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Post by enigma on Apr 27, 2017 10:52:55 GMT -5
I always saw UG as overstating much of what he said, maybe for dramatic effect, and I'm not sure he was really trying to be 'clear' about anything, as that was seen as futile from the start. Having said that, his point seems to be that it doesn't make sense to leave home and set out on a journey in search of your home. There no way to take a step in any direction that will get you closer to your destination. He points to what is here, now, most fundamental, unavoidable if only we can stop packing our bags and going over our maps. I don't think it's right to say he truly felt as though we should ignore our longing and go on with our lives, because he talked endlessly about something other than sports and the latest movies. He just didn't want to point to any of the paths leading away from the front door. He refused to show you a map, give you a method, teach you something that you need to know, because he had been lied to and he didn't want to carry on the tradition of lies. There was a time in my own spiritual search when the momentum stopped, and I looked where I was standing for the first time. I didn't lose the longing, just the need to move in order to try to satisfy it. That stillness; that standing in your own living room and noticing what's there, is highly auspicious. To seek while standing still makes no sense unless you have already arrived at your destination and have failed to notice. Part of the problem with UG is that he did follow a path. Perhaps he did 'take', what Ramana offered, but it didn't happen straight away. So in my opinion he looks a bit silly writing off paths and practices given what preceded his event. On the other hand, his clarity when talking about physiology is amazing. To hear him talk, all the path following and teachings were useless and had nothing to do with his 'tragedy', so we can't use the fact of his path following as evidence of his inconsistency. However, it seems likely that the work he did was part of the 'undoing' you mentioned. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2017 10:56:08 GMT -5
That's of no use to anybody. There has to be a method, an approach, a practice. That is my experience and nothing would convince me otherwise. In order to look at where you are standing you have to look. The act of looking is seeking. It is a practice. I'm not entirely averse to practice. As I said, UG tends to overstate. Still, he has a point and I was trying to put that point in perspective. Yes and I do take your point.  |
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Post by enigma on Apr 27, 2017 11:04:23 GMT -5
He is wrong, but he is also right. If he said, you cannot do your way into being, it would be correct. However, it is possible to essentially un-do our way into being, and practices may be part of thus undoing. That's a bit of clever word conjuring. He probly wouldn't use the word, but to me he's talking about purification. |
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Post by Reefs on Apr 27, 2017 11:16:49 GMT -5
Part of the problem with UG is that he did follow a path. Perhaps he did 'take', what Ramana offered, but it didn't happen straight away. So in my opinion he looks a bit silly writing off paths and practices given what preceded his event.
On the other hand, his clarity when talking about physiology is amazing.I think if anyone wants to really understand UG, one has to understand his life story. Basically his entire life was dedicated to the search for enlightenment. He put all his efforts and energy and hopes into this. He literally gave up everything else, his family, wife, children and life - at some point he even ended up homeless in the streets of London. If I remember correctly, his realization happened in his late 40's. So imagine this enormous tension that has been stored in his body. And that tension was suddenly released. He called that the calamity, because it was very painful physically. He's been out of alignment for so long, when the release of resistance happened, his entire body went haywire, accompanied with a lot of woo-woo experiences. It took his body (and UG himself) years to regain balance and start functioning normally again. UG is the only one I've ever heard of who underwent such extreme physical changes. So it's no wonder that his perspective on spirituality is very much focused on differences in physiology. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2017 11:33:33 GMT -5
That's a bit of clever word conjuring. He probly wouldn't use the word, but to me he's talking about purification. I don't have a problem with the purification word as long as it's about undoing and not attaining. |
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Post by enigma on Apr 27, 2017 11:54:29 GMT -5
And that was exactly his message. UG's approach is basically a biological one, that's why he talks so much about the body and the natural functioning of the body, and the natural state. He speaks from that perspective. And if it's true that Ramana told him that there are no levels to it, that you are either there or you are not there at all, then Ramana and UG and Niz are all on the same page. It's a quantum jump, as he called it. And it only doesn't makes sense because mind can only conceive things in a cause and effect manner. UG's message is similar to what Papaji means when he says you are (already) home. Here are some quotes from the UG quotes thread that will illustrate this further: I agree there are no levels of realization. It is a quantum leap. So it suggests that practice won't get you there because practice is framed as something progressive or gradual. You cannot gradually take a quantum leap. That goes against logic. But logic has no place here. It is redundant at the interface between the limited and the unlimited in the same way that physics laws are redundant at the interface between the big bang quantum fluctuation that became material existence and going backwards to the timeless state before it. We don't care if the laws of physics didn't work before big bang. They work now in powering this computer. In the same way we can use the laws of practice, of going back to the source and if the quantum leap happens we don't care anymore about the laws of practice. Actually, the absence of gradation implied by a quantum leap doesn't preclude cause and effect. A quantum leap can still be caused. In the largest context, cause/effect is an illusion, but that doesn't mean you can't fry an egg with enough heat. Likewise, you can fry the mind with enough heat because it's in the same context. I wouldn't say the laws of physics are redundant in the unlimited context, just not applicable. Regardless, that's not why we can't cause SR. We can't do something to make it happen because what's needed is, as Andy says, an undoing. One cannot do an undoing, though one can do clarity, which can lead to an undoing. |
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Post by enigma on Apr 27, 2017 11:59:01 GMT -5
And that was exactly his message. UG's approach is basically a biological one, that's why he talks so much about the body and the natural functioning of the body, and the natural state. He speaks from that perspective. And if it's true that Ramana told him that there are no levels to it, that you are either there or you are not there at all, then Ramana and UG and Niz are all on the same page. It's a quantum jump, as he called it. And it only doesn't makes sense because mind can only conceive things in a cause and effect manner. UG's message is similar to what Papaji means when he says you are (already) home. Here are some quotes from the UG quotes thread that will illustrate this further: Quantum leap is accurate in my opinion also because 'no time' cannot be imagined from a place of being 'in time'. So whatever we imagine it is like, will be quite wrong. Yes, realization is timeless. I guess it can't be imagined, but it can be experienced, or known, or whatever the word is. |
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Post by enigma on Apr 27, 2017 12:04:20 GMT -5
I'm not entirely averse to practice. As I said, UG tends to overstate. Still, he has a point and I was trying to put that point in perspective. Yes and I do take your point. Well aren't we both being all civil and such. Hehe |
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Post by enigma on Apr 27, 2017 12:07:21 GMT -5
He probly wouldn't use the word, but to me he's talking about purification. I don't have a problem with the purification word as long as it's about undoing and not attaining. Yes, undoing. Nothing is gained, much can be lost. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2017 12:32:47 GMT -5
And that was exactly his message. UG's approach is basically a biological one, that's why he talks so much about the body and the natural functioning of the body, and the natural state. He speaks from that perspective. And if it's true that Ramana told him that there are no levels to it, that you are either there or you are not there at all, then Ramana and UG and Niz are all on the same page. It's a quantum jump, as he called it. And it only doesn't makes sense because mind can only conceive things in a cause and effect manner. UG's message is similar to what Papaji means when he says you are (already) home. Here are some quotes from the UG quotes thread that will illustrate this further: Quantum leap is accurate in my opinion also because 'no time' cannot be imagined from a place of being 'in time'. So whatever we imagine it is like, will be quite wrong. Yes, I remember waking up from an general anesthetic which had been administered the moment before. There was no experience, no memory, or no knowing of the timeless interval between those two moments. It very much seemed like a Quantum leap that the mind couldn't account for, except through imagination or inference. |
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Post by tenka on Apr 28, 2017 3:52:45 GMT -5
Quantum leap is accurate in my opinion also because 'no time' cannot be imagined from a place of being 'in time'. So whatever we imagine it is like, will be quite wrong. Yes, I remember waking up from an general anesthetic which had been administered the moment before. There was no experience, no memory, or no knowing of the timeless interval between those two moments. It very much seemed like a Quantum leap that the mind couldn't account for, except through imagination or inference. You don't remember being conscious dat's all .. |
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Post by maxdprophet on Apr 28, 2017 8:14:25 GMT -5
Part of the problem with UG is that he did follow a path. Perhaps he did 'take', what Ramana offered, but it didn't happen straight away. So in my opinion he looks a bit silly writing off paths and practices given what preceded his event.
On the other hand, his clarity when talking about physiology is amazing.I think if anyone wants to really understand UG, one has to understand his life story. Basically his entire life was dedicated to the search for enlightenment. He put all his efforts and energy and hopes into this. He literally gave up everything else, his family, wife, children and life - at some point he even ended up homeless in the streets of London. If I remember correctly, his realization happened in his late 40's. So imagine this enormous tension that has been stored in his body. And that tension was suddenly released. He called that the calamity, because it was very painful physically. He's been out of alignment for so long, when the release of resistance happened, his entire body went haywire, accompanied with a lot of woo-woo experiences. It took his body (and UG himself) years to regain balance and start functioning normally again. UG is the only one I've ever heard of who underwent such extreme physical changes. So it's no wonder that his perspective on spirituality is very much focused on differences in physiology. Does he attribute the search itself as the reason his body got out of whack? |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 28, 2017 11:29:33 GMT -5
Yes, I remember waking up from an general anesthetic which had been administered the moment before. There was no experience, no memory, or no knowing of the timeless interval between those two moments. It very much seemed like a Quantum leap that the mind couldn't account for, except through imagination or inference. You don't remember being conscious dat's all .. Why wouldn't I remember if I was conscious? |
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Post by tenka on Apr 28, 2017 13:20:55 GMT -5
You don't remember being conscious dat's all .. Why wouldn't I remember if I was conscious? Why would you? Everything depends on the moment and where you are at in the moment . What you are is always aware of being of this world / mind / universe unless one is of the realisation itself of what you are beyond it . I have spoken about remembering and forgetting for a while now, it's the filter . What you don't remember or what you do will be in line with where you are at in the moment . |
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Post by Reefs on Apr 28, 2017 20:17:19 GMT -5
Does he attribute the search itself as the reason his body got out of whack? He is attributing it to overthinking in general, which includes the search, of course. Once his body was free from the stranglehold of thought, he says, the cells of his body started 'exploding' (as he put it, tremendous energy set free so to speak) and then his body started functioning freely and spontaneously again. ETA: you can find a description of what happened to him here: www.well.com/~jct/ugbio/ugbio9.htm |
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