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Post by enigma on Sept 21, 2016 23:25:32 GMT -5
Consciousness is not a big person who initiates a conditioning process for some purpose.  The post is one whole thought connected, as said, to the earlier post. What post? what earlier post? Said when? Connected to what? |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2016 0:28:36 GMT -5
If you think you are doing right, that's what you do! Hitler believed he was doing what was right for his country, probably even the world. People do fork up, I agree, but I see it as collective and individual fork up lol. Although we have the ability to choose, we are also driven by very powerful forces that govern our choices... in terms of conditioned beliefs, bio-chemistry and dna. I believe that volition is a very practical solution though, and responsibility and accountability is important. The old saying....'don't judge until you have walked a mile in their shoes' is still a good one imo But the point is we are not our conditioning. Our conditioning presents a false sense of self. So a whole long chain of nasty conditioning made Hitler. But the fact Hitler thought he was doing right does not negate any responsibility for killing millions of people. The fact Hitler believed he was doing right just means he was conditioned miserably. Until Trump has come to power like he has, I couldn't understand how the German people put Hitler into power. Now I understand perfectly how it happened. Now I can't believe America is in the position of having to choose between Hillary and Trump, it's quite bizarre, but it is what it is. But the American people have made this choice. Hitler hasn't come to power by election, he came to power through back door. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2016 0:30:39 GMT -5
So Mother Nature does not arise from the same Source/Ground of being, but rather is a Source/God unto itself? From Kabbalah. Originally, God existed as All, the unmanifest. In order for the world to manifest, God had to ~make a place~ where God was not. So, God withdrew his presence from a certain ~space~, and in that space, created the physical universe. So, there is the unmanifest, and the manifest. The manifest world is the world of duality. There is much more to the story, but that's basically it. This place of withdrawal is written about as a single point (by the Ari, Isaac Luria, a couple hundred years ago), so it matches perfectly with the Big Bang. .....Some Kabbalists say the world is created. Some Kabbalists are non-dualists and say the universe is a manifestation of God (in the sense of a step-down transformer, a series of stepping down, in a kind of sense diluting God). But no, creation is not another power/thing apart from God, not a Source/God unto itself. Did your grandfather narrated this story? Or how come you know this? |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2016 0:41:39 GMT -5
Technical questions like, 'If you're just an appearance, then why not give me your wallet and walk off a cliff.' hehe  |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2016 0:43:45 GMT -5
He is punching holes in your conceptual Consciousness self-identity and all you can say is "Please"....  I do understand why you don't want to answer the question. Pu-leeeeese.  I like the word Pu-leeeeeee  |
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Post by tenka on Sept 22, 2016 1:43:42 GMT -5
That's just nonsense. Sure, Hitler thought he was doing right, but what does that have to do with anything? All this is why non-volition is nonsense. A human being is a point of decision, a maker of decisions, that's what a human being is. We are here to learn to make good decisions, and for that accountability is necessary, for that karma is necessary. Life is a school. The idea of non-volition removes accountability. The earth is in pretty bad shape right now, ecologically and psychologically. But it's not because it's inevitable because of the natural flow of All That Is. It's because people fork up. Charlie and Hitler get healed by changing, by ceasing to be what they are. But yes, we all have to clean up our own stuff. But this is not easy. It is very easy to go with the flow. It's not so easy to go against the flow of the nasty stuff in ourselves and the nasty stuff in the world. To say it's all just a flow is to escape our responsibility, but yes, "We are the World", but that doesn't remove our accountability. If you think you are doing right, that's what you do! Hitler believed he was doing what was right for his country, probably even the world. People do fork up, I agree, but I see it as collective and individual fork up lol. Although we have the ability to choose, we are also driven by very powerful forces that govern our choices... in terms of conditioned beliefs, bio-chemistry and dna. I believe that volition is a very practical solution though, and responsibility and accountability is important. The old saying....'don't judge until you have walked a mile in their shoes' is still a good one imo Yes, this can be the case . It also refers to contractual agreements made prior to incarnation . What I have heard (if genuine) hitler from spirit side of life saying exactly that . He understood his role . He accepted it . It was never going to be any different than it was . Some peeps come into this world experience to give you hell, some peeps that do that on a more personal level can be part of your 'soul group' and such peeps love you dearly .  .. It can be difficult for some to digest that such a love can be part of one's suffering .. I don't know the stats butt I would say the majority don't get to become fully aware of their contracts while living them out on the earth plane otherwise it's possible that changes could/would be made . There really does need on a deep level of knowing the understanding of why one behaves how they do and this is the fascination of self/mind that I am drawn to . There is a reason for everything after all .. |
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Post by andrew on Sept 22, 2016 4:01:41 GMT -5
My dream world is very similar to my waking world, so in my dream world, a human I speak to has all human qualities. Unless they become a unicorn in which case they then have unicorn qualities. You said "Asking someone about their nightly dream assumes they have an individual mind." I'm saying no, it doesn't, and I explained why. It does assume that and you didn't explain why. It's like asking someone what they had for dinner...you're assuming that there is a someone that had dinner. It's not complicated. Really, it's not. |
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Post by andrew on Sept 22, 2016 4:02:39 GMT -5
And there's the point in the first sentence, you have no problem with talking in a physical context. When NOT talking in a physical context, i.e a rock is an appearance, does your rock appearances have properties? Is it made of something? It appears to, yes. That's what I would say too. So the appearance of Andrew also has the appearance of an as.s even though you can't see it hehe |
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Post by andrew on Sept 22, 2016 4:04:24 GMT -5
What on earth are you talking about? Try and address what I said please, what you said here was extremely unrelated...did you reply to the wrong message? What I am saying is that every model has boundaries when it comes to explaining different stuff adequately, so when talking about suffering we have to step into the physical context. Problem with that? Okay, lemme try again. Gopal has not been laying out a complete model of how the universe works and how to deal with suffering, at least not here. He's saying everything is an appearance in Consciousness. That's all. No high falutin all embracing model. With me so far? When you call that the Gopal model, you implicitly expect that model to address all pertinent issues, including the issue of suffering. You then ask why his 'model' doesn't address the issue of suffering, and call it inadequate. Still with me? I'm saying the problem isn't that Gopal's 'model' is inadequate, it's that you've chosen to call a simple pointer a model. This is a good explanation but a) gopal never uses pointers, and b) I have been getting the impression that his model is all embracing. If I ask him what model he is using when we talk about suffering, you think he will tell me? |
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Post by andrew on Sept 22, 2016 4:05:19 GMT -5
No, a loaded question assumes guilt within the question. I'm asking you if it's true. Loaded question is one that contains assumption or is charged with an implication. I guess it was more of a leading question, though it did seem to assume I missed the point. The other thing is, if missing your point implies 'just like Andy', what does it mean in this social clime to be associated as 'like Andy'? I'm sure it means something wonderful hehe |
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Post by andrew on Sept 22, 2016 4:09:31 GMT -5
See?, everybody? Gopal has only one context. He seems to be saying that the larger context Donald Trumps the smaller one. Would you say that's what he's trying to say? Aren't you taking advantage of his inability to articulate it precisely? I read it a couple of times, at the time. I didn't quite agree with sdp that he was only saying there is one context, but I can definitely see where sdp got that. What I am hearing gopal say there is that one context can be known for certain, whereas the other context is speculation, which means that only one context is true and worth paying attention to. I see this as problematic for a few reasons, but not least because it doesn't leave room for neither context to be true (this is all ideas we are discussing after all). |
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Post by andrew on Sept 22, 2016 4:12:09 GMT -5
'Real' can merely mean there is a correspondence between an outer occurrence/event and an inner experience/sensations. Imaginary/illusory would mean there-is-no outward evidence for an inner experience. So if one experiences the evidence of an oasis in the distance, it can't ever actually be a mirage? If one experiences the evidence of a snake in the road, it can never actually be a rope, and therefore imaginary/illusory? The problem here is that in the Consciousness-appearance model, what you see is the snake. How can that perception (or any perception) ever be wrong? In order for the snake to actually be a rope, surely we have to jump back into the physical context and start analyzing properties of the snake/rope. |
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Post by andrew on Sept 22, 2016 4:15:57 GMT -5
If you think you are doing right, that's what you do! Hitler believed he was doing what was right for his country, probably even the world. People do fork up, I agree, but I see it as collective and individual fork up lol. Although we have the ability to choose, we are also driven by very powerful forces that govern our choices... in terms of conditioned beliefs, bio-chemistry and dna. I believe that volition is a very practical solution though, and responsibility and accountability is important. The old saying....'don't judge until you have walked a mile in their shoes' is still a good one imo Yes, this can be the case . It also refers to contractual agreements made prior to incarnation . What I have heard (if genuine) hitler from spirit side of life saying exactly that . He understood his role . He accepted it . It was never going to be any different than it was . Some peeps come into this world experience to give you hell, some peeps that do that on a more personal level can be part of your 'soul group' and such peeps love you dearly . .. It can be difficult for some to digest that such a love can be part of one's suffering .. I don't know the stats butt I would say the majority don't get to become fully aware of their contracts while living them out on the earth plane otherwise it's possible that changes could/would be made . There really does need on a deep level of knowing the understanding of why one behaves how they do and this is the fascination of self/mind that I am drawn to . There is a reason for everything after all .. yep I agree. And even if these sort of spiritual stories about soul groups and contracts are just a myth....they still enable us to see and experience Hitler types from a place of love and unity. |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Sept 22, 2016 7:49:17 GMT -5
But if Consciousness-only-exists, please give me (or speculate) why Consciousness is doing all this? If it is Consciousness-only, it's a Twilight Zone episode. I can't see any reason for Consciousness to ~make~ such a world as we live in. The question is misconceived. How can it be misconceived? ...that's what you say is happening. |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Sept 22, 2016 7:52:40 GMT -5
The post is one whole thought connected, as said, to the earlier post. What post? what earlier post? Said when? Connected to what? The post you responded to (which was erased, because only two posts are advanced). |
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