|
|
Post by stardustpilgrim on May 16, 2015 10:50:54 GMT -5
Indeed, because you won't want it to end which alas it must. Then you suffer. Nonsense. I had an uncle who was five years younger than my mother. He weighed close to 350, he died about two years ago. He loved to eat. He battled between eating (not just eating, one can eat tons of healthy food, but food that tasted good, to him) and eating properly which really meant to him, not eating. He ended the battle by giving in to eating even though he knew it was going to eventually kill him, which it did. So, he essentially ended the suffering (the battle) by giving up the struggle. .....So don't say nonsense. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 16, 2015 10:53:53 GMT -5
Exactly, I think gopal is connecting some dots that shouldn't be connected. He needs for there to be a personal God to help him explain some things, and so he must bow to that God he creates. Unless you can't understand the outer world stability and until you believe you would be waking up tomorrow morning in Mars, you can't understand what I mean here. So Keep enjoying with your great illusion, people like zendancer would accompany to enjoy this illusion. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 16, 2015 10:54:42 GMT -5
I agree with the underlined (but ego is also in the emotions, particularly negative emotions, and the learned bodily movements). Emotions are formed by thoughts. No, other way around is also true. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 16, 2015 10:55:58 GMT -5
Emotions are formed by thoughts. No, other way around is also true. Impossible. Emotions are thoughts. |
|
|
|
Post by zin on May 16, 2015 11:01:44 GMT -5
He needs for there to be a personal God to help him explain some things, and so he must bow to that God he creates. Unless you can't understand the outer world stability and until you believe you would be waking up tomorrow morning in Mars, you can't understand what I mean here. So Keep enjoying with your great illusion, people like zendancer would accompany to enjoy this illusion. I feel like it is my relative  . |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 16, 2015 11:02:40 GMT -5
Correct, but it can't reached by any means. Not a useful comment, nor is it indicative of anything useful. Okay, Whatever you say. |
|
|
|
Post by stardustpilgrim on May 16, 2015 11:04:29 GMT -5
Thanks for adding this Z.D. I understand that there are different types of sufferings or should I say that there are sufferings created through actions done and there are sufferings created in order to instigate change . I would say that transcending deep rooted issues / sufferings without working through them are sufferings that are in their own nature experienced in order to bring about ascension / awakening or realization .If one transcends sufferings had that have resulted from abusing others for example then one will have no understanding of such actions in relation to those others that were abused .If you had abused others in the past and then become free of suffering why would you cease to have an understanding of such actions. Are you saying that we are condemned to suffer so that we may continue to have an appreciation of it. OK, this is getting complicated. If, for example, one has abused others in the past, I'd say it's impossible to "ascend/awaken" without having ended the 'mechanism' which led to the abuse of others. If you mean something other than this by the sentence underlined, I suggest you are incorrect (that sentence is not clear, in fact, it's confusing). IOW, I'd say you can't transcend the sufferings which resulted from abusing others without understanding you abused others (reply top the bold underlined). I agree with sca that something is not right here. Please clarify (if you haven't already). |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 16, 2015 11:14:08 GMT -5
So, either you still suffer, or you avoid sundaes. The desire to eat sundae will be felt as joy. When the sundae is being eaten, there may arise the thought, this is not as good as the last sundae I had. This is suffering. When the sundae is finished, there is regret that the joyful experience is over. This is suffering. Some time later there will be the desire to eat a better sundae than the last one. This is suffering. This is the endless cycle of desire, fulfillment of desire and the planting of a seed for a subsequent desire. This suffering can only be eliminated with the knowledge that you are not the mind/body. Yes, the unconscious conditioned patterns of the mind/body will continue to play themselves out, but there is no ego identity associated with the thoughts, feelings and circumstances which arise. It is freedom from the mind/body. |
|
|
|
Post by stardustpilgrim on May 16, 2015 11:18:37 GMT -5
If you had abused others in the past and then become free of suffering why would you cease to have an understanding of such actions. Are you saying that we are condemned to suffer so that we may continue to have an appreciation of it. On some level we have to relate our sufferings had with something . The cause of sufferings on some level is attained otherwise one could potentially carry on regardless and continue to abuse others . To cause others suffering one moment and entertain bliss the next moment won't happen until the sufferings caused are self digested and worked through . Tis a simple process I would say . Z.D. mentioned 80% of Tolles past sufferings disappeared and I would suggest that in order for something to disappear that something has no longer any baring or influence . For something to no longer have any influence / reason for being then that something has been already worked through on some level . For Tolle's deep rooted suffering to be transcended without being worked through I can only imagine that these deep rooted issues were present to act as a catalyst for realization and not endured for any other reason otherwise he would of endured a process of self forgiveness / healing and such likes . Stuff doesn't have to be worked through. The mechanism which causes the stuff has to end. This can happen by being "worked through". It can happen by merely "letting go", but I'd say it's not usually that easy. The stuff, is tied to ego/self, a perpetuating feedback loop. For Tolle, that feedback loop ended suddenly. |
|
|
|
Post by stardustpilgrim on May 16, 2015 11:39:00 GMT -5
I agree with the underlined (but ego is also in the emotions, particularly negative emotions, and the learned bodily movements). Emotions are formed by thoughts. We have gone through this before. Emotions and thoughts are two entirely different functions. Have you ever had a pet? I'm going to assume no, or else you would know pets have emotions. Mammals have a mammalian brain (that's where the name comes from). This brain is responsible for emotions. Pets don't abstract, which is what thinking is, thoughts. Therefore, emotions are not formed by thoughts. Emotions precede thoughts. (But there is a feedback loop where thoughts feed emotions and emotions feed thoughts). Additionally (for free), in evolution reptiles came first (coldblooded). We have a reptilian brain which consists of the brain stem and the spinal column. It's responsible for physically taking care of the organism, basically, walking from here to there to get food to eat. Mammals came next (warm-blooded) The mammalian brain covers the brain stem. The neo-cortex, which we use to abstract, covers the mammalian brain. Now, if you can find a cat or a dog or a dolphin or a whale which can abstract, I'll reconsider your post. Until then get yourself a cat or a dog.  |
|
|
|
Post by stardustpilgrim on May 16, 2015 11:44:53 GMT -5
So, either you still suffer, or you avoid sundaes. The desire to eat sundae will be felt as joy. When the sundae is being eaten, there may arise the thought, this is not as good as the last sundae I had. This is suffering. When the sundae is finished, there is regret that the joyful experience is over. This is suffering. Some time later there will be the desire to eat a better sundae than the last one. This is suffering. This is the endless cycle of desire, fulfillment of desire and the planting of a seed for a subsequent desire. This suffering can only be eliminated with the knowledge that you are not the mind/body. sca, cool, this is essentially my Lollipop thread, derived from Peter Ralston (a book by him). I don't recall if you were here then. I'll bump it. |
|
|
|
Post by zendancer on May 16, 2015 11:59:31 GMT -5
Yes, that's probably a betterer way to put it. You are doing your Job perfectly, he he So are you. Ha ha. |
|
|
|
Post by zendancer on May 16, 2015 12:03:07 GMT -5
ATA-T is simply looking or listening with a still mind. It often leads to clarity because it involves becoming present and leaving a lot of thoughts behind. Who is initiating this ATA-T? That which can't be imagined. |
|
|
|
Post by stardustpilgrim on May 16, 2015 12:04:06 GMT -5
Exactly, I think gopal is connecting some dots that shouldn't be connected. No, I am not connecting any dots, I am directly seeing what's happening without trying to fit any of my idea. Enigma needs to find a way for individual madness, so he is left with no way other than believing 'God has fallen into the dream'. Actually, your view (essentially) is what's called the Block universe. Many people have this view, I'm pretty sure it was Einstein's view. Past, present and future already exists (as a block). Time is our seeming movement through the block. So gopal is not alone, it makes more sense to me than God falling into the dream. |
|
|
|
Post by andrew on May 16, 2015 12:05:28 GMT -5
Yes. I'm sure gopal wasn't saying that discomfort is not to be noticed and acted upon (he laughed at the scratching an itch example), but I didn't quite get to the bottom of what he considers to be a 'problem' and why. It occurs to me right now, gopal, that I can perhaps see why you would consider pausing and allowing sadness to move through the body to be a 'mind game' based on your understandings, but perhaps 'mind games' of these sorts aren't the 'problem'. Perhaps these sorts of mind games are part of the natural functioning of the organism. The state which you would like to avoid is the problem, But if you suffer and if you strongly feel like avoiding that's what happening, you have nothing to do with that, If you know 'nothing can be done'(not conceptually), then those avoiding situation wouldn't even arise. Avoidance is part of my experience to the extent that if there is a discomfort, then the body addresses it in some way. I don't set out to, or have a mission to, avoid any state, or feeling, or emotion, or sensation, but I do act on certain states/feelings/emotions/sensations as they happen. I'm pretty sure your body does the same thing, though it might address the feelings or sensations in different ways to mine. We tend to all be a bit different in that regard, though there are common themes. |
|
.
