The Daily U.G.

[Deleted]

Apr 26, 2017 23:32:16 GMT -5 enigma said:

Apr 26, 2017 21:34:49 GMT -5 satchitananda said:

UG: "this cannot be brought about through any effort of yours; it just happens."

If anyone believes in this nihilism, they might as well pack their bags. There is no point in seeking and practice and therefore there is no point in engaging in spiritual discussion in a forum. There was nothing clear about UG and he never professed to be a teacher. He was cranky though. He was completely at odds with masters such as Niz and Ramana who insisted on practice as well as the teachings of Vedanta itself which specifically offers a route to knowing the Self. UG was an aberration whose cryptic and confused ramblings are attractive to some, but he offered nothing. If anyone thinks there is nothing to do then just live your life. Forget about spirituality.

I always saw UG as overstating much of what he said, maybe for dramatic effect, and I'm not sure he was really trying to be 'clear' about anything, as that was seen as futile from the start.

Having said that, his point seems to be that it doesn't make sense to leave home and set out on a journey in search of your home. There no way to take a step in any direction that will get you closer to your destination. He points to what is here, now, most fundamental, unavoidable if only we can stop packing our bags and going over our maps. I don't think it's right to say he truly felt as though we should ignore our longing and go on with our lives, because he talked endlessly about something other than sports and the latest movies. He just didn't want to point to any of the paths leading away from the front door. He refused to show you a map, give you a method, teach you something that you need to know, because he had been lied to and he didn't want to carry on the tradition of lies.

There was a time in my own spiritual search when the momentum stopped, and I looked where I was standing for the first time. I didn't lose the longing, just the need to move in order to try to satisfy it. That stillness; that standing in your own living room and noticing what's there, is highly auspicious. To seek while standing still makes no sense unless you have already arrived at your destination and have failed to notice.

That's of no use to anybody. There has to be a method, an approach, a practice. That is my experience and nothing would convince me otherwise. In order to look at where you are standing you have to look. The act of looking is seeking. It is a practice.

[Reefs]

Apr 26, 2017 21:34:49 GMT -5 satchitananda said:

UG: "this cannot be brought about through any effort of yours; it just happens."

If anyone believes in this nihilism, they might as well pack their bags. There is no point in seeking and practice and therefore there is no point in engaging in spiritual discussion in a forum. There was nothing clear about UG and he never professed to be a teacher. He was cranky though. He was completely at odds with masters such as Niz and Ramana who insisted on practice as well as the teachings of Vedanta itself which specifically offers a route to knowing the Self. UG was an aberration whose cryptic and confused ramblings are attractive to some, but he offered nothing. If anyone thinks there is nothing to do then just live your life. Forget about spirituality.

And that was exactly his message. UG's approach is basically a biological one, that's why he talks so much about the body and the natural functioning of the body, and the natural state. He speaks from that perspective.

And if it's true that Ramana told him that there are no levels to it, that you are either there or you are not there at all, then Ramana and UG and Niz are all on the same page. It's a quantum jump, as he called it. And it only doesn't makes sense because mind can only conceive things in a cause and effect manner. UG's message is similar to what Papaji means when he says you are (already) home.

Here are some quotes from the UG quotes thread that will illustrate this further:

"This is acausal. It is a quantum jump. It jumps from here to there - you cannot link up these things. You put me on the other side of the river. You want to cross in a boat. That boat is a leaky boat, and you will sink. There is no other bank, and there is no river to cross, no boat - it is very difficult for you to understand that. You have created an image and put the image on the other side. I say "No, for goodness sake, I am on the same bank, there is no river to cross, and no boatman is necessary!"- UG

"Whatever you are doing is blocking its happening. It is misleading to put it that way, because there is nothing to happen. You don't realize that whatever you are doing is a self-centered activity. Whatever you are doing in any direction is only strengthening or distorting the whole thing. The whole of sadhana is self-centered activity - it is very difficult to understand that. The instrument that you are using is born in the field of cause and effect - it cannot conceive of anything happening without cause and effect - that is why that is not the instrument to understand this, and there is no other instrument." - UG

[andrew]

Apr 26, 2017 21:34:49 GMT -5 satchitananda said:

Apr 26, 2017 9:03:20 GMT -5 Reefs said:

Yeah, UG was one of the clearest teachers out there.

UG: "this cannot be brought about through any effort of yours; it just happens."

If anyone believes in this nihilism, they might as well pack their bags. There is no point in seeking and practice and therefore there is no point in engaging in spiritual discussion in a forum. There was nothing clear about UG and he never professed to be a teacher. He was cranky though. He was completely at odds with masters such as Niz and Ramana who insisted on practice as well as the teachings of Vedanta itself which specifically offers a route to knowing the Self. UG was an aberration whose cryptic and confused ramblings are attractive to some, but he offered nothing. If anyone thinks there is nothing to do then just live your life. Forget about spirituality.

He is wrong, but he is also right.

If he said, you cannot do your way into being, it would be correct.

However, it is possible to essentially un-do our way into being, and practices may be part of thus undoing.

[andrew]

Apr 26, 2017 23:32:16 GMT -5 enigma said:

Apr 26, 2017 21:34:49 GMT -5 satchitananda said:

UG: "this cannot be brought about through any effort of yours; it just happens."

If anyone believes in this nihilism, they might as well pack their bags. There is no point in seeking and practice and therefore there is no point in engaging in spiritual discussion in a forum. There was nothing clear about UG and he never professed to be a teacher. He was cranky though. He was completely at odds with masters such as Niz and Ramana who insisted on practice as well as the teachings of Vedanta itself which specifically offers a route to knowing the Self. UG was an aberration whose cryptic and confused ramblings are attractive to some, but he offered nothing. If anyone thinks there is nothing to do then just live your life. Forget about spirituality.

I always saw UG as overstating much of what he said, maybe for dramatic effect, and I'm not sure he was really trying to be 'clear' about anything, as that was seen as futile from the start.

Having said that, his point seems to be that it doesn't make sense to leave home and set out on a journey in search of your home. There no way to take a step in any direction that will get you closer to your destination. He points to what is here, now, most fundamental, unavoidable if only we can stop packing our bags and going over our maps. I don't think it's right to say he truly felt as though we should ignore our longing and go on with our lives, because he talked endlessly about something other than sports and the latest movies. He just didn't want to point to any of the paths leading away from the front door. He refused to show you a map, give you a method, teach you something that you need to know, because he had been lied to and he didn't want to carry on the tradition of lies.

There was a time in my own spiritual search when the momentum stopped, and I looked where I was standing for the first time. I didn't lose the longing, just the need to move in order to try to satisfy it. That stillness; that standing in your own living room and noticing what's there, is highly auspicious. To seek while standing still makes no sense unless you have already arrived at your destination and have failed to notice.

Part of the problem with UG is that he did follow a path. Perhaps he did 'take', what Ramana offered, but it didn't happen straight away. So in my opinion he looks a bit silly writing off paths and practices given what preceded his event.

On the other hand, his clarity when talking about physiology is amazing.

[tenka]

"You must always recognize what you are looking at, otherwise you are not there.

U.G. (part quote of reefs)


This is what I have been saying . If you see the blinkin fridge and you wanna beer, you have to be there in recognition of what is a beer, what you are and what the fridge is .

[Deleted]

Apr 27, 2017 2:06:20 GMT -5 andrew said:

Apr 26, 2017 21:34:49 GMT -5 satchitananda said:

UG: "this cannot be brought about through any effort of yours; it just happens."

If anyone believes in this nihilism, they might as well pack their bags. There is no point in seeking and practice and therefore there is no point in engaging in spiritual discussion in a forum. There was nothing clear about UG and he never professed to be a teacher. He was cranky though. He was completely at odds with masters such as Niz and Ramana who insisted on practice as well as the teachings of Vedanta itself which specifically offers a route to knowing the Self. UG was an aberration whose cryptic and confused ramblings are attractive to some, but he offered nothing. If anyone thinks there is nothing to do then just live your life. Forget about spirituality.

He is wrong, but he is also right.

If he said, you cannot do your way into being, it would be correct.

However, it is possible to essentially un-do our way into being, and practices may be part of thus undoing.

That's a bit of clever word conjuring.

[andrew]

Apr 27, 2017 2:21:31 GMT -5 satchitananda said:

Apr 27, 2017 2:06:20 GMT -5 andrew said:

He is wrong, but he is also right.

If he said, you cannot do your way into being, it would be correct.

However, it is possible to essentially un-do our way into being, and practices may be part of thus undoing.

That's a bit of clever word conjuring.

It wasn't meant to be. I'm saying he makes a valid point but it's not wholly true.

[Deleted]

Apr 27, 2017 1:22:48 GMT -5 Reefs said:

Apr 26, 2017 21:34:49 GMT -5 satchitananda said:

UG: "this cannot be brought about through any effort of yours; it just happens."

If anyone believes in this nihilism, they might as well pack their bags. There is no point in seeking and practice and therefore there is no point in engaging in spiritual discussion in a forum. There was nothing clear about UG and he never professed to be a teacher. He was cranky though. He was completely at odds with masters such as Niz and Ramana who insisted on practice as well as the teachings of Vedanta itself which specifically offers a route to knowing the Self. UG was an aberration whose cryptic and confused ramblings are attractive to some, but he offered nothing. If anyone thinks there is nothing to do then just live your life. Forget about spirituality.

And that was exactly his message. UG's approach is basically a biological one, that's why he talks so much about the body and the natural functioning of the body, and the natural state. He speaks from that perspective.

And if it's true that Ramana told him that there are no levels to it, that you are either there or you are not there at all, then Ramana and UG and Niz are all on the same page. It's a quantum jump, as he called it. And it only doesn't makes sense because mind can only conceive things in a cause and effect manner. UG's message is similar to what Papaji means when he says you are (already) home.

Here are some quotes from the UG quotes thread that will illustrate this further:

"This is acausal. It is a quantum jump. It jumps from here to there - you cannot link up these things. You put me on the other side of the river. You want to cross in a boat. That boat is a leaky boat, and you will sink. There is no other bank, and there is no river to cross, no boat - it is very difficult for you to understand that. You have created an image and put the image on the other side. I say "No, for goodness sake, I am on the same bank, there is no river to cross, and no boatman is necessary!"- UG

"Whatever you are doing is blocking its happening. It is misleading to put it that way, because there is nothing to happen. You don't realize that whatever you are doing is a self-centered activity. Whatever you are doing in any direction is only strengthening or distorting the whole thing. The whole of sadhana is self-centered activity - it is very difficult to understand that. The instrument that you are using is born in the field of cause and effect - it cannot conceive of anything happening without cause and effect - that is why that is not the instrument to understand this, and there is no other instrument." - UG

I agree there are no levels of realization. It is a quantum leap. So it suggests that practice won't get you there because practice is framed as something progressive or gradual. You cannot gradually take a quantum leap. That goes against logic. But logic has no place here. It is redundant at the interface between the limited and the unlimited in the same way that physics laws are redundant at the interface between the big bang quantum fluctuation that became material existence and going backwards to the timeless state before it. We don't care if the laws of physics didn't work before big bang. They work now in powering this computer. In the same way we can use the laws of practice, of going back to the source and if the quantum leap happens we don't care anymore about the laws of practice.

[andrew]

Apr 27, 2017 1:22:48 GMT -5 Reefs said:

Apr 26, 2017 21:34:49 GMT -5 satchitananda said:

UG: "this cannot be brought about through any effort of yours; it just happens."

If anyone believes in this nihilism, they might as well pack their bags. There is no point in seeking and practice and therefore there is no point in engaging in spiritual discussion in a forum. There was nothing clear about UG and he never professed to be a teacher. He was cranky though. He was completely at odds with masters such as Niz and Ramana who insisted on practice as well as the teachings of Vedanta itself which specifically offers a route to knowing the Self. UG was an aberration whose cryptic and confused ramblings are attractive to some, but he offered nothing. If anyone thinks there is nothing to do then just live your life. Forget about spirituality.

And that was exactly his message. UG's approach is basically a biological one, that's why he talks so much about the body and the natural functioning of the body, and the natural state. He speaks from that perspective.

And if it's true that Ramana told him that there are no levels to it, that you are either there or you are not there at all, then Ramana and UG and Niz are all on the same page. It's a quantum jump, as he called it. And it only doesn't makes sense because mind can only conceive things in a cause and effect manner. UG's message is similar to what Papaji means when he says you are (already) home.

Here are some quotes from the UG quotes thread that will illustrate this further:

"This is acausal. It is a quantum jump. It jumps from here to there - you cannot link up these things. You put me on the other side of the river. You want to cross in a boat. That boat is a leaky boat, and you will sink. There is no other bank, and there is no river to cross, no boat - it is very difficult for you to understand that. You have created an image and put the image on the other side. I say "No, for goodness sake, I am on the same bank, there is no river to cross, and no boatman is necessary!"- UG

"Whatever you are doing is blocking its happening. It is misleading to put it that way, because there is nothing to happen. You don't realize that whatever you are doing is a self-centered activity. Whatever you are doing in any direction is only strengthening or distorting the whole thing. The whole of sadhana is self-centered activity - it is very difficult to understand that. The instrument that you are using is born in the field of cause and effect - it cannot conceive of anything happening without cause and effect - that is why that is not the instrument to understand this, and there is no other instrument." - UG

Quantum leap is accurate in my opinion also because 'no time' cannot be imagined from a place of being 'in time'. So whatever we imagine it is like, will be quite wrong.

[andrew]

Apr 27, 2017 2:40:27 GMT -5 satchitananda said:

Apr 27, 2017 1:22:48 GMT -5 Reefs said:

And that was exactly his message. UG's approach is basically a biological one, that's why he talks so much about the body and the natural functioning of the body, and the natural state. He speaks from that perspective.

And if it's true that Ramana told him that there are no levels to it, that you are either there or you are not there at all, then Ramana and UG and Niz are all on the same page. It's a quantum jump, as he called it. And it only doesn't makes sense because mind can only conceive things in a cause and effect manner. UG's message is similar to what Papaji means when he says you are (already) home.

Here are some quotes from the UG quotes thread that will illustrate this further:

I agree there are no levels of realization. It is a quantum leap. So it suggests that practice won't get you there because practice is framed as something progressive or gradual. You cannot gradually take a quantum leap. That goes against logic. But logic has no place here. It is redundant at the interface between the limited and the unlimited in the same way that physics laws are redundant at the interface between the big bang quantum fluctuation that became material existence and going backwards to the timeless state before it. We don't care if the laws of physics didn't work before big bang. They work now in powering this computer. In the same way we can use the laws of practice, of going back to the source and if the quantum leap happens we don't care anymore about the laws of practice.

Yes, for as long as we are 'in time', the laws of practice can be used intelligently to bring us to a point at which a leap can happen.

[someNOTHING!]

Apr 27, 2017 1:03:05 GMT -5 satchitananda said:

Apr 26, 2017 23:32:16 GMT -5 enigma said:

I always saw UG as overstating much of what he said, maybe for dramatic effect, and I'm not sure he was really trying to be 'clear' about anything, as that was seen as futile from the start.

Having said that, his point seems to be that it doesn't make sense to leave home and set out on a journey in search of your home. There no way to take a step in any direction that will get you closer to your destination. He points to what is here, now, most fundamental, unavoidable if only we can stop packing our bags and going over our maps. I don't think it's right to say he truly felt as though we should ignore our longing and go on with our lives, because he talked endlessly about something other than sports and the latest movies. He just didn't want to point to any of the paths leading away from the front door. He refused to show you a map, give you a method, teach you something that you need to know, because he had been lied to and he didn't want to carry on the tradition of lies.

There was a time in my own spiritual search when the momentum stopped, and I looked where I was standing for the first time. I didn't lose the longing, just the need to move in order to try to satisfy it. That stillness; that standing in your own living room and noticing what's there, is highly auspicious. To seek while standing still makes no sense unless you have already arrived at your destination and have failed to notice.

That's of no use to anybody. There has to be a method, an approach, a practice. That is my experience and nothing would convince me otherwise. In order to look at where you are standing you have to look. The act of looking is seeking. It is a practice.

There are often methods that happen, sure. They are often done in the spirit of counter-balancing how screwed up mind-body thinks and feels, just hoping to escape mind altogether <ahem>, looking for truth, or whatever.

You do seem to have a thang against spiritual incorrectness, which indicates attachments to mind-made boat brands (i.e., still carrying them around). Dunno, maybe it's just a cultural conditioning 'er sumthin.

Not trying to convince you of anything. Just saying you might notice that you are setting limits to what, potentially, can be seen. As such, it's a mind thing.

[Deleted]

Apr 27, 2017 8:14:25 GMT -5 someNOTHING! said:

Apr 27, 2017 1:03:05 GMT -5 satchitananda said:

That's of no use to anybody. There has to be a method, an approach, a practice. That is my experience and nothing would convince me otherwise. In order to look at where you are standing you have to look. The act of looking is seeking. It is a practice.

There are often methods that happen, sure. They are often done in the spirit of counter-balancing how screwed up mind-body thinks and feels, just hoping to escape mind altogether <ahem>, looking for truth, or whatever.

You do seem to have a thang against spiritual incorrectness, which indicates attachments to mind-made boat brands (i.e., still carrying them around). Dunno, maybe it's just a cultural conditioning 'er sumthin.

Not trying to convince you of anything. Just saying you might notice that you are setting limits to what, potentially, can be seen. As such, it's a mind thing.

I have a thang for spiritual accuracy and truth because I am the living embodiment of truth.

[someNOTHING!]

Apr 27, 2017 8:53:34 GMT -5 satchitananda said:

Apr 27, 2017 8:14:25 GMT -5 someNOTHING! said:

There are often methods that happen, sure. They are often done in the spirit of counter-balancing how screwed up mind-body thinks and feels, just hoping to escape mind altogether <ahem>, looking for truth, or whatever.

You do seem to have a thang against spiritual incorrectness, which indicates attachments to mind-made boat brands (i.e., still carrying them around). Dunno, maybe it's just a cultural conditioning 'er sumthin.

Not trying to convince you of anything. Just saying you might notice that you are setting limits to what, potentially, can be seen. As such, it's a mind thing.

I have a thang for spiritual accuracy and truth because I am the living embodiment of truth.

With conditional blindspots!

[enigma]

Apr 27, 2017 1:03:05 GMT -5 satchitananda said:

Apr 26, 2017 23:32:16 GMT -5 enigma said:

I always saw UG as overstating much of what he said, maybe for dramatic effect, and I'm not sure he was really trying to be 'clear' about anything, as that was seen as futile from the start.

Having said that, his point seems to be that it doesn't make sense to leave home and set out on a journey in search of your home. There no way to take a step in any direction that will get you closer to your destination. He points to what is here, now, most fundamental, unavoidable if only we can stop packing our bags and going over our maps. I don't think it's right to say he truly felt as though we should ignore our longing and go on with our lives, because he talked endlessly about something other than sports and the latest movies. He just didn't want to point to any of the paths leading away from the front door. He refused to show you a map, give you a method, teach you something that you need to know, because he had been lied to and he didn't want to carry on the tradition of lies.

There was a time in my own spiritual search when the momentum stopped, and I looked where I was standing for the first time. I didn't lose the longing, just the need to move in order to try to satisfy it. That stillness; that standing in your own living room and noticing what's there, is highly auspicious. To seek while standing still makes no sense unless you have already arrived at your destination and have failed to notice.

That's of no use to anybody. There has to be a method, an approach, a practice. That is my experience and nothing would convince me otherwise. In order to look at where you are standing you have to look. The act of looking is seeking. It is a practice.

I'm not entirely averse to practice. As I said, UG tends to overstate. Still, he has a point and I was trying to put that point in perspective.

[enigma]

Apr 27, 2017 2:06:20 GMT -5 andrew said:

Apr 26, 2017 21:34:49 GMT -5 satchitananda said:

UG: "this cannot be brought about through any effort of yours; it just happens."

If anyone believes in this nihilism, they might as well pack their bags. There is no point in seeking and practice and therefore there is no point in engaging in spiritual discussion in a forum. There was nothing clear about UG and he never professed to be a teacher. He was cranky though. He was completely at odds with masters such as Niz and Ramana who insisted on practice as well as the teachings of Vedanta itself which specifically offers a route to knowing the Self. UG was an aberration whose cryptic and confused ramblings are attractive to some, but he offered nothing. If anyone thinks there is nothing to do then just live your life. Forget about spirituality.

He is wrong, but he is also right.

If he said, you cannot do your way into being, it would be correct.

However, it is possible to essentially un-do our way into being, and practices may be part of thus undoing.

That's how I see it as well. The practices are about mind, and the most potentially useful practices are the ones that don't pretend to be about something else.