its just that at a certain stage during it, the feeling "the shows over" can present itself, its then the unease/boredom sets in, to end it... Cheers |
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Post by zendancer on Nov 9, 2009 23:36:08 GMT -5
Alpha, Yes, the numbness is felt before and after, but not during samadhi. Like you, I don't go after it, but it is always deeply welcome when it appears. Strangely, there are almost no words that can be applied to it. Entry seems to occur when dualistic thinking ceases and this probably explains why no words, which are based upon dualistic distinctions, are applicable. As you say, it is quite clear that "we" have nothing to do with it when it happens.
Your story of being poked is another one of those non-local type of events that remind us of how mysterious the world truly is.
I loved reading about your life; it sounds deeply peaceful. Your environment sounds like the best kind of church one could find on earth. Be thankful that you had a naturally quiet mind; some of us were not so lucky. LOL.
I now understand what you meant by "unease," and that, too has been my experience. There is the recognition that deep peace has ended and it's time to go do something else.
After I read "Zen Training," I began to compare myself to what Sekida was describing as the ideal Zen meditator. I thought, "Holy cow, I'm not even a beginner compared to what he's describing." I couldn't imagine being able to fall into deep samadhi at will. Later, however, I realized that he was writing about people who meditate in monasteries for several hours each day. For the few times that I meditated intensely for several hours at a time for several days in a row I did fall into samadhi regularly, but those have been the exception and not the rule. I lead a very busy life and only recently have I found myself meditating regularly again for the first time in many years. Meditation comes and goes, and, like you, I go with the flow. We're not running this show, so what choice do we have? Cheers.
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Post by zendancer on Nov 10, 2009 0:19:36 GMT -5
Question: Your last post gets at least five stars for the best humor concerning non-dualism that I've read lately. Ironically, I read your first line incorrectly, and thought you said that Tolle regarded hard-core materialism as compatible with non-duality. I was totally astonished, and went downstairs and told my wife what I thought you had written. We concluded that Tolle must have been misunderstood or quoted out of context. Then, when I looked at your post again, I realized that I had read it backwards. Unless there is some other meaning to the term "hardcore materialism" that I don't know about, then I would agree with Tolle. HM is the antithesis of non-dualism. As for UG Krishnamurti, he's a strange bird, and he is probably using the words in a strange way. For example, he spends a lot of time denying the possibility of enlightenment and then says that Ramana Maharshi was the real deal. Go figure. Of all the non-dualism teachers he is by far the most obscure and the most easily mis-interpreted IMO. I think he's saying the same thing as all the others, but he does it with the weirdest use of words I've read anywhere.
As for the enlightenment trip, you don;t really have any choice in what's going to happen even though it may seem like you do. The Infinite will either use your body/mind to recognize itself or it won't. If it does, what do you get? Nothing for you. Yes, you get to see through some common illusions (like thinking you're a thing) but you go back to living an ordinary everyday life afterwards. You won;t worry about dying, and you won't be bothered by some things that bother other people, but other than that it's pretty much like your present-day life. It's a bigger deal for those of us who were cursed with over-active intuitions or intellects that ran amok. The cosmic script calls for some people to be totally consumed by the need to understand reality, or meet God face-to-face, or become unified with the Absolute, etc. and that's just the luck of the draw.
For someone who isn't so madly driven, then the best teacher is probably Byron Katie because she shows how unexamined thoughts create all unhappiness, suffering, and dis-ease. Read her three books and learn how to break the cycle of thoughts that make people miserable. You might wake up as a result of doing her work, but even if you don't, you will still have a happier life than people who believe their thoughts.
Be sure to keep us posted on what you're doing because something is lurking under the surface of the words you write. I can't put my finger on it, but I don;t think you're nearly as blase about spirituality as your words sometimes make it sound. Pascal's wager my ass! At least you know never to say never, and that puts you solidly in Godel's camp. LOL
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Post by loverofall on Nov 10, 2009 8:17:27 GMT -5
I agree Byron Katie came up with the sharpest sword. The other book that I have shared with others that I go back to all the time and is very direct is "Take Me to the Truth, Undoing the Ego" Those people have put together a great manual for enlightenment. They also recommend Byron Katie's "The Work" as the best way to undo thoughts. They tie in the emotional side so well and out of the couple friends that are on this path with me, we all agree, it is the best manual for undoing our false self. If I had to recommend a couple books I to a newbie I would go with Tolle as a great introductory and then the Truth book along with Byron Katie's stuff (watch the videos on the website or youtube, its fascinating to watch her undo people's beliefs).
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