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Post by andrew on May 15, 2015 6:02:04 GMT -5
In contrast to the animal kingdom, the human organism has an advanced ability to rationally think. This has enabled us to create beautiful works of art and music, and create devastating weapons of war that are then used. It is ideas that principally change the way the body reacts and responds, that change our inner and external experience, and change the world. If the 'wave and ocean' idea is a useful one, then great. If the idea of 'non-doing of being' is a useful one, then great. I think you missed the point of the analogy. I don't think I did, I just couldn't respond adequately in terms of the analogy - I can't talk about waves harming each other or creating stuff, and that's the key point for me. Whether it's non-duality, self-help, therapy, or any philosophy....as far as I'm concerned, they are only useful to the degree that they enable individuals to get better results in terms of body functioning, experience and behaviour. |
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2015 6:04:58 GMT -5
I think you missed the point of the analogy. I don't think I did, I just couldn't respond adequately in terms of the analogy - I can't talk about waves harming each other or creating stuff, and that's the key point for me. Whether it's non-duality, self-help, therapy, or any philosophy....as far as I'm concerned, they are only useful to the degree that they enable individuals to get better results in terms of body functioning, experience and behaviour. Waves are dependent on the ocean. No ocean, no waves, so it struck me as funny that you would consider being to be "useful" when it is the totality of what you are in all its expressions. |
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Post by andrew on May 15, 2015 6:08:42 GMT -5
I don't think I did, I just couldn't respond adequately in terms of the analogy - I can't talk about waves harming each other or creating stuff, and that's the key point for me. Whether it's non-duality, self-help, therapy, or any philosophy....as far as I'm concerned, they are only useful to the degree that they enable individuals to get better results in terms of body functioning, experience and behaviour. Waves are dependent on the ocean. No ocean, no waves, so it struck me as funny that you would consider being to be "useful" when it is the totality of what you are in all its expressions. That's an idea. I have no problem with that idea if it has merit (and I would say it does). I'm extremely practical. If someone says they love their wife and then beat her every week, then their concept of 'love' is without merit. If the idea of 'the totality of what you are in all its expressions' has merit, then that's good with me. |
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2015 6:28:24 GMT -5
Okay you watch as sca states and let me know whether you could come out of that. There is nothing to come in or go out of because everything is just consciousness. I am talking about experience of certain feelings(suffering). |
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2015 6:43:27 GMT -5
There is nothing to come in or go out of because everything is just consciousness. I am talking about experience of certain feelings(suffering). Feelings and thoughts are the same thing. Suffering is felt when you experience something other than yourself. Attachment to and identification with objects is to experience something other than yourself. |
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2015 6:49:55 GMT -5
Okay you watch as sca states and let me know whether you could come out of that. I'm not saying that this body would watch necessarily, but it does make sense to me, and it might be something this body would do from time to time. Sometimes 'detachment' in this way is useful. Most of the time, when there is sadness, I allow myself to feel it fully, I allow it to move through the body. If there is irritation, there are different things I might do, some might be internal, some might be external. What do you mean 'come out of that'? 'Come out of that' to where? Willing to eradicate the suffering from your life is the problem. When you are the primary creator why would you allow to remove something? |
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Post by zendancer on May 15, 2015 7:13:41 GMT -5
Gopal says that if one decides to meditate that state CAN be broken. He is correct, but he doesn't seem to understand that the state MAY NOT get broken. If everything is a movement in consciousness (his view), and everything is predetermined, then it is impossible to say with certainty what will happen next. The one who meditates may continue to meditate or not, and may have realizations or not, and may have CC experiences or not, and may discover what's going on or not. I am not talking about meditation, I am talking about ATA-T. Same same. Shifting attention away from thoughts to breath awareness or shifting attention to what can be seen or heard is the same activity. |
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Post by zendancer on May 15, 2015 7:15:08 GMT -5
When I say meditation, it's about sitting in a particular place and closing the eyes and concentrating the present movement, but when I say attending the actual, it's nothing living a normal life but concentrating on what's happening in the present movement(outer world). Meditation to me means transcending thought. What do you achieve by concentrating on external phenomena. (Outer world) Exactly the same thing, but it has several advantages over sitting meditation. |
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Post by zendancer on May 15, 2015 7:17:36 GMT -5
Have you read the book named 'power of now' by Tolle? he says that we could escape the suffering by concentrating on the present movement, But what I realized was, that's also another mind fantasy because it's exactly know where to end. So instead you are concentrating on the mind fantasy of outer world. Yes I have read Tolle's book. Ironically, the goaless goal is to excape the domination of thought, so it doesn't matter whether one does breath awareness meditation or looks and listens. The same thing occurs. |
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2015 7:21:21 GMT -5
So instead you are concentrating on the mind fantasy of outer world. Yes I have read Tolle's book. Ironically, the goaless goal is to excape the domination of thought, so it doesn't matter whether one does breath awareness meditation or looks and listens. The same thing occurs. I was addressing gopal's view that both inner and outer attention is fantasy. |
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Post by zendancer on May 15, 2015 7:22:02 GMT -5
Happiness and unhappiness is inevitable part of our life. NO Definitely NO! |
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Post by zendancer on May 15, 2015 7:26:54 GMT -5
Yes, even knowing the Self leaves remnants of ego in a living body. But it is as a drop in the ocean of being which is beyond any differentiation. Okay, in this case, it sounds like there isn't really an actual 'egoless state'. This idea might have value as a kind of pointer or teaching tool, but in reality, ego still happens to some extent, and the body registers these traces of ego in different ways. Correct, but not in the previous sense. There is a body with a name, but the name no longer refers to an entity inside the body. |
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Post by andrew on May 15, 2015 7:34:27 GMT -5
Okay, in this case, it sounds like there isn't really an actual 'egoless state'. This idea might have value as a kind of pointer or teaching tool, but in reality, ego still happens to some extent, and the body registers these traces of ego in different ways. Correct, but not in the previous sense. There is a body with a name, but the name no longer refers to an entity inside the body. yep I understand. 'Nobody home'. |
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Post by andrew on May 15, 2015 7:38:21 GMT -5
I'm not saying that this body would watch necessarily, but it does make sense to me, and it might be something this body would do from time to time. Sometimes 'detachment' in this way is useful. Most of the time, when there is sadness, I allow myself to feel it fully, I allow it to move through the body. If there is irritation, there are different things I might do, some might be internal, some might be external. What do you mean 'come out of that'? 'Come out of that' to where? Willing to eradicate the suffering from your life is the problem. When you are the primary creator why would you allow to remove something? I can see why the goal to eradicate suffering from one's life altogether might be a problem, but I don't see a problem with healthily acting upon an uncomfortable sensation, pressure, feeling/emotion on a moment by moment basis. |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on May 15, 2015 8:03:33 GMT -5
The old definition of meditation (especially in the western world) is to ponder-think on a certain subject (usually spiritual of some sort). But we generally these days equate meditation (for example mindfulness meditation), present moment awareness and ATA-T and still mind. That's the sense I was using the word. I meant to say I was not sitting,closing eyes and then concentrating on the empty screen of eye-lid. I said I was attending the actual, have you ever read the book named 'Power of now' by Tolle? Yes, I read it when it first came out. I thought it pretty good. |
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