soulvitamin
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Post by soulvitamin on Sept 25, 2014 1:36:17 GMT -5
The differences between the two questions are what is presupposed by them. Isn't the "ORIGINAL THOUGHT" based on the notion that there will be some explanation of how somethingness arose from nothingness? Isn't it the invitation to create a myth about creation? "Where do thoughts come from?" is based, first, on the self-evidence that that there is thinking going on, that this is a process that goes in cycles that have beginnings and endings. It also presupposes that the thoughts come from somewhere, that they have a source -- to be honest with you, in the final analysis, this is a misconception, but since we're discussing self-inquiry in the context of meditation, that seemed to me to come along for the ride. "What is the ORIGINAL THOUGHT?" is the start of abstraction, while "Where do thoughts come from?" is something that you can investigate in your direct experience. Do you still want to hear what I've picked up on the notion of the source of thoughts along the way? Dad sounds like a cool dude. Is he still with you? Was he into Zen? What did/does meditation mean to him? Yes, I do want to hear everything you figured, concluded, reveled for yourself... Specifically on thoughts process, how we become aware of a thought, what produces thoughts.
Let me ask one more thing, though... what is 'wrong' with abstraction? By abstracting we are able to see a Big Picture, so to speak, vs 'bits and pieces' of narrowing down. We have to look at the sky, at least sometime, and see beautiful Milky Way, stunning Rainbow.., not only go to work, eat, sleep and play football...
Anyway, my dad not even close to anything like 'spiritual' matters, he is very down to earth guy, but sometime his observations are wise and worth of attention. He is not religious nor atheist, but strongly believes that 'something' is leading us through our lives, navigating, directing.
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Post by laughter on Sept 25, 2014 3:22:52 GMT -5
The differences between the two questions are what is presupposed by them. Isn't the "ORIGINAL THOUGHT" based on the notion that there will be some explanation of how somethingness arose from nothingness? Isn't it the invitation to create a myth about creation? "Where do thoughts come from?" is based, first, on the self-evidence that that there is thinking going on, that this is a process that goes in cycles that have beginnings and endings. It also presupposes that the thoughts come from somewhere, that they have a source -- to be honest with you, in the final analysis, this is a misconception, but since we're discussing self-inquiry in the context of meditation, that seemed to me to come along for the ride. "What is the ORIGINAL THOUGHT?" is the start of abstraction, while "Where do thoughts come from?" is something that you can investigate in your direct experience. Do you still want to hear what I've picked up on the notion of the source of thoughts along the way? Dad sounds like a cool dude. Is he still with you? Was he into Zen? What did/does meditation mean to him? Yes, I do want to hear everything you figured, concluded, reveled for yourself... Specifically on thoughts process, how we become aware of a thought, what produces thoughts.
Let me ask one more thing, though... what is 'wrong' with abstraction? By abstracting we are able to see a Big Picture, so to speak, vs 'bits and pieces' of narrowing down. We have to look at the sky, at least sometime, and see beautiful Milky Way, stunning Rainbow.., not only go to work, eat, sleep and play football...
Anyway, my dad not even close to anything like 'spiritual' matters, he is very down to earth guy, but sometime his observations are wise and worth of attention. He is not religious nor atheist, but strongly believes that 'something' is leading us through our lives, navigating, directing.
Oh, there's nothing wrong with abstraction, nothing wrong at all. There are certain lines of it that I absolutely adore, that's for sure! It's just that abstraction is indirect, and is ultimately based on a false premise. While some of the deep knowledge that has been collected by the process of skeptical observation can put us on a notice of what is observed that is quite profound, information itself, is limited, and the mind can (and for most people does) come to rest on a structure of belief. Ultimately, any such structure is flawed. Your dad sounds like a character I'd enjoy sharing a beer with. The inception of the thought process involves the entanglement between attention and interest. What I've found is that most thoughts and feelings (nearly all actually) are simply reactions to stimuli based on conditioning, and here I use "conditioning" in the broadest sense to include both nature and nurture. There do seem to be some thoughts that aren't the direct response to stimuli, and sitting meditation using techniques similar to breath awareness is one way to put the mind in a state where this can be observed. Even these though, find expression based on past conditioning. To reach these states, where the mind is quiet enough to reveal the steady and unfocused hum from which a coherent stream of thought emerges, the higher level-functions of reasoning and abstraction have to be set aside. This can seem boring, uneventful and pointless, and the movement of mind that comes to those conclusions can be investigated and found to be the same one that construct agenda's, complicates the simple, and that fears.
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soulvitamin
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Awareness waits in the background....
Posts: 40
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Post by soulvitamin on Sept 25, 2014 11:27:39 GMT -5
Oh, there's nothing wrong with abstraction, nothing wrong at all. There are certain lines of it that I absolutely adore, that's for sure! It's just that abstraction is indirect, and is ultimately based on a false premise. While some of the deep knowledge that has been collected by the process of skeptical observation can put us on a notice of what is observed that is quite profound, information itself, is limited, and the mind can (and for most people does) come to rest on a structure of belief. Ultimately, any such structure is flawed. Your dad sounds like a character I'd enjoy sharing a beer with. The inception of the thought process involves the entanglement between attention and interest. What I've found is that most thoughts and feelings (nearly all actually) are simply reactions to stimuli based on conditioning, and here I use "conditioning" in the broadest sense to include both nature and nurture. There do seem to be some thoughts that aren't the direct response to stimuli, and sitting meditation using techniques similar to breath awareness is one way to put the mind in a state where this can be observed. Even these though, find expression based on past conditioning. To reach these states, where the mind is quiet enough to reveal the steady and unfocused hum from which a coherent stream of thought emerges, the higher level-functions of reasoning and abstraction have to be set aside. This can seem boring, uneventful and pointless, and the movement of mind that comes to those conclusions can be investigated and found to be the same one that construct agenda's, complicates the simple, and that fears. Seems like there is no way to strip 'conditioning' away... Probably, only infant is clear of any condition and able to observe. So, in this boring state of 'uneventfulness', mind observes WHAT? Trespassing thoughts? Sensations? Feelings? Itself? The main trick to it - not to attach your mind to any of these... Until it bangs 'on the wall' of NOTHING? I mean, how in the world can you bite your own teeth? hahahahahahaha !!! F E A R - the 'son -of a-bitch' that stands on my way, personally. How do I overcome it? How? Wait a minute! What if it is protecting me from .... WHAT?
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Post by silver on Sept 25, 2014 11:40:16 GMT -5
Oh, there's nothing wrong with abstraction, nothing wrong at all. There are certain lines of it that I absolutely adore, that's for sure! It's just that abstraction is indirect, and is ultimately based on a false premise. While some of the deep knowledge that has been collected by the process of skeptical observation can put us on a notice of what is observed that is quite profound, information itself, is limited, and the mind can (and for most people does) come to rest on a structure of belief. Ultimately, any such structure is flawed. Your dad sounds like a character I'd enjoy sharing a beer with. The inception of the thought process involves the entanglement between attention and interest. What I've found is that most thoughts and feelings (nearly all actually) are simply reactions to stimuli based on conditioning, and here I use "conditioning" in the broadest sense to include both nature and nurture. There do seem to be some thoughts that aren't the direct response to stimuli, and sitting meditation using techniques similar to breath awareness is one way to put the mind in a state where this can be observed. Even these though, find expression based on past conditioning. To reach these states, where the mind is quiet enough to reveal the steady and unfocused hum from which a coherent stream of thought emerges, the higher level-functions of reasoning and abstraction have to be set aside. This can seem boring, uneventful and pointless, and the movement of mind that comes to those conclusions can be investigated and found to be the same one that construct agenda's, complicates the simple, and that fears. Seems like there is no way to strip 'conditioning' away... Probably, only infant is clear of any condition and able to observe. So, in this boring state of 'uneventfulness', mind observes WHAT? Trespassing thoughts? Sensations? Feelings? Itself? The main trick to it - not to attach your mind to any of these... Until it bangs 'on the wall' of NOTHING? I mean, how in the world can you bite your own teeth? hahahahahahaha !!! F E A R - the 'son -of a-pregnant dog' that stands on my way, personally. How do I overcome it? How? Wait a minute! What if it is protecting me from .... WHAT?
I like your observations in free-flow there, sv. Makes me smile. It seems downright impossible for this mind to observe nothing - which to me, means - if you hit it just right, is uh, just totally wide open. I think the results happen 'later', ha ha. But...what do i know.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 25, 2014 12:21:26 GMT -5
[ Seems like there is no way to strip 'conditioning' away... Probably, only infant is clear of any condition and able to observe. So, in this boring state of 'uneventfulness', mind observes WHAT? Trespassing thoughts? Sensations? Feelings? Itself? The main trick to it - not to attach your mind to any of these... Until it bangs 'on the wall' of NOTHING? I mean, how in the world can you bite your own teeth? hahahahahahaha !!! F E A R - the 'son -of a-pregnant dog' that stands on my way, personally. How do I overcome it? How? Wait a minute! What if it is protecting me from .... WHAT?
escape into fear. overcome it by fully becoming it. impermanence is our friend. It's the fear of permanence that keeps fear around. face it and feel it. this too shall pass.
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Post by laughter on Sept 25, 2014 18:47:58 GMT -5
Oh, there's nothing wrong with abstraction, nothing wrong at all. There are certain lines of it that I absolutely adore, that's for sure! It's just that abstraction is indirect, and is ultimately based on a false premise. While some of the deep knowledge that has been collected by the process of skeptical observation can put us on a notice of what is observed that is quite profound, information itself, is limited, and the mind can (and for most people does) come to rest on a structure of belief. Ultimately, any such structure is flawed. Your dad sounds like a character I'd enjoy sharing a beer with. The inception of the thought process involves the entanglement between attention and interest. What I've found is that most thoughts and feelings (nearly all actually) are simply reactions to stimuli based on conditioning, and here I use "conditioning" in the broadest sense to include both nature and nurture. There do seem to be some thoughts that aren't the direct response to stimuli, and sitting meditation using techniques similar to breath awareness is one way to put the mind in a state where this can be observed. Even these though, find expression based on past conditioning. To reach these states, where the mind is quiet enough to reveal the steady and unfocused hum from which a coherent stream of thought emerges, the higher level-functions of reasoning and abstraction have to be set aside. This can seem boring, uneventful and pointless, and the movement of mind that comes to those conclusions can be investigated and found to be the same one that construct agenda's, complicates the simple, and that fears. Seems like there is no way to strip 'conditioning' away... Probably, only infant is clear of any condition and able to observe. So, in this boring state of 'uneventfulness', mind observes WHAT? Trespassing thoughts? Sensations? Feelings? Itself? The main trick to it - not to attach your mind to any of these... Until it bangs 'on the wall' of NOTHING? I mean, how in the world can you bite your own teeth? hahahahahahaha !!! F E A R - the 'son -of a-pregnant dog' that stands on my way, personally. How do I overcome it? How? Wait a minute! What if it is protecting me from .... WHAT?
Yes I'd agree that not all conditioning can be stripped away, nor need it be, just seen for what it is. When what is false is seen for the falsity it is, then it evaporates. Are you interested in what I've found to be false in this sort of inquiry? Yes, I agree -- if the thoughts are not assigned any valuation for truth/falsity, if they're left untouched, if they are starved of interest, then they just sail on through, and empty attention remains. From what I've read about it, this is what is meant by penetrating the koan of Mu. Yes, what is observed is the mind itself. Self-inquiry is the exercise of discerning what it is that is doing the observing. Fear isn't protecting you, it's protecting the pattern that generates the fear.
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soulvitamin
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Awareness waits in the background....
Posts: 40
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Post by soulvitamin on Sept 25, 2014 22:28:59 GMT -5
Yes I'd agree that not all conditioning can be stripped away, nor need it be, just seen for what it is. When what is false is seen for the falsity it is, then it evaporates. Are you interested in what I've found to be false in this sort of inquiry? Yes, I agree -- if the thoughts are not assigned any valuation for truth/falsity, if they're left untouched, if they are starved of interest, then they just sail on through, and empty attention remains. From what I've read about it, this is what is meant by penetrating the koan of Mu. Yes, what is observed is the mind itself. Self-inquiry is the exercise of discerning what it is that is doing the observing. Fear isn't protecting you, it's protecting the pattern that generates the fear. OMG! Thank you so very much! I am getting it again! I mean, I understand totally what you are saying. This stupid fear that I once experienced is holding me back from continuing self-inquiry exercises. Or, I guess, fear is simply my excuse for procrastination game. And YES, I am very much interested in what you found to be false in this sort of inquiry. Please continue, I am ready to absorb and digest.
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Post by laughter on Sept 25, 2014 22:50:30 GMT -5
Yes I'd agree that not all conditioning can be stripped away, nor need it be, just seen for what it is. When what is false is seen for the falsity it is, then it evaporates. Are you interested in what I've found to be false in this sort of inquiry? Yes, I agree -- if the thoughts are not assigned any valuation for truth/falsity, if they're left untouched, if they are starved of interest, then they just sail on through, and empty attention remains. From what I've read about it, this is what is meant by penetrating the koan of Mu. Yes, what is observed is the mind itself. Self-inquiry is the exercise of discerning what it is that is doing the observing. Fear isn't protecting you, it's protecting the pattern that generates the fear. OMG! Thank you so very much! I am getting it again! I mean, I understand totally what you are saying. This stupid fear that I once experienced is holding me back from continuing self-inquiry exercises. Or, I guess, fear is simply my excuse for procrastination game. And YES, I am very much interested in what you found to be false in this sort of inquiry. Please continue, I am ready to absorb and digest.
de nada sv. What's been discovered is that identification with any of the thoughts or emotions is based on a misconception and is false. This extends even to the senses as well -- any identification with anything seen or heard or tasted or smelled or felt is false. Anything.
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soulvitamin
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Awareness waits in the background....
Posts: 40
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Post by soulvitamin on Sept 25, 2014 23:12:36 GMT -5
de nada sv. What's been discovered is that identification with any of the thoughts or emotions is based on a misconception and is false. This extends even to the senses as well -- any identification with anything seen or heard or tasted or smelled or felt is false. Anything. Now I am vacillating... How to keep the perfect balance ? On the left - I am all these seeing, hearing, tasting, smelling, feeling. On the right - I am misconceptuality and falsification of everything above. There is only one thing is possible in order to stay balanced - being an Empty Boat, per Osho.....
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Post by laughter on Sept 25, 2014 23:14:03 GMT -5
de nada sv. What's been discovered is that identification with any of the thoughts or emotions is based on a misconception and is false. This extends even to the senses as well -- any identification with anything seen or heard or tasted or smelled or felt is false. Anything. Now I am vacillating... How to keep the perfect balance ? On the left - I am all these seeing, hearing, tasting, smelling, feeling. On the right - I am misconceptuality and falsification of everything above. There is only one thing is possible in order to stay balanced - being an Empty Boat, per Osho.....
I have a different way of stating what is on the left.
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soulvitamin
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Awareness waits in the background....
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Post by soulvitamin on Sept 25, 2014 23:24:57 GMT -5
I have a different way of stating what is on the left. What different way? Seeing it for what it is and gracefully surrender?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 26, 2014 2:59:26 GMT -5
de nada sv. What's been discovered is that identification with any of the thoughts or emotions is based on a misconception and is false. This extends even to the senses as well -- any identification with anything seen or heard or tasted or smelled or felt is false. Anything. Any, identification, you say?
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Post by laughter on Sept 26, 2014 6:56:35 GMT -5
de nada sv. What's been discovered is that identification with any of the thoughts or emotions is based on a misconception and is false. This extends even to the senses as well -- any identification with anything seen or heard or tasted or smelled or felt is false. Anything. Any, identification, you say? Yes, I do.
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Post by laughter on Sept 26, 2014 7:04:31 GMT -5
I have a different way of stating what is on the left. What different way? Seeing it for what it is and gracefully surrender?
All the beauty and terror, the sublime and the droll, the pure clean fresh water and the toxic runoff from the factory ... all the conditioning all the history, each foregone conclusion of our future and any roll of the dice .. my home, my loves my mind and my body .. None of that is what I am, but it and I are not two. This isn't to say that I encompass the world, or that I am in it. Despite appearances -- which are always deceptive -- this idea of "I" has nothing to do with any notion of my being the cause of anything I survey, or that I am caused by anything. This notion of "I" discovered in the silent watching simply defies ideation. Any ideation.
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soulvitamin
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Awareness waits in the background....
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Post by soulvitamin on Sept 26, 2014 8:30:20 GMT -5
All the beauty and terror, the sublime and the droll, the pure clean fresh water and the toxic runoff from the factory ... all the conditioning all the history, each foregone conclusion of our future and any roll of the dice .. my home, my loves my mind and my body .. None of that is what I am, but it and I are not two. This isn't to say that I encompass the world, or that I am in it. Despite appearances -- which are always deceptive -- this idea of "I" has nothing to do with any notion of my being the cause of anything I survey, or that I am caused by anything. This notion of "I" discovered in the silent watching simply defies ideation. Any ideation. Eureka!!! I am having a "(H)aha" moment... You are a "stripper man" - undeniably defying deceptiveness of any (I)deation . Seriously, this notion full of contradictions, yet mesmeri(Z)enly beautifull....
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