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Post by sunshine on Sept 12, 2014 11:35:30 GMT -5
So regardless of the method, or means of arriving at the experience of a meditative state, the actual experience is the same. One thing to understand, is that meditation is more like a state, than it is a practice. Various practices like sitting ZaZen, or many of the 112 methods in the Vigyan Bhairav Tantra, or in the vedic traditions etc. can lead to meditation, but are not meditation. The way you get up the hill, is not the same as sitting on the hilltop....So be careful not to confuse the legion of methods for arriving at meditation with meditation. There is no 'meditating', only a state of meditation, what most people call 'meditating' is actually a practice for arriving at meditation. Contemplation, sitting ZaZen, breath following, TM, ATA, these are not meditation, they are means to arrive at meditation, and the means have their own benefits besides helping one open into a meditative state. For a method to open into a state of meditation, one needs to apply three things within their method....Increasing Alertness, Increasing Focus, and Increasing Concentration. I say 'increasing' because all three of these; Alertness, Focus, Concentration, have to be exercised and developed over time by repeated and consistent use, like a muscle...with a low capacity for sustained alertness, focus, and concentration, no method or practice used to arrive at meditation will work. You must have or develop the capacity to be alert, focus on a specific action, sense, or object, and be able to concentrate, or hold your focus on your means of getting to a meditative state WITH ALERTNESS. This can be difficult for some at first, because people like sleeping so to speak, they like distraction and wandering, and oft prefer a kind of subtle lethargy rather than alertness....perseverance is needed to develop the capacity for alertness, focus, and concentration, all three of which provide many benefits besides being able to open into meditation. The state of meditation itself, occurs when one focuses on an activity, sense, or object with such sustained alertness, focus, and concentration that all sense of doership suddenly drops away, even while one is very alert....this state of alert stillness, or non-doing in the midst of the happening of this moment is the entry point to meditation...on deeper levels of meditation, like relative or absolute Samadhi, both the sense of 'doing' and the sense of seperation of observer and observed disappear completely. It happens frequently that we get so absorbed into something that the sense of doing and being a separate observer disappears, but what separates this from meditation, is alertness, consciousness, and intention. And therein is all the difference. Does that answer your Question Max and '.' ? i dont know i had an experience the other day,and this morning-- when a number of small matters went wrong, and i seemed to be wasting a lot of time without result (trying to get a carpart replaced on scrapyard) --still, it did not irritate me--it was just how things went and i went along with it and had the best intention, of getting my car heater ventilator fixed... eventually i came to the place i had been the day before, i had told the guy i would pass by with the broken part, so he could compare it to what he had...i was going to buy that part, i was sure...--but he wasnt there...bugger...then i sat in my car (´´he´ll be back in 5 minutes´´--in portugal that means ´´before tomorrow´´) and i fiddled around with the ventilator that was stuck and wouldnt turn...suddenly it gave way and spun freely...i drove home and reconnected it--it worked perfectly... all these little mishaps, saved me 40 euros or more..money i can well use for other things now this thing had been in that car for 14 years and 525.000 kilometers...it stopped working and started smelling , smoke came out of it...it only could be broken...burnt...logic and experience told me that... or i make a painting, i use blacklight colors,but have no electricity... and after 4 to 5 or hours of work,3 sessions,sun starts shining and i have power again..... i turn on the blacklight, and lo and behold--unwittingly i painted something beautiful that lifts the painting above the ordinary--- if you can enlarge look at the eyes in the 3rd one, and the whiteblue lines in the second... i only painted the first one consciuosly(btw the painting i changed a lot afterwards but have no photo )  i wont say in the first story one there wasnt a ´´doer´´--decisions were made...sock puppets play their respective roles--- in the second one--well for me this is like meditation--does it disqualify me? there was a ´´doer´´, a specific ´´plan´´ to execute i never do any ´´practice´´...although i say ´´thank you ´´regularly to that light that shines through everything....humans, objects..if i shift focus a little... so i can not really relate to what you say, Steve..but maybe i misunderstand...where does this rank in your scale? |
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Post by steven on Sept 12, 2014 15:02:51 GMT -5
I can't identify an un-natural state, can you? Which means the question may be misconceived. Whether or not it's misconceived, if you can't identify an unnatural state ... well ... 'nuff said.  The question of finding an un-natural state reminds me of an old Sufi parable: A child once came to a famous Sufi sage and asked the Sufi to show him God. The Sufi asked if he was hungry, and the boy said yes. He handed to boy a chicken and told him to go slaughter the chicken, but do it only somewhere where God is not there. 10 years later, the boy, now a young man, came back with a really old chicken, and handed it back to the Sage. |
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Post by steven on Sept 12, 2014 15:11:22 GMT -5
So regardless of the method, or means of arriving at the experience of a meditative state, the actual experience is the same. One thing to understand, is that meditation is more like a state, than it is a practice. Various practices like sitting ZaZen, or many of the 112 methods in the Vigyan Bhairav Tantra, or in the vedic traditions etc. can lead to meditation, but are not meditation. The way you get up the hill, is not the same as sitting on the hilltop....So be careful not to confuse the legion of methods for arriving at meditation with meditation. There is no 'meditating', only a state of meditation, what most people call 'meditating' is actually a practice for arriving at meditation. Contemplation, sitting ZaZen, breath following, TM, ATA, these are not meditation, they are means to arrive at meditation, and the means have their own benefits besides helping one open into a meditative state. For a method to open into a state of meditation, one needs to apply three things within their method....Increasing Alertness, Increasing Focus, and Increasing Concentration. I say 'increasing' because all three of these; Alertness, Focus, Concentration, have to be exercised and developed over time by repeated and consistent use, like a muscle...with a low capacity for sustained alertness, focus, and concentration, no method or practice used to arrive at meditation will work. You must have or develop the capacity to be alert, focus on a specific action, sense, or object, and be able to concentrate, or hold your focus on your means of getting to a meditative state WITH ALERTNESS. This can be difficult for some at first, because people like sleeping so to speak, they like distraction and wandering, and oft prefer a kind of subtle lethargy rather than alertness....perseverance is needed to develop the capacity for alertness, focus, and concentration, all three of which provide many benefits besides being able to open into meditation. The state of meditation itself, occurs when one focuses on an activity, sense, or object with such sustained alertness, focus, and concentration that all sense of doership suddenly drops away, even while one is very alert....this state of alert stillness, or non-doing in the midst of the happening of this moment is the entry point to meditation...on deeper levels of meditation, like relative or absolute Samadhi, both the sense of 'doing' and the sense of seperation of observer and observed disappear completely. It happens frequently that we get so absorbed into something that the sense of doing and being a separate observer disappears, but what separates this from meditation, is alertness, consciousness, and intention. And therein is all the difference. Does that answer your Question Max and '.' ? i dont know i had an experience the other day,and this morning-- when a number of small matters went wrong, and i seemed to be wasting a lot of time without result (trying to get a carpart replaced on scrapyard) --still, it did not irritate me--it was just how things went and i went along with it and had the best intention, of getting my car heater ventilator fixed... eventually i came to the place i had been the day before, i had told the guy i would pass by with the broken part, so he could compare it to what he had...i was going to buy that part, i was sure...--but he wasnt there...bugger...then i sat in my car (´´he´ll be back in 5 minutes´´--in portugal that means ´´before tomorrow´´) and i fiddled around with the ventilator that was stuck and wouldnt turn...suddenly it gave way and spun freely...i drove home and reconnected it--it worked perfectly... all these little mishaps, saved me 40 euros or more..money i can well use for other things now this thing had been in that car for 14 years and 525.000 kilometers...it stopped working and started smelling , smoke came out of it...it only could be broken...burnt...logic and experience told me that... or i make a painting, i use blacklight colors,but have no electricity... and after 4 to 5 or hours of work,3 sessions,sun starts shining and i have power again..... i turn on the blacklight, and lo and behold--unwittingly i painted something beautiful that lifts the painting above the ordinary--- if you can enlarge look at the eyes in the 3rd one, and the whiteblue lines in the second... i only painted the first one consciuosly(btw the painting i changed a lot afterwards but have no photo ) i wont say in the first story one there wasnt a ´´doer´´--decisions were made...sock puppets play their respective roles--- in the second one--well for me this is like meditation--does it disqualify me? there was a ´´doer´´, a specific ´´plan´´ to execute i never do any ´´practice´´...although i say ´´thank you ´´regularly to that light that shines through everything....humans, objects..if i shift focus a little... so i can not really relate to what you say, Steve..but maybe i misunderstand...where does this rank in your scale? I'm not 'ranking' anyone, I'm pointing everyone toward meditation. I suspect that while painting, you are in a state of both shallow and deep meditation quite often...When I was painting it was so, and I have never met a painter who does to get so alertly focussed on what they are doing that the painting just kinda happens, each brush stroke, the paint, the brush, the canvas, the movement...all one happening, with no sense of separation from the work. |
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Post by silver on Sept 12, 2014 15:12:52 GMT -5
I liked the sufi and the chicken story, steve. funny.  Beautiful artwork, sunspot.  |
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Post by laughter on Sept 12, 2014 15:16:40 GMT -5
Whether or not it's misconceived, if you can't identify an unnatural state ... well ... 'nuff said. The question of finding an un-natural state reminds me of an old Sufi parable: A child once came to a famous Sufi sage and asked the Sufi to show him God. The Sufi asked if he was hungry, and the boy said yes. He handed to boy a chicken and told him to go slaughter the chicken, but do it only somewhere where God is not there. 10 years later, the boy, now a young man, came back with a really old chicken, and handed it back to the Sage. Well that's a very touching story, truly, I'm not being sarcastic. The story is sort of precious, in a way, and while no image should be sacrosanct, some seem to call out for and appeal to our better natures for a sense of respect. Hmmmm ... what's that all about I wonder ...   "God is everywhere, everything", "All is one" ... if these are simply ideas, then they are the unnatural state. |
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Post by sunshine on Sept 12, 2014 18:06:08 GMT -5
i dont know i had an experience the other day,and this morning-- when a number of small matters went wrong, and i seemed to be wasting a lot of time without result (trying to get a carpart replaced on scrapyard) --still, it did not irritate me--it was just how things went and i went along with it and had the best intention, of getting my car heater ventilator fixed... eventually i came to the place i had been the day before, i had told the guy i would pass by with the broken part, so he could compare it to what he had...i was going to buy that part, i was sure...--but he wasnt there...bugger...then i sat in my car (´´he´ll be back in 5 minutes´´--in portugal that means ´´before tomorrow´´) and i fiddled around with the ventilator that was stuck and wouldnt turn...suddenly it gave way and spun freely...i drove home and reconnected it--it worked perfectly... all these little mishaps, saved me 40 euros or more..money i can well use for other things now this thing had been in that car for 14 years and 525.000 kilometers...it stopped working and started smelling , smoke came out of it...it only could be broken...burnt...logic and experience told me that... or i make a painting, i use blacklight colors,but have no electricity... and after 4 to 5 or hours of work,3 sessions,sun starts shining and i have power again..... i turn on the blacklight, and lo and behold--unwittingly i painted something beautiful that lifts the painting above the ordinary--- if you can enlarge look at the eyes in the 3rd one, and the whiteblue lines in the second... i only painted the first one consciuosly(btw the painting i changed a lot afterwards but have no photo ) i wont say in the first story one there wasnt a ´´doer´´--decisions were made...sock puppets play their respective roles--- in the second one--well for me this is like meditation--does it disqualify me? there was a ´´doer´´, a specific ´´plan´´ to execute i never do any ´´practice´´...although i say ´´thank you ´´regularly to that light that shines through everything....humans, objects..if i shift focus a little... so i can not really relate to what you say, Steve..but maybe i misunderstand...where does this rank in your scale? I'm not 'ranking' anyone, I'm pointing everyone toward meditation. I suspect that while painting, you are in a state of both shallow and deep meditation quite often...When I was painting it was so, and I have never met a painter who does to get so alertly focussed on what they are doing that the painting just kinda happens, each brush stroke, the paint, the brush, the canvas, the movement.. .all one happening, with no sense of separation from the work.that sounds like the zen approach, where one needs to be a true master at the technique before one can do that a story a king once asked a famous painter for a drawing of a bull the painter said okay, but would not say when it would be finished after a year the king asked , so where is the drawing sorry, sir, it is not ready yet another year passed and the king asked again, where is my drawing? sorry your highness, it is not yet finished after the third year had pased, the king asked again the question--is it ready? yes your highness please come to my studio where you can see it the king came. and there the artist drew a perfect drawing of a bull in a few strokes the king asked, but how come you let me wait three years for this? then the artist drew back a curtain, and there the king saw hundreds upon hundreds of drawings of that same bull--- |
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Post by steven on Sept 12, 2014 19:41:53 GMT -5
The question of finding an un-natural state reminds me of an old Sufi parable: A child once came to a famous Sufi sage and asked the Sufi to show him God. The Sufi asked if he was hungry, and the boy said yes. He handed to boy a chicken and told him to go slaughter the chicken, but do it only somewhere where God is not there. 10 years later, the boy, now a young man, came back with a really old chicken, and handed it back to the Sage. Well that's a very touching story, truly, I'm not being sarcastic. The story is sort of precious, in a way, and while no image should be sacrosanct, some seem to call out for and appeal to our better natures for a sense of respect. Hmmmm ... what's that all about I wonder ... "God is everywhere, everything", "All is one" ... if these are simply ideas, then they are the unnatural state. To that last bit: Is it? I would have agreed with you not so long ago, but now it all seems like the 'natural state' so to speak, and I cannot see how anything can be other than the natural state. |
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Post by laughter on Sept 12, 2014 19:52:48 GMT -5
Well that's a very touching story, truly, I'm not being sarcastic. The story is sort of precious, in a way, and while no image should be sacrosanct, some seem to call out for and appeal to our better natures for a sense of respect. Hmmmm ... what's that all about I wonder ... "God is everywhere, everything", "All is one" ... if these are simply ideas, then they are the unnatural state. To that last bit: Is it? I would have agreed with you not so long ago, but now it all seems like the 'natural state' so to speak, and I cannot see how anything can be other than the natural state. Well, we're never not that, but if there's subscription to an objectification, if there's identification with some form, then we've mistaken something that we're not, for the natural state. It's that mistake that's meant by the unnatural state, and that's something that's very clearly definable and demonstrable, while natural state is, after all, a pointer. |
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Post by steven on Sept 12, 2014 20:33:36 GMT -5
To that last bit: Is it? I would have agreed with you not so long ago, but now it all seems like the 'natural state' so to speak, and I cannot see how anything can be other than the natural state. Well, we're never not that, but if there's subscription to an objectification, if there's identification with some form, then we've mistaken something that we're not, for the natural state. It's that mistake that's meant by the unnatural state, and that's something that's very clearly definable and demonstrable, while natural state is, after all, a pointer. That all seems like a bit of supposition to me, like you are saying that there is a kind of certianty of knowability available in any of this experience that we all share. And while it is simple observable experience that some 'states' are more enjoyable than others, I find it hard to find any state, whether it engenders a 'good' experience or a 'bad' experience as being an un-natural state. The state you are in is the natural state. Your current view, is the natural view for you, at least for his moment....is it not. Only when we are looking thru the imagined lens of permanence, and envisioning that any state is or should be permanent, does the conception of an un-natural state arise. Either way, if its happening, its natural. |
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Post by Reefs on Sept 12, 2014 21:48:32 GMT -5
Is this meditative state the natural state?
Which means the question may be misconceived. That's the exact opposite of what you wrote in your OP. |
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Post by Reefs on Sept 12, 2014 21:53:31 GMT -5
Your description of a state of meditation doesn't ring a bell over here. And you're making it sound like I can only have a conversation here if I've been in that state. So I guess I'm at a loss for words. My opinion of the descriptions of the elements of deliberately approaching a mind state with less clutter that resulted from it though, are different from that.  So I'd conclude that engaging with nonsense can sometimes result in something that's not nonsense. Yup. After some flak, Steve is taking the opposite position now. Which suggests a lack of clarity. |
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Post by Reefs on Sept 12, 2014 21:57:44 GMT -5
Well, we're never not that, but if there's subscription to an objectification, if there's identification with some form, then we've mistaken something that we're not, for the natural state. It's that mistake that's meant by the unnatural state, and that's something that's very clearly definable and demonstrable, while natural state is, after all, a pointer. That all seems like a bit of supposition to me, like you are saying that there is a kind of certianty of knowability available in any of this experience that we all share. And while it is simple observable experience that some 'states' are more enjoyable than others, I find it hard to find any state, whether it engenders a 'good' experience or a 'bad' experience as being an un-natural state. The state you are in is the natural state. Your current view, is the natural view for you, at least for his moment....is it not. Only when we are looking thru the imagined lens of permanence, and envisioning that any state is or should be permanent, does the conception of an un-natural state arise.
Either way, if its happening, its natural.That's the face value fallacy again which usually results in mixing contexts. |
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Post by laughter on Sept 12, 2014 21:58:01 GMT -5
Well, we're never not that, but if there's subscription to an objectification, if there's identification with some form, then we've mistaken something that we're not, for the natural state. It's that mistake that's meant by the unnatural state, and that's something that's very clearly definable and demonstrable, while natural state is, after all, a pointer. That all seems like a bit of supposition to me, like you are saying that there is a kind of certianty of knowability available in any of this experience that we all share. And while it is simple observable experience that some 'states' are more enjoyable than others, I find it hard to find any state, whether it engenders a 'good' experience or a 'bad' experience as being an un-natural state. The state you are in is the natural state. Your current view, is the natural view for you, at least for his moment....is it not. Only when we are looking thru the imagined lens of permanence, and envisioning that any state is or should be permanent, does the conception of an un-natural state arise. Either way, if its happening, its natural. No, no supposition involved.  |
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Post by steven on Sept 12, 2014 23:42:14 GMT -5
That all seems like a bit of supposition to me, like you are saying that there is a kind of certianty of knowability available in any of this experience that we all share. And while it is simple observable experience that some 'states' are more enjoyable than others, I find it hard to find any state, whether it engenders a 'good' experience or a 'bad' experience as being an un-natural state. The state you are in is the natural state. Your current view, is the natural view for you, at least for his moment....is it not. Only when we are looking thru the imagined lens of permanence, and envisioning that any state is or should be permanent, does the conception of an un-natural state arise.
Either way, if its happening, its natural.That's the face value fallacy again which usually results in mixing contexts. I have no idea what you are talking about, sounds like psychobabble, or maybe philosobabble :-) |
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Post by steven on Sept 12, 2014 23:46:30 GMT -5
I can't identify an un-natural state, can you?
Which means the question may be misconceived. That's the exact opposite of what you wrote in your OP. Not really, its actually kinda an entirely different subject than the OP ;-) Do you wanna talk about meditation, or the so called natural vs un-natural states? |
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