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Post by Reefs on Apr 28, 2017 20:26:08 GMT -5
Quantum leap is accurate in my opinion also because 'no time' cannot be imagined from a place of being 'in time'. So whatever we imagine it is like, will be quite wrong. Yes, I remember waking up from an general anesthetic which had been administered the moment before. There was no experience, no memory, or no knowing of the timeless interval between those two moments. It very much seemed like a Quantum leap that the mind couldn't account for, except through imagination or inference. The anesthesia argument is an interesting one. Tzu used in order to prove that awareness does come and go, and not the experiencer. |
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Post by tenka on Apr 29, 2017 3:01:48 GMT -5
Yes, I remember waking up from an general anesthetic which had been administered the moment before. There was no experience, no memory, or no knowing of the timeless interval between those two moments. It very much seemed like a Quantum leap that the mind couldn't account for, except through imagination or inference. The anesthesia argument is an interesting one. Tzu used in order to prove that awareness does come and go, and not the experiencer. I think some peeps still believe that what they are that is not physical like the spirit -body, light-body - etheric body, Soul to name a few stay joined at the hip when one is seemingly unconscious . As said many times, most peeps don't remember being conscious while being asleep, there is only conscious awareness the moment one awakens . For peeps like my self that astral woo woo travel while mediating or while sleeping know that while the body lies there looking pretty butt lifeless the awareness of 'you' doing other stuff elsewhere . Some peeps remember when returning to the physical, some peeps don't . |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2017 13:21:44 GMT -5
The anesthesia argument is an interesting one. Tzu used in order to prove that awareness does come and go, and not the experiencer. I think some peeps still believe that what they are that is not physical like the spirit -body, light-body - etheric body, Soul to name a few stay joined at the hip when one is seemingly unconscious . As said many times, most peeps don't remember being conscious while being asleep, there is only conscious awareness the moment one awakens . For peeps like my self that astral woo woo travel while mediating or while sleeping know that while the body lies there looking pretty butt lifeless the awareness of 'you' doing other stuff elsewhere . Some peeps remember when returning to the physical, some peeps don't . Physical as in made of stuff that exists? |
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Post by tenka on Apr 29, 2017 13:31:29 GMT -5
I think some peeps still believe that what they are that is not physical like the spirit -body, light-body - etheric body, Soul to name a few stay joined at the hip when one is seemingly unconscious . As said many times, most peeps don't remember being conscious while being asleep, there is only conscious awareness the moment one awakens . For peeps like my self that astral woo woo travel while mediating or while sleeping know that while the body lies there looking pretty butt lifeless the awareness of 'you' doing other stuff elsewhere . Some peeps remember when returning to the physical, some peeps don't . Physical as in made of stuff that exists? As in returning to the world you lost memory of while you were supposedly unconscious .. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2017 14:27:04 GMT -5
Physical as in made of stuff that exists? As in returning to the world you lost memory of while you were supposedly unconscious .. So the physical is a memory? And I can lose or forget the memory of it? |
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Post by tenka on Apr 29, 2017 14:49:20 GMT -5
As in returning to the world you lost memory of while you were supposedly unconscious .. So the physical is a memory? And I can lose or forget the memory of it? You seem to forget the moment you had no memory of this world when you returned to it . |
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Post by enigma on Apr 30, 2017 21:10:39 GMT -5
Yes, I remember waking up from an general anesthetic which had been administered the moment before. There was no experience, no memory, or no knowing of the timeless interval between those two moments. It very much seemed like a Quantum leap that the mind couldn't account for, except through imagination or inference. You don't remember being conscious dat's all .. He was conscious under anesthesia and just doesn't remember??  |
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Post by tenka on May 1, 2017 3:19:37 GMT -5
You don't remember being conscious dat's all .. He was conscious under anesthesia and just doesn't remember?? There isn't anything on the market that can make you unconscious . Whatever drugs are given to you while entertaining the physical world-mind-body will only create a result where you no longer perceive through the physical eyes . If you are put to sleep then perceiving and functioning by physical means is no longer an option . You need to understand and relate to what you are that experiences the physical, not the actual physical components . When there is an awakening back to the physical reality after sleeping or being put to sleep most don't remember being awake while being asleep . The fact is more so that one was never asleep in the first instance, they were simply not engaging in this world with their physicality . |
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Post by enigma on May 3, 2017 21:40:02 GMT -5
He was conscious under anesthesia and just doesn't remember?? There isn't anything on the market that can make you unconscious . Whatever drugs are given to you while entertaining the physical world-mind-body will only create a result where you no longer perceive through the physical eyes . If you are put to sleep then perceiving and functioning by physical means is no longer an option . You need to understand and relate to what you are that experiences the physical, not the actual physical components . When there is an awakening back to the physical reality after sleeping or being put to sleep most don't remember being awake while being asleep . The fact is more so that one was never asleep in the first instance, they were simply not engaging in this world with their physicality . Okay. |
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Post by Reefs on May 4, 2017 8:05:10 GMT -5
No message to give to the world
UG: I've no message to give to the world. Whatever happens to me is such that you can't share it with the world. That's the reason why I don't get up on a platform or give any lectures - it's not that I can't give lectures; I've lectured everywhere in the world - I've nothing to say. And I don't like to sit in one place, surrounded by people asking set questions. I never initiate any discussions; people come and sit round me - they can do what they like. If somebody asks me a question suddenly, I try to answer, emphasizing and pointing out that there is no answer to that question. So, I merely rephrase, restructure and throw the same question back at you. It's not game playing, because I'm not interested in winning you over to my point of view. It's not a question of offering opinions - of course I do have my opinions on everything from disease to divinity, but they're as worthless as anybody else's.
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Post by Reefs on May 5, 2017 21:39:07 GMT -5
Don't take it literally
UG: What I say you must not take literally. So much trouble has been created by people taking it all literally. You must test every word, every phrase, and see if it bears any relation to the way you are functioning. You must test it, but you are not in a position to accept it - unfortunately this is a fact, take it or leave it. By writing it down, you will do more harm than good. You see, I am in a very difficult position: I cannot help you, whatever I say is misleading.
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Post by Reefs on May 9, 2017 21:47:09 GMT -5
Individuality
UG: Courage is to brush aside everything that man has experienced and felt before you. You are the only one, greater than all those things. Everything is finished, the whole tradition is finished, however sacred and holy it may be - then only can you be yourself - that is individuality. For the first time you become an individual. As long as you depend upon somebody, some authority, you are not an individual. Individual uniqueness cannot express itself as long as there is dependence. You don't have to depend upon any authority; it has an authority of its own. You will never interpret anything, you will never rely on any authority, and yet you won't call yourself 'unique'.
The problem is that even if such a person doesn't talk, his very presence becomes a model for somebody. The fact that somebody sits here from morning till evening -- what can I do about it? Sometimes they go into trances -- they say "How can you deny what is happening to me?" and I say "You may do what you like." How can I convince you that I have nothing more than you have? I don't have anything that you don't have. Your wanting something from somebody is the cause of your misery. The end of illusion is the end of you. So you can't be without illusion; you can only replace one illusion with another illusion.
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Post by Reefs on Mar 25, 2018 11:05:48 GMT -5
What you are looking for does not exist
UG: This state is not in your interest. You are only interested in continuity. You want to continue, probably on a different level, and to function in a different dimension, but you want to continue somehow. You wouldn't touch this with a barge pole. This is going to liquidate what you call "you," all of you -- higher self, lower self, soul, Atman, conscious, subconscious -- all of that. You come to a point, and then you say "I need time." So sadhana comes into the picture, and you say to yourself "Tomorrow I will understand." This structure is born of time and functions in time, but does not come to an end through time. If you don't understand now, you are not going to understand tomorrow. What is there to understand? Why do you want to understand what I am saying? You can't understand what I am saying. It is an exercise in futility on your part to try to relate the description of how I am functioning to the way you are functioning. This is a thing which I cannot communicate. Nor is any communication necessary. No dialogue is possible. When the 'you' is not there, when the question is not there, what is is understanding. You are finished. You'll walk out. You will never listen to anybody describing his state or ask any questions about understanding at all.
What you are looking for does not exist. You would rather tread an enchanted ground with beatific visions of a radical transformation of that non-existent self of yours into a state of being which is conjured up by some bewitching phrases. That takes you away from your natural state -- it is a movement away from yourself. To be yourself requires extraordinary intelligence. You are 'blessed' with that intelligence; nobody need give it to you, nobody can take it away from you. He who lets that express itself in its own way is a natural man.
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Post by laughter on Mar 25, 2018 12:32:13 GMT -5
What you are looking for does not exist
UG: This state is not in your interest. You are only interested in continuity. You want to continue, probably on a different level, and to function in a different dimension, but you want to continue somehow. You wouldn't touch this with a barge pole. This is going to liquidate what you call "you," all of you -- higher self, lower self, soul, Atman, conscious, subconscious -- all of that. You come to a point, and then you say "I need time." So sadhana comes into the picture, and you say to yourself "Tomorrow I will understand." This structure is born of time and functions in time, but does not come to an end through time. If you don't understand now, you are not going to understand tomorrow. What is there to understand? Why do you want to understand what I am saying? You can't understand what I am saying. It is an exercise in futility on your part to try to relate the description of how I am functioning to the way you are functioning. This is a thing which I cannot communicate. Nor is any communication necessary. No dialogue is possible. When the 'you' is not there, when the question is not there, what is is understanding. You are finished. You'll walk out. You will never listen to anybody describing his state or ask any questions about understanding at all. What you are looking for does not exist. You would rather tread an enchanted ground with beatific visions of a radical transformation of that non-existent self of yours into a state of being which is conjured up by some bewitching phrases. That takes you away from your natural state -- it is a movement away from yourself. To be yourself requires extraordinary intelligence. You are 'blessed' with that intelligence; nobody need give it to you, nobody can take it away from you. He who lets that express itself in its own way is a natural man. hmmmm .. sounds alot like another guy from a thousand years before, and what's interesting is that U.G. probably never read him (at least not directly).  Bring to rest the thoughts of the ceaselessly seeking mind, and you will not differ from the patriarch-buddha. Do you want to know the patriarch-buddha? He is none other than you who stand before me listening to my discourse. But because you students lack faith in yourselves, you run around seeking something outside. Even if, through your seeking, you did find something, that something would be nothing more than fancy descriptions in written words; never would you gain the mind of the living patriarch. Make no mistake, worthy Chan men! If you don’t find it here and now, you’ll go on transmigrating through the three realms for myriads of kalpas and thousands of lives, and, held in the clutch of captivating circumstances, be born in the wombs of asses or cows. ... This physical body of yours, composed of the four great elements, can neither expound the dharma nor listen to it; your spleen and stomach, liver and gallbladder can neither expound the dharma nor listen to it; the empty sky can neither expound the dharma nor listen to it. Th en what can expound the dharma and listen to it? This very you standing distinctly before me without any form, shining alone—just this can expound the dharma and listen to it! Understand it this way, and you are not different from the patriarch-buddha. Just never ever allow interruptions, and all that meets your eyes will be right. But, because ‘when feeling arises, wisdom is barred, and when thinking changes, the substance varies,’ people transmigrate through the three realms and undergo all kinds of suffering. As I see it, there are none who are not of the utmost profundity, none who aren’t emancipated. Followers of the Way, mind is without form and pervades the ten directions. In the eye it is called seeing, in the ear it is called hearing. In the nose it smells odors, in the mouth it holds converse. In the hands it grasps and seizes, in the feet it runs and carries. Fundamentally it is one pure radiance; divided it becomes the six harmoniously united spheres of sense. If the mind is void, wherever you are, you are emancipated.What is my purpose in speaking this way? I do so only because you followers of the Way cannot stop your mind from running around everywhere seeking, because you go clambering after the worthless contrivances of the men of old. ... Virtuous monks, just be ordinary. Don’t put on airs. There’re a bunch of shavepates who can’t tell good from bad; they see spirits, they see demons; they point to the east, they point to the west; they like fair weather, they like rain. Th e day will come when such men as these, every one of them, will have to repay their debts in front of Old Yama by swallowing red-hot iron balls. [You] sons and daughters of good families, bewitched by this pack of wild foxes, lose your senses. Blind idiots! Someday you’ll be made to pay up for the vittles you’ve eaten! (from discourse X) Linji, unlike U.G., now, he was no stranger to poetic metaphor.  Notice how RM echoed him all those years later with "destroy the mind"? Perhaps the problem with that isn't necessarily a translation issue. Maybe, instead, it's just that brown bears misinterpret an emptiness pointing and take it out of context: “Sometimes I take away the person but do not take away the surroundings; sometimes I take away the surroundings but do not take away the person; sometimes I take away both person and surroundings; sometimes I take away neither person nor surroundings.” Then a monk asked, “What about ‘to take away the person and not take away the surroundings’?” The master said: "The spring sun comes forth, covering the earth with brocade; A child’s hair hangs down, white as silken strands." The monk asked, “What about ‘to take away the surroundings and not take away the person’?” The master said: "The rule of the sovereign prevails throughout the land; The general has laid to rest the dusts of battle beyond the frontiers." Again the monk asked, “What about ‘to take away both person and surroundings’?” The master said: "No news from Bing and Fen, Isolated and away from everywhere." The monk asked, “What about ‘to take away neither person nor the surroundings’?” The master said: "The sovereign ascends into the jeweled palace; Aged rustics sing songs." In the conditioned consensus trance the mind is mostly full of dead stuff anyway. In contrast, the mind is alive and well as long as the person is absent, or, looked at another way, if there is no divide between the peep, and the world.  At 2nd mountain there is emptiness, and in the void of no-mind, there is no world, but to get there the the battlefield on the 1st has to be abandoned. But it's not the peep that walks off. |
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Post by Reefs on Mar 28, 2018 5:30:01 GMT -5
What you are looking for does not exist
UG: This state is not in your interest. You are only interested in continuity. You want to continue, probably on a different level, and to function in a different dimension, but you want to continue somehow. You wouldn't touch this with a barge pole. This is going to liquidate what you call "you," all of you -- higher self, lower self, soul, Atman, conscious, subconscious -- all of that. You come to a point, and then you say "I need time." So sadhana comes into the picture, and you say to yourself "Tomorrow I will understand." This structure is born of time and functions in time, but does not come to an end through time. If you don't understand now, you are not going to understand tomorrow. What is there to understand? Why do you want to understand what I am saying? You can't understand what I am saying. It is an exercise in futility on your part to try to relate the description of how I am functioning to the way you are functioning. This is a thing which I cannot communicate. Nor is any communication necessary. No dialogue is possible. When the 'you' is not there, when the question is not there, what is is understanding. You are finished. You'll walk out. You will never listen to anybody describing his state or ask any questions about understanding at all. What you are looking for does not exist. You would rather tread an enchanted ground with beatific visions of a radical transformation of that non-existent self of yours into a state of being which is conjured up by some bewitching phrases. That takes you away from your natural state -- it is a movement away from yourself. To be yourself requires extraordinary intelligence. You are 'blessed' with that intelligence; nobody need give it to you, nobody can take it away from you. He who lets that express itself in its own way is a natural man. hmmmm .. sounds alot like another guy from a thousand years before, and what's interesting is that U.G. probably never read him (at least not directly). Bring to rest the thoughts of the ceaselessly seeking mind, and you will not differ from the patriarch-buddha. Do you want to know the patriarch-buddha? He is none other than you who stand before me listening to my discourse. But because you students lack faith in yourselves, you run around seeking something outside. Even if, through your seeking, you did find something, that something would be nothing more than fancy descriptions in written words; never would you gain the mind of the living patriarch. Make no mistake, worthy Chan men! If you don’t find it here and now, you’ll go on transmigrating through the three realms for myriads of kalpas and thousands of lives, and, held in the clutch of captivating circumstances, be born in the wombs of asses or cows. ... This physical body of yours, composed of the four great elements, can neither expound the dharma nor listen to it; your spleen and stomach, liver and gallbladder can neither expound the dharma nor listen to it; the empty sky can neither expound the dharma nor listen to it. Th en what can expound the dharma and listen to it? This very you standing distinctly before me without any form, shining alone—just this can expound the dharma and listen to it! Understand it this way, and you are not different from the patriarch-buddha. Just never ever allow interruptions, and all that meets your eyes will be right. But, because ‘when feeling arises, wisdom is barred, and when thinking changes, the substance varies,’ people transmigrate through the three realms and undergo all kinds of suffering. As I see it, there are none who are not of the utmost profundity, none who aren’t emancipated. Followers of the Way, mind is without form and pervades the ten directions. In the eye it is called seeing, in the ear it is called hearing. In the nose it smells odors, in the mouth it holds converse. In the hands it grasps and seizes, in the feet it runs and carries. Fundamentally it is one pure radiance; divided it becomes the six harmoniously united spheres of sense. If the mind is void, wherever you are, you are emancipated.What is my purpose in speaking this way? I do so only because you followers of the Way cannot stop your mind from running around everywhere seeking, because you go clambering after the worthless contrivances of the men of old. ... Virtuous monks, just be ordinary. Don’t put on airs. There’re a bunch of shavepates who can’t tell good from bad; they see spirits, they see demons; they point to the east, they point to the west; they like fair weather, they like rain. Th e day will come when such men as these, every one of them, will have to repay their debts in front of Old Yama by swallowing red-hot iron balls. [You] sons and daughters of good families, bewitched by this pack of wild foxes, lose your senses. Blind idiots! Someday you’ll be made to pay up for the vittles you’ve eaten! (from discourse X) Linji, unlike U.G., now, he was no stranger to poetic metaphor. Notice how RM echoed him all those years later with "destroy the mind"? Perhaps the problem with that isn't necessarily a translation issue. Maybe, instead, it's just that brown bears misinterpret an emptiness pointing and take it out of context: “Sometimes I take away the person but do not take away the surroundings; sometimes I take away the surroundings but do not take away the person; sometimes I take away both person and surroundings; sometimes I take away neither person nor surroundings.” Then a monk asked, “What about ‘to take away the person and not take away the surroundings’?” The master said: "The spring sun comes forth, covering the earth with brocade; A child’s hair hangs down, white as silken strands." The monk asked, “What about ‘to take away the surroundings and not take away the person’?” The master said: "The rule of the sovereign prevails throughout the land; The general has laid to rest the dusts of battle beyond the frontiers." Again the monk asked, “What about ‘to take away both person and surroundings’?” The master said: "No news from Bing and Fen, Isolated and away from everywhere." The monk asked, “What about ‘to take away neither person nor the surroundings’?” The master said: "The sovereign ascends into the jeweled palace; Aged rustics sing songs." In the conditioned consensus trance the mind is mostly full of dead stuff anyway. In contrast, the mind is alive and well as long as the person is absent, or, looked at another way, if there is no divide between the peep, and the world. At 2nd mountain there is emptiness, and in the void of no-mind, there is no world, but to get there the the battlefield on the 1st has to be abandoned. But it's not the peep that walks off. The Zen of UG, hehe. |
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Notice how RM echoed him all those years later with "destroy the mind"? Perhaps the problem with that isn't necessarily a translation issue. Maybe, instead, it's just that brown bears misinterpret an emptiness pointing and take it out of context:
At 2nd mountain there is emptiness, and in the void of no-mind, there is no world, but to get there the the battlefield on the 1st has to be abandoned. But it's not the peep that walks off.