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Post by Deleted on Mar 3, 2015 12:21:05 GMT -5
While it is not a physical action, there is surely something to do. Volition does not exist within the physical realm; we can't choose to go here or there and do this or that. There is a more fundamental level of choice, and that is where we place our awareness. Just as one may shift awareness to different individual conversations in the din of a room without physically moving, so can we shift awareness to seemingly different thoughts and/or sensations. Subsequent level of (Self)awareness determines the unfolding of physicality (action). So, the thing to do in regards to practice (this is all there is to do. Over and over and over...) is to shift the awareness onto that which is shifting the awareness. The result is awareness of Self/Reality. Abidance in/as such is realization. Hey roy ........ I appreciate your view. By "Subsequent level of (Self)awareness determines the unfolding of physicality (action)." would for me, mean "Your being attracts your life". IOW, IMV (in my view) one still cannot directly do, in the physical realm, as you describe (maybe for a very long time, but not ultimately), but practice brings the unfolding of events in a different 'way'. Practice also brings a different order of value to one's life. What once was interesting is no longer found to be interesting. Life operates according to what we value. If you value things differently, this changes the influences you live under and this in turn changes the circumstances of one's life. And I would say, these influences do "not exist within the physical realm". So we could also say that interior practice is what allows us to live under a different level of influences. So, I am more in agreement with you than with ZD. ZD's view leaves no 'lever', no 'fulcrum', no "hope". The non-existence of a self, the existence of an illusory self (which seems also to be the non-existence of an illusory self), leaves no-point of possible 'realization', hopelessness. OK.....O....K......Just saying, your view will not get much support here, but I haven't let that discourage me........and you (well....mostly your view) will receive subtle abuse....too.....(but not from ZD)..... and, likewise, satchitananda (while I'm here)............ This is a "Die Hard" non-dual forum....pretty-much.....  I know exactly what you mean. Buddhism (I called myself a Buddhist for 10 years) was a really close fit for me but always left me empty, lacking, looking for... ? something. Then I came across the teachings of Ramana Maharshi and everything quickly fell perfectly into place. Search complete.  |
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Post by zendancer on Mar 3, 2015 12:36:08 GMT -5
While it is not a physical action, there is surely something to do. Volition does not exist within the physical realm; we can't choose to go here or there and do this or that. There is a more fundamental level of choice, and that is where we place our awareness. Just as one may shift awareness to different individual conversations in the din of a room without physically moving, so can we shift awareness to seemingly different thoughts and/or sensations. Subsequent level of (Self)awareness determines the unfolding of physicality (action). So, the thing to do in regards to practice (this is all there is to do. Over and over and over...) is to shift the awareness onto that which is shifting the awareness. The result is awareness of Self/Reality. Abidance in/as such is realization. Hey roy ........ I appreciate your view. By "Subsequent level of (Self)awareness determines the unfolding of physicality (action)." would for me, mean "Your being attracts your life". IOW, IMV (in my view) one still cannot directly do, in the physical realm, as you describe (maybe for a very long time, but not ultimately), but practice brings the unfolding of events in a different 'way'. Practice also brings a different order of value to one's life. What once was interesting is no longer found to be interesting. Life operates according to what we value. If you value things differently, this changes the influences you live under and this in turn changes the circumstances of one's life. And I would say, these influences do "not exist within the physical realm". So we could also say that interior practice is what allows us to live under a different level of influences. So, I am more in agreement with you than with ZD. ZD's view leaves no 'lever', no 'fulcrum', no "hope". The non-existence of a self, the existence of an illusory self (which seems also to be the non-existence of an illusory self), leaves no-point of possible 'realization', hopelessness. OK.....O....K...... Just saying, your view will not get much support here, but I haven't let that discourage me........and you (well....mostly your view) will receive subtle abuse....too.....(but not from ZD)..... and, likewise, satchitananda (while I'm here)............ This is a "Die Hard" non-dual forum....pretty-much..... SDP: Why do you assume "no hope?" I'm constantly telling peeps to shift attention away from thoughts to what can be seen, heard, felt, etc. From my POV that is the most efficacious thing I can do, and I do it with a vengeance. Of course, also from my POV, this body/mind has no choice in the matter, and it doesn't care! ha ha! I love telling peeps to shift attention away from thoughts because internal silence appears to foster realizations. I won't say that the effects of shifting attention are causal; I would rather say that the shifting and subsequent realizations are correlated. Things play out exactly as they do, but I certainly wouldn't say that there is no hope. People discover what Jesus called their "True Self" (and what Ramana called "The Self") right on schedule, just like fruit ripening on a tree. If you weren't interested in non-duality and realization, you wouldn't be on this forum. As I've pointed out before, I consider intense attentiveness, deep sincerity, and overwhelming curiosity to be highly predictive of realizations, and that's why I recommend attentiveness and inquiry. Those are the two things that appear to involve volition, but they don't. They are just an imaginary means to an imaginary end. After Self-realization, it is realized that the One who was attending and inquiring wasn't a person. Ha ha. What a joke! This is why I often say that SOI has a fantastic sense of humor. Anyone who really gets this will understand why Tolle giggles all the time. It is almost too funny for words. |
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Post by laughter on Mar 3, 2015 14:04:50 GMT -5
And yet people sit zazen and engage in koan. Odd behavior indeed. It's not at all odd unless it's imagined to be. This is what the cosmos does, and this is what the cosmos is. Some people climb mountains and run businesses; other people sit zazen. It is a perfect unfolding of isness, but don't get attached to these words. Ha ha. They're only pointers. People sit zazen until they no longer sit zazen. Some people continue to sit zazen even after Self-realization. This is also isness in action. Each human being is unique, but what animates human beings and looks out of all eyes is the Self, which is infinite. Simple like that.  |
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Post by laughter on Mar 3, 2015 14:08:17 GMT -5
I'm not conflicted by any idea because I know what I am. There is nothing that needs to be practiced because I already am what I am. Practice cannot get people any closer to THAT than they already are. This body practiced for many years until the illusion of selfhood collapsed. Afterwards, there was only freedom. The search ended when the imagined searcher was seen to have been an illusion. It is of vital importance to make a distinction here. This thread is referring to the practice (the 'thing to do') that assists in pulling consciousness out from the delusion of maya thus revealing Reality. It is not referring to the Reality itself. You are mixing the two. Special effort is required each and every time one recognises that they have fallen back into the delusion. I have found the practice I have put forth in the originating post to be the most direct and immediate 'Path' out of the delusion. No spiritual hokey-pokey routines are necessary. When consciousness finally no longer falls back into delusion but remains in/as Self/Reality practice/effort is no longer required. I see this problem with so many of these discussions. There needs to be recognition that there can be talk of practice and 'Path', but there cannot be talk of what the Path leads to. So often one person will say something valid about practice and then someone jumps in with some grand statement about the Absolute. Both are perspectives are usually valid, but when they are put together they clash, like QM and General Relativity. There needs to be a distinction. Do you have an opinion on whether or not the same practice will work for anyone/everyone who follows the prescription? |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 3, 2015 15:25:05 GMT -5
If it works for one, that is enough.
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Post by laughter on Mar 3, 2015 16:30:00 GMT -5
If it works for one, that is enough. But the question wasn't about either your appearance as an individual or about what what it is that you are. The question was about the appearance of other individuals to whom a prescription is being offered. Your answer begs the question: is it enough that the prescription worked for you to offer it to others? To refine the question based on the answer: is the same prescription enough for everyone else? |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 3, 2015 16:45:31 GMT -5
You are the one reading this. Is there anyone else? If it works for you it works for everyone in your world.
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Post by laughter on Mar 3, 2015 16:51:53 GMT -5
You are the one reading this. Is there anyone else? If it works for you it works for everyone in your world. Your world is no different from mine, and I don't have one, but neither of these facts puts either of the questions to rest. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 3, 2015 17:00:04 GMT -5
Hey roy ........ I appreciate your view. By "Subsequent level of (Self)awareness determines the unfolding of physicality (action)." would for me, mean "Your being attracts your life". IOW, IMV (in my view) one still cannot directly do, in the physical realm, as you describe (maybe for a very long time, but not ultimately), but practice brings the unfolding of events in a different 'way'. Practice also brings a different order of value to one's life. What once was interesting is no longer found to be interesting. Life operates according to what we value. If you value things differently, this changes the influences you live under and this in turn changes the circumstances of one's life. And I would say, these influences do "not exist within the physical realm". So we could also say that interior practice is what allows us to live under a different level of influences. So, I am more in agreement with you than with ZD. ZD's view leaves no 'lever', no 'fulcrum', no "hope". The non-existence of a self, the existence of an illusory self (which seems also to be the non-existence of an illusory self), leaves no-point of possible 'realization', hopelessness. OK.....O....K...... Just saying, your view will not get much support here, but I haven't let that discourage me........and you (well....mostly your view) will receive subtle abuse....too.....(but not from ZD)..... and, likewise, satchitananda (while I'm here)............ This is a "Die Hard" non-dual forum....pretty-much..... SDP: Why do you assume "no hope?" I'm constantly telling peeps to shift attention away from thoughts to what can be seen, heard, felt, etc. From my POV that is the most efficacious thing I can do, and I do it with a vengeance. Of course, also from my POV, this body/mind has no choice in the matter, and it doesn't care! ha ha! I love telling peeps to shift attention away from thoughts because internal silence appears to foster realizations. I won't say that the effects of shifting attention are causal; I would rather say that the shifting and subsequent realizations are correlated. Things plays out exactly as they do, but I certainly wouldn't say that there is no hope. People discover what Jesus called their "True Self" (and what Ramana called "The Self") right on schedule, just like fruit ripening on a tree. If you weren't interested in non-duality and realization, you wouldn't be on this forum. As I've pointed out before, I consider intense attentiveness, deep sincerity, and overwhelming curiosity to be highly predictive of realizations, and that's why I recommend attentiveness and inquiry. Those are the two things that appear to involve volition, but they don't. They are just an imaginary means to an imaginary end. After Self-realization, it is realized that the One who was attending and inquiring wasn't a person. Ha ha. What a joke! This is why I often say that SOI has a fantastic sense of humor. Anyone who really gets this will understand why Tolle giggles all the time. It is almost too funny for words. The underlined is what was missing from the Buddhism I knew. The physical realm is not fundamental reality. To focus on sensations is yet not abiding as presence. There is one more shift in awareness to take place. In order to fully realize Self/Reality, one must withdraw focus away from senses so that they are no longer the primary focus. When this is done and Self awareness is unbroken, sensations are still experienced but in a all-at-once fashion rather than a one-at-a-time manner. Self becomes what is real and the physical realm is seen as unsubstantial, like a movie. The result for me personally is a loss of interest in physical experience, as abidance as Self is, simply put, the best thing ever. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 3, 2015 17:02:24 GMT -5
You are the one reading this. Is there anyone else? If it works for you it works for everyone in your world. Your world is no different from mine, and I don't have one, but neither of these facts puts either of the questions to rest. Only you can put questions to rest, regardless of answers. |
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Post by laughter on Mar 3, 2015 17:21:34 GMT -5
Your world is no different from mine, and I don't have one, but neither of these facts puts either of the questions to rest. Only you can put questions to rest, regardless of answers. True enough that, but in this case, I'm more interested in an answer, and not mine. In your interview you mentioned a transition where the distinction between meditation and day-to-day life ceased to be. I share that experience, and there's a line from this poem I wrote at the time applicable to the questions, and your current point: The truth that there is no I is balanced in the paradox by the truth that there is a you Of course there is no paradox but in mind, but there are answers to those questions, also in mind. I have mine but you haven't asked so they're of no import. You either have yours, or you don't. The mind answers obviously aren't as important as the absence of the questions, but in this case, they are definitely available, and they are pertinent in that prescriptions are always offered and received using the vehicle of mind, although obviously not intended for minds use. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 3, 2015 18:02:41 GMT -5
I hear ya loud and clear. Still not going to give you an answer. |
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Post by zendancer on Mar 3, 2015 18:07:52 GMT -5
You are the one reading this. Is there anyone else? If it works for you it works for everyone in your world. Gary Weber pursued a combination of zazen and yoga. He did it so faithfully that he stopped thinking about progress (checking to see how he was doing). Like the Nike commercial, he just did it. One day, in the middle of a yoga movement, his internal dialogue suddenly ceased and he realized that he wasn't who he thought he was. Subsequently, he wrote a book that lists all kinds of different practices. He thought that if someone didn't like zazen, or yoga, which seemed useful to him, maybe they'd prefer some other kind of contemplative practice. I wrote to him about ATA-T because he only seemed to be familiar with ATA+T. Because I experimented with dozens of different practices over the years, and because I met dozens of Self-realized people (and read the life stories of hundreds more), I looked to see what was common to all of the stories. My conclusion? Nothing is 100% common to all, but there were many things that were common to most of the stories. A few people, such as Tolle, are sorta one-off examples. Tolle had no practice of any kind. He had a monkey mind and a lousy self-image. Life was a pain, and he became intensely depressed. One night he had a crazy thought that stopped his mind, and he was plunged to the center of a numinous world. He claims that 80% of his thinking simply stopped and did not return. Tolle, however, is the exception. Most people who discover what's going on are more like Weber. They pursue inquiry, some form of meditation, or some sort of physical practice (such as Tai Chi or Yoga), and they shift attention to what is happening in the present moment. They lose interest in the past or future, have insights into how thoughts distort one's perception, learn to live with less and less reflection, and stop self-checking. They "Just Do It." Here are just a few activities that have been pursued by lots of people: breath-counting breath-following feeling the breath being the breath listening to universal sound listening to whatever sounds are present Looking without reflecting about what is seen koan contemplation (contemplating existential questions such as "Who am I?") contemplating personal koans related to everyday life) shikan taza tai chi yoga mantra repetition feeling the body watching the body being the body contemplating the body's operation self-remembering mindfulness (ATA+T) direct sensory perception (ATA-T) being aware of awareness staying in the I AM or contemplating the I AM Weber recommends that people experiment with different activities like these in order to find an activity that they enjoy. Some people recommend using lots of different practices whereas other people think it is more important to stick with a single practice. FWIW, I tried all but two of the activities on the above list, but ended up regularly using only about half of them. The four things that seem pretty common preceding realization include (1) an intense desire to understand what's going on, (2) an acknowledgement that one does not know what's going on, (3) a willingness to let go of all ideas and plunge into the unknown, and (4) a sufficient interest in what is actually happening so that attention shifts away from ideas to "what is," and then stays primarily focused upon "what is." At the center of all seeking is the imaginary "me" who imagines getting free, but the real Me is already free. The imaginary "me" imagines getting unified, but the real Me is already unified. The imaginary "me" imagines finding answers, but the real Me is already beyond all questions. The imaginary "me" imagines finding the Absolute, but the real Me is already the Absolute. The imaginary "me" imagines finding eternal life, but the real Me is already life eternal. Master Ikkyu's admonition was, "Attention, attention, attention." The Old Testament admonition was, "Be still and know." Jesus admonition was, "Look within." In the Gospel of Thomas Jesus is reported to have said, "My father's kingdom is spread out upon the world, but men do not see it." |
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Post by laughter on Mar 3, 2015 18:32:26 GMT -5
I hear ya loud and clear. Still not going to give you an answer. Fair enough, thanks for the admission anyway.  In that case I'll announce mine and invite your opinions and thoughts on it. Even the intellect on it's own can be used to discern the inherently unique nature of perspective. No two minds, no two bodies, no two sequences of experience are ever exactly alike. Two people looking at the Moon are in slightly different positions, and even if they trade spots, then they share a perspective separated in time. As practice is a time-bound appearance ultimately relative to the primary appearance of the individual, ultimately every path is singular, so the idea of a path is a misconception. On the other hand, what is realized is really nothing special as it's the root nonconceptual commonality between all perspectives -- "what" every perspective is "on" -- which defies apprehension by either intellect or emotion. So it's reasonable to expect that what appears to "work" for one will appear to "work" for at least some others. But the problem with that idea is the suggestion that the practice is causal to the end of it. That the practice results in the realization. As is often the case, Niz put it brilliantly: (From Chapter 92 of "I AM THAT", "Go Beyond the 'I am the body' idea")Niz: People differ. But all are faced with the fact of their own existence. 'I am' is the ultimate fact; 'Who am I'? is the ultimate question to which everybody must find an answer. Q: The same answer? Niz: The same in essence, varied in expression. Each seeker accepts or invents a method which suits him, applies it to himself with some earnestness and effort, obtains results according to his temperament and expectations, casts them into the mould of words, builds them into a system, establishes a tradition and begins to admit others into his 'school of yoga.' It is all built on memory and imagination. No such school is valueless nor indispensable; in each, one can progress up to the point when all desire for progress must be abandoned to make further progress possible. Then all schools are given up, all effort ceases; in solitude and darkness, the last step is made which ends ignorance and fear forever. The true teacher, however, will not imprison his disciple in a prescribed set of ideas, feelings and actions; on the contrary, he will show him patiently the need to be free from all ideas and set patterns of behavior, to be vigilant, and earnest and go with life wherever it takes him, not to enjoy or suffer, but to understand and learn. Under the right teacher, the disciple learns to learn, not to remember and obey. Satsang, the company of the noble, does not mould, it liberates. Beware of all that makes you dependent. Most of the so-called "surrenders to the guru' end in disappointment, if not in tragedy. Fortunately, an earnest seeker will disentangle himself in time, the wiser for the experience. So Roy, you see, I couldn't disagree with you more on this idea that if it works for you, then that's enough. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 3, 2015 20:02:16 GMT -5
Your realization is the reason for your world. When I say: "You are the one reading this. Is there anyone else? If it works for you it works for everyone in your world." I'm not saying it will work for everyone, am I? I'm saying that if it works for you then that's enough. The words are the same for each person that reads them.
My teaching is to point to Beingness as best I can. That is all. There is only one Beingness, so, the final step on the Path is the same for all.
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