Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 16, 2015 10:34:49 GMT -5
No, irritation this is the label to suffering, this doesn't arises if you know you can't do anything, but unhappiness happens for sure. Why does unhappiness arise if you know you can't do anything about it? (BTW, you can do something about both irritation and unhappiness.) Happiness and unhappiness are the part of our life, I remember you have said this. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 16, 2015 10:36:23 GMT -5
No, it's being created by consciousness out of wrong belief that you could resolve the problem, so resolver would come into being. But the real problem is this resolver. So, have you convinced yourself that, if you have an itch, there's nothing you can do about it? No, you could scratch, not a problem, If scratch push you to escape from that, then you are in trouble. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 16, 2015 10:37:12 GMT -5
Your natural state is Peace. Happiness comes and goes like everything in the phenomenological universe. Yes, that's probably a betterer way to put it. You are doing your Job perfectly, he he  |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 16, 2015 10:38:08 GMT -5
All these action which you are doing is the real problem. Those are all mind creations. I would differentiate every other feeling from suffering, suffering is the one which you would like to avoid or which you would like to come out, rest of the feelings are just feelings. Suffering isn't a feeling in it's own right. Any negative feeling that gets sufficiently intense will result in suffering. Absolutely said, 100% agreed. |
|
|
|
Post by stardustpilgrim on May 16, 2015 10:39:04 GMT -5
In what way does focusing on the present moment resemble changing channels to you,lols? I found it surprising that Tolle would suggest escaping suffering by attending the now . My understanding is that sufferings is 'now' just as much as joy or anything else is . By switching channels or by focusing on something else other than one's sufferings one is not addressing why one is suffering . It would be similar to the drug addict swapping their addiction from drugs to drink whilst paying no attention to the sufferings of their addiction .. Some weeks ago someone here expressed a different understanding concerning what 'now' is. I have always connected Tolle's meaning of now to be directly connected with 'clock now'. For me, now is now, now means this present moment. There is clock time and psychological time, and the two do not always correspond. But it has been my experience that, precisely, now, suffering ends. Suffering is like (or is) a feedback loop between self and exterior phenomenon or interior thoughts or feelings. Living in the present moment necessarily stops the feedback loop and therefore stops suffering (suffering versus pain). I have already shared with you I discovered this in 1975-1976 when my suffering was so bad I seriously considered suicide. I discovered I could end thoughts and therefore could end suffering, momentarily, by attending movements and sensations (then, I just called it watching my legs, particularly). Now, Tolle, luckily (or not, as the case may be), ended the whole feedback mechanism and permanently ended suffering. "I", happened, to take the longer path. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 16, 2015 10:41:40 GMT -5
So experiencing this would be suffering?  Indeed, because you won't want it to end which alas it must. Then you suffer. Nonsense. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 16, 2015 10:43:36 GMT -5
IOW, it's important to you that you can pretend. Why? I realized that every time action is undertaken, every time a choice is made, there is the underlying unspoken perception that we are free to make that choice or act in that way. So I realized that at a bare minimum, the illusion of free will is present in our experience, that we are not just programmed machines, and that the body operates under the assumption of being free (unless limitation is consciously perceived). At which point it seemed more of a pretence to DENY free will, even though I could clearly see the truth of 'no free will'. So there's no pretence, it's more of an acceptance to what is natural. No, you haven't seen, you are just imagining, If Enigma starts to talk like you are having freewill, I am pretty sure you would change your notion. |
|
|
|
Post by stardustpilgrim on May 16, 2015 10:43:51 GMT -5
That makes sense to me .. although when andy spoke of Tolles deep sufferings endured without working through the causes of such didn't make sense . Tolle suffered for years, but when he was on the verge of suicide, he had a strange thought, which triggered a big enlightenment experience. After that happened, he spent a long time in a state of bliss. His past suffering disappeared (along with 80% of his past thoughts), and he later wrote several books about the path of non-duality. As far as I know, he has never advocated escaping from suffering. His primary teaching is to become present and thereby become free from the kinds of thoughts that cause suffering. Yes, escaping the suffering doesn't end the suffering, it just covers it up, pushes it under the rung where it will emerge again. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 16, 2015 10:46:24 GMT -5
Yes, that's probably a betterer way to put it. You are doing your Job perfectly, he he Peace is just another word. There is nothing to suggest that peace cannot come and go whereas happiness does. I feel peaceful today, which means I won't tomorrow. This is a peaceful place, which means another place isn't. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 16, 2015 10:46:29 GMT -5
Yes, there's nothing wrong with seeking a better experience. If you're sitting on a tack, you'd be a fool to not get up and sit somewhere else. The notion that the discomfort is not to be noticed or acted upon sounds like a misguided attempt to devise a plan to avoid suffering. Yes. I'm sure gopal wasn't saying that discomfort is not to be noticed and acted upon (he laughed at the scratching an itch example), but I didn't quite get to the bottom of what he considers to be a 'problem' and why. It occurs to me right now, gopal, that I can perhaps see why you would consider pausing and allowing sadness to move through the body to be a 'mind game' based on your understandings, but perhaps 'mind games' of these sorts aren't the 'problem'. Perhaps these sorts of mind games are part of the natural functioning of the organism. The state which you would like to avoid is the problem, But if you suffer and if you strongly feel like avoiding that's what happening, you have nothing to do with that, If you know 'nothing can be done'(not conceptually), then those avoiding situation wouldn't even arise. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 16, 2015 10:47:11 GMT -5
Yes. I'm sure gopal wasn't saying that discomfort is not to be noticed and acted upon (he laughed at the scratching an itch example), but I didn't quite get to the bottom of what he considers to be a 'problem' and why. It occurs to me right now, gopal, that I can perhaps see why you would consider pausing and allowing sadness to move through the body to be a 'mind game' based on your understandings, but perhaps 'mind games' of these sorts aren't the 'problem'. Perhaps these sorts of mind games are part of the natural functioning of the organism. Sometimes in these discussions it's easy to lose sight of the fact that when you have an itch, you just scratch it. You don't go wandering off into the forest to contemplate the existential meaning of how to react to the itch. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 16, 2015 10:48:31 GMT -5
Like Enigma, you are assuming that your personal limitations apply to others, and they don't.. it sounds like you're still pining over unfulfilled expectations.. Clarity is the ultimate fulfillment. Correct, but it can't reached by any means. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 16, 2015 10:50:03 GMT -5
That makes sense to me .. although when andy spoke of Tolles deep sufferings endured without working through the causes of such didn't make sense . Tolle suffered for years, but when he was on the verge of suicide, he had a strange thought, which triggered a big enlightenment experience. After that happened, he spent a long time in a state of bliss. His past suffering disappeared (along with 80% of his past thoughts), and he later wrote several books about the path of non-duality. As far as I know, he has never advocated escaping from suffering. His primary teaching is to become present and thereby become free from the kinds of thoughts that cause suffering. Focusing on the now to avoid suffering is surely escape plan. He is suggesting that when you are in the now, there is no suffering, haven't you read? |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 16, 2015 10:50:43 GMT -5
Clarity is the ultimate fulfillment. Correct, but it can't reached by any means. Not a useful comment, nor is it indicative of anything useful. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 16, 2015 10:50:47 GMT -5
Do you equate ATA-T with clarity? ATA-T is simply looking or listening with a still mind. It often leads to clarity because it involves becoming present and leaving a lot of thoughts behind. Who is initiating this ATA-T? |
|
