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Post by Reefs on Sept 12, 2014 5:03:57 GMT -5
Escapism isn't living fully either. Haha........if you see meditation as escapism.... I didn't say that. well that explains a lot.... What does it explain? |
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Post by Reefs on Sept 12, 2014 5:11:23 GMT -5
So if you are not meditating regularly, what the hell are you doing here, if not engaging in self delusional mind games and escapism? If what you are discussing here is not a description of your here and now experience, what the hell are you doing here if not engaging in self-delusional mind games and escapism? |
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Post by Reefs on Sept 12, 2014 5:22:24 GMT -5
So regardless of the method, or means of arriving at the experience of a meditative state, the actual experience is the same. One thing to understand, is that meditation is more like a state, than it is a practice. Various practices like sitting ZaZen, or many of the 112 methods in the Vigyan Bhairav Tantra, or in the vedic traditions etc. can lead to meditation, but are not meditation. The way you get up the hill, is not the same as sitting on the hilltop....So be careful not to confuse the legion of methods for arriving at meditation with meditation. There is no 'meditating', only a state of meditation, what most people call 'meditating' is actually a practice for arriving at meditation. Contemplation, sitting ZaZen, breath following, TM, ATA, these are not meditation, they are means to arrive at meditation, and the means have their own benefits besides helping one open into a meditative state. For a method to open into a state of meditation, one needs to apply three things within their method....Increasing Alertness, Increasing Focus, and Increasing Concentration. I say 'increasing' because all three of these; Alertness, Focus, Concentration, have to be exercised and developed over time by repeated and consistent use, like a muscle...with a low capacity for sustained alertness, focus, and concentration, no method or practice used to arrive at meditation will work. You must have or develop the capacity to be alert, focus on a specific action, sense, or object, and be able to concentrate, or hold your focus on your means of getting to a meditative state WITH ALERTNESS. This can be difficult for some at first, because people like sleeping so to speak, they like distraction and wandering, and oft prefer a kind of subtle lethargy rather than alertness....perseverance is needed to develop the capacity for alertness, focus, and concentration, all three of which provide many benefits besides being able to open into meditation. The state of meditation itself, occurs when one focuses on an activity, sense, or object with such sustained alertness, focus, and concentration that all sense of doership suddenly drops away, even while one is very alert....this state of alert stillness, or non-doing in the midst of the happening of this moment is the entry point to meditation...on deeper levels of meditation, like relative or absolute Samadhi, both the sense of 'doing' and the sense of seperation of observer and observed disappear completely. It happens frequently that we get so absorbed into something that the sense of doing and being a separate observer disappears, but what separates this from meditation, is alertness, consciousness, and intention. And therein is all the difference. Does that answer your Question Max and '.' ? Is this meditative state the natural state? |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2014 8:08:40 GMT -5
So regardless of the method, or means of arriving at the experience of a meditative state, the actual experience is the same. One thing to understand, is that meditation is more like a state, than it is a practice. Various practices like sitting ZaZen, or many of the 112 methods in the Vigyan Bhairav Tantra, or in the vedic traditions etc. can lead to meditation, but are not meditation. The way you get up the hill, is not the same as sitting on the hilltop....So be careful not to confuse the legion of methods for arriving at meditation with meditation. There is no 'meditating', only a state of meditation, what most people call 'meditating' is actually a practice for arriving at meditation. Contemplation, sitting ZaZen, breath following, TM, ATA, these are not meditation, they are means to arrive at meditation, and the means have their own benefits besides helping one open into a meditative state. For a method to open into a state of meditation, one needs to apply three things within their method....Increasing Alertness, Increasing Focus, and Increasing Concentration. I say 'increasing' because all three of these; Alertness, Focus, Concentration, have to be exercised and developed over time by repeated and consistent use, like a muscle...with a low capacity for sustained alertness, focus, and concentration, no method or practice used to arrive at meditation will work. You must have or develop the capacity to be alert, focus on a specific action, sense, or object, and be able to concentrate, or hold your focus on your means of getting to a meditative state WITH ALERTNESS. This can be difficult for some at first, because people like sleeping so to speak, they like distraction and wandering, and oft prefer a kind of subtle lethargy rather than alertness....perseverance is needed to develop the capacity for alertness, focus, and concentration, all three of which provide many benefits besides being able to open into meditation. The state of meditation itself, occurs when one focuses on an activity, sense, or object with such sustained alertness, focus, and concentration that all sense of doership suddenly drops away, even while one is very alert....this state of alert stillness, or non-doing in the midst of the happening of this moment is the entry point to meditation...on deeper levels of meditation, like relative or absolute Samadhi, both the sense of 'doing' and the sense of seperation of observer and observed disappear completely. It happens frequently that we get so absorbed into something that the sense of doing and being a separate observer disappears, but what separates this from meditation, is alertness, consciousness, and intention. And therein is all the difference. Does that answer your Question Max and '.' ? Yes, thanks for the clarification. So put me in the voyeur/peeping tom box. And from your declaration, I guess I shouldn't be here. So, bye. |
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Post by steven on Sept 12, 2014 8:30:38 GMT -5
So regardless of the method, or means of arriving at the experience of a meditative state, the actual experience is the same. One thing to understand, is that meditation is more like a state, than it is a practice. Various practices like sitting ZaZen, or many of the 112 methods in the Vigyan Bhairav Tantra, or in the vedic traditions etc. can lead to meditation, but are not meditation. The way you get up the hill, is not the same as sitting on the hilltop....So be careful not to confuse the legion of methods for arriving at meditation with meditation. There is no 'meditating', only a state of meditation, what most people call 'meditating' is actually a practice for arriving at meditation. Contemplation, sitting ZaZen, breath following, TM, ATA, these are not meditation, they are means to arrive at meditation, and the means have their own benefits besides helping one open into a meditative state. For a method to open into a state of meditation, one needs to apply three things within their method....Increasing Alertness, Increasing Focus, and Increasing Concentration. I say 'increasing' because all three of these; Alertness, Focus, Concentration, have to be exercised and developed over time by repeated and consistent use, like a muscle...with a low capacity for sustained alertness, focus, and concentration, no method or practice used to arrive at meditation will work. You must have or develop the capacity to be alert, focus on a specific action, sense, or object, and be able to concentrate, or hold your focus on your means of getting to a meditative state WITH ALERTNESS. This can be difficult for some at first, because people like sleeping so to speak, they like distraction and wandering, and oft prefer a kind of subtle lethargy rather than alertness....perseverance is needed to develop the capacity for alertness, focus, and concentration, all three of which provide many benefits besides being able to open into meditation. The state of meditation itself, occurs when one focuses on an activity, sense, or object with such sustained alertness, focus, and concentration that all sense of doership suddenly drops away, even while one is very alert....this state of alert stillness, or non-doing in the midst of the happening of this moment is the entry point to meditation...on deeper levels of meditation, like relative or absolute Samadhi, both the sense of 'doing' and the sense of seperation of observer and observed disappear completely. It happens frequently that we get so absorbed into something that the sense of doing and being a separate observer disappears, but what separates this from meditation, is alertness, consciousness, and intention. And therein is all the difference. Does that answer your Question Max and '.' ? Yes, thanks for the clarification. So put me in the voyeur/peeping tom box. And from your declaration, I guess I shouldn't be here. So, bye. Or, alternatively....spend some time in meditation, and have a conversation drawn from experience, rather than conjecture? |
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Post by steven on Sept 12, 2014 8:35:21 GMT -5
So regardless of the method, or means of arriving at the experience of a meditative state, the actual experience is the same. One thing to understand, is that meditation is more like a state, than it is a practice. Various practices like sitting ZaZen, or many of the 112 methods in the Vigyan Bhairav Tantra, or in the vedic traditions etc. can lead to meditation, but are not meditation. The way you get up the hill, is not the same as sitting on the hilltop....So be careful not to confuse the legion of methods for arriving at meditation with meditation. There is no 'meditating', only a state of meditation, what most people call 'meditating' is actually a practice for arriving at meditation. Contemplation, sitting ZaZen, breath following, TM, ATA, these are not meditation, they are means to arrive at meditation, and the means have their own benefits besides helping one open into a meditative state. For a method to open into a state of meditation, one needs to apply three things within their method....Increasing Alertness, Increasing Focus, and Increasing Concentration. I say 'increasing' because all three of these; Alertness, Focus, Concentration, have to be exercised and developed over time by repeated and consistent use, like a muscle...with a low capacity for sustained alertness, focus, and concentration, no method or practice used to arrive at meditation will work. You must have or develop the capacity to be alert, focus on a specific action, sense, or object, and be able to concentrate, or hold your focus on your means of getting to a meditative state WITH ALERTNESS. This can be difficult for some at first, because people like sleeping so to speak, they like distraction and wandering, and oft prefer a kind of subtle lethargy rather than alertness....perseverance is needed to develop the capacity for alertness, focus, and concentration, all three of which provide many benefits besides being able to open into meditation. The state of meditation itself, occurs when one focuses on an activity, sense, or object with such sustained alertness, focus, and concentration that all sense of doership suddenly drops away, even while one is very alert....this state of alert stillness, or non-doing in the midst of the happening of this moment is the entry point to meditation...on deeper levels of meditation, like relative or absolute Samadhi, both the sense of 'doing' and the sense of seperation of observer and observed disappear completely. It happens frequently that we get so absorbed into something that the sense of doing and being a separate observer disappears, but what separates this from meditation, is alertness, consciousness, and intention. And therein is all the difference. Does that answer your Question Max and '.' ? Is this meditative state the natural state? I can't identify an un-natural state, can you? Which means the question may be misconceived. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2014 9:03:48 GMT -5
Yes, thanks for the clarification. So put me in the voyeur/peeping tom box. And from your declaration, I guess I shouldn't be here. So, bye. Or, alternatively....spend some time in meditation, and have a conversation drawn from experience, rather than conjecture? Your description of a state of meditation doesn't ring a bell over here. And you're making it sound like I can only have a conversation here if I've been in that state. So I guess I'm at a loss for words. I was going to ask you to elaborate on how one knows if they've arrived at the state of meditation. You said that it wasthat the sense of doership is suddenly lost. It's hard to know what you're talking about because the 'sense of doership' is something I don't feel familiar with. Perhaps this sense is only known when it is lost? Or perhaps it was never there to begin with and just exists as a label for a set of physical sensations that maybe someone else doesn't label? These are genuine questions. |
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Post by laughter on Sept 12, 2014 10:08:29 GMT -5
So regardless of the method, or means of arriving at the experience of a meditative state, the actual experience is the same. One thing to understand, is that meditation is more like a state, than it is a practice. Various practices like sitting ZaZen, or many of the 112 methods in the Vigyan Bhairav Tantra, or in the vedic traditions etc. can lead to meditation, but are not meditation. The way you get up the hill, is not the same as sitting on the hilltop....So be careful not to confuse the legion of methods for arriving at meditation with meditation. There is no 'meditating', only a state of meditation, what most people call 'meditating' is actually a practice for arriving at meditation. Contemplation, sitting ZaZen, breath following, TM, ATA, these are not meditation, they are means to arrive at meditation, and the means have their own benefits besides helping one open into a meditative state. For a method to open into a state of meditation, one needs to apply three things within their method....Increasing Alertness, Increasing Focus, and Increasing Concentration. I say 'increasing' because all three of these; Alertness, Focus, Concentration, have to be exercised and developed over time by repeated and consistent use, like a muscle...with a low capacity for sustained alertness, focus, and concentration, no method or practice used to arrive at meditation will work. You must have or develop the capacity to be alert, focus on a specific action, sense, or object, and be able to concentrate, or hold your focus on your means of getting to a meditative state WITH ALERTNESS. This can be difficult for some at first, because people like sleeping so to speak, they like distraction and wandering, and oft prefer a kind of subtle lethargy rather than alertness....perseverance is needed to develop the capacity for alertness, focus, and concentration, all three of which provide many benefits besides being able to open into meditation. The state of meditation itself, occurs when one focuses on an activity, sense, or object with such sustained alertness, focus, and concentration that all sense of doership suddenly drops away, even while one is very alert....this state of alert stillness, or non-doing in the midst of the happening of this moment is the entry point to meditation...on deeper levels of meditation, like relative or absolute Samadhi, both the sense of 'doing' and the sense of seperation of observer and observed disappear completely. It happens frequently that we get so absorbed into something that the sense of doing and being a separate observer disappears, but what separates this from meditation, is alertness, consciousness, and intention. And therein is all the difference. Does that answer your Question Max and '.' ? Yes, thanks for the clarification. So put me in the voyeur/peeping tom box. And from your declaration, I guess I shouldn't be here. So, bye. One implication of the point that the methods aren't the meditation is that the meditation might be arrived at by a method not discussed. Think plate spinning. |
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Post by laughter on Sept 12, 2014 10:13:31 GMT -5
Or, alternatively....spend some time in meditation, and have a conversation drawn from experience, rather than conjecture? Your description of a state of meditation doesn't ring a bell over here. And you're making it sound like I can only have a conversation here if I've been in that state. So I guess I'm at a loss for words. The OP was obviously a nonsense. My opinion of the descriptions of the elements of deliberately approaching a mind state with less clutter that resulted from it though, are different from that.  So I'd conclude that engaging with nonsense can sometimes result in something that's not nonsense.  |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2014 10:17:26 GMT -5
Your description of a state of meditation doesn't ring a bell over here. And you're making it sound like I can only have a conversation here if I've been in that state. So I guess I'm at a loss for words. The OP was obviously a nonsense. My opinion of the descriptions of the elements of deliberately approaching a mind state with less clutter that resulted from it though, are different from that. So I'd conclude that engaging with nonsense can sometimes result in something that's not nonsense. Behold the nonsense! |
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Post by laughter on Sept 12, 2014 10:18:11 GMT -5
So regardless of the method, or means of arriving at the experience of a meditative state, the actual experience is the same. One thing to understand, is that meditation is more like a state, than it is a practice. Various practices like sitting ZaZen, or many of the 112 methods in the Vigyan Bhairav Tantra, or in the vedic traditions etc. can lead to meditation, but are not meditation. The way you get up the hill, is not the same as sitting on the hilltop....So be careful not to confuse the legion of methods for arriving at meditation with meditation. There is no 'meditating', only a state of meditation, what most people call 'meditating' is actually a practice for arriving at meditation. Contemplation, sitting ZaZen, breath following, TM, ATA, these are not meditation, they are means to arrive at meditation, and the means have their own benefits besides helping one open into a meditative state. For a method to open into a state of meditation, one needs to apply three things within their method....Increasing Alertness, Increasing Focus, and Increasing Concentration. I say 'increasing' because all three of these; Alertness, Focus, Concentration, have to be exercised and developed over time by repeated and consistent use, like a muscle...with a low capacity for sustained alertness, focus, and concentration, no method or practice used to arrive at meditation will work. You must have or develop the capacity to be alert, focus on a specific action, sense, or object, and be able to concentrate, or hold your focus on your means of getting to a meditative state WITH ALERTNESS. This can be difficult for some at first, because people like sleeping so to speak, they like distraction and wandering, and oft prefer a kind of subtle lethargy rather than alertness....perseverance is needed to develop the capacity for alertness, focus, and concentration, all three of which provide many benefits besides being able to open into meditation. The state of meditation itself, occurs when one focuses on an activity, sense, or object with such sustained alertness, focus, and concentration that all sense of doership suddenly drops away, even while one is very alert....this state of alert stillness, or non-doing in the midst of the happening of this moment is the entry point to meditation...on deeper levels of meditation, like relative or absolute Samadhi, both the sense of 'doing' and the sense of seperation of observer and observed disappear completely. It happens frequently that we get so absorbed into something that the sense of doing and being a separate observer disappears, but what separates this from meditation, is alertness, consciousness, and intention. And therein is all the difference. Does that answer your Question Max and '.' ? Is this meditative state the natural state?  (** swims away **) |
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Post by laughter on Sept 12, 2014 10:19:18 GMT -5
The OP was obviously a nonsense. My opinion of the descriptions of the elements of deliberately approaching a mind state with less clutter that resulted from it though, are different from that. So I'd conclude that engaging with nonsense can sometimes result in something that's not nonsense. Behold the nonsense! All hail the nonsensical quizmodicful confuzolated Oneness thingy! |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2014 10:23:34 GMT -5
All hail the nonsensical quizmodicful confuzolated Oneness thingy! *Bows low and farts loud* |
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Post by laughter on Sept 12, 2014 10:23:45 GMT -5
Is this meditative state the natural state? I can't identify an un-natural state, can you? Which means the question may be misconceived. Whether or not it's misconceived, if you can't identify an unnatural state ... well ... 'nuff said. |
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Post by laughter on Sept 12, 2014 10:25:31 GMT -5
All hail the nonsensical quizmodicful confuzolated Oneness thingy! *Bows low and farts loud* (** quietly looks in a different direction and discreetly fans airflow away from the statue of the birdsh!t Bhudda **) |
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