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Post by zazeniac on Jun 25, 2024 12:31:30 GMT -5
It helps to understand the difference between correlated and causal. Good point, but it's a potential indicator of a cause. I don't like these kinds of debates. Causal vs acausal, choice vs predetermination. I think they're dead ends. For the most part I avoid them, because they are a thinkers kind of heroine. |
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Post by laughter on Jun 25, 2024 12:54:22 GMT -5
I agree about fools being too full of themselves to really even recognize their own folly. When they do, it's usually a big turning point, and their own shenanigans fall into clearer focus. Not many are willing to own it, and the hide-and-seek game continues. Nonsense shouldn't do it for anyone. Let me explain. You can't say discussions are "better" and in the same breath say SR is acausal. Better for what? That's my definition of nonsense. Systems of value.  There's a reason they call it the "Diamond Sutra" and not the "Sandstone Sutra". But those rocks they put on the gold bands. Why are they so damned expensive?  |
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Post by laughter on Jun 25, 2024 12:59:12 GMT -5
Acausal means unpredictable. Then we've NEVER been on the same page. No, it doesn't. acausal: Not arising from causation or arising from a cause. A quantum event is acausal, that's why quantum physics is so bizarre. Nobody, after over 100 years, knows what's going on in a quantum event. Neither random nor predetermined. An absence of cause, which is not meant to imply chaos. Any thought past the notion of absence is a fractal recurrence in a subconscious process. |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Jun 25, 2024 13:03:13 GMT -5
Then we've NEVER been on the same page. No, it doesn't. acausal: Not arising from causation or arising from a cause. A quantum event is acausal, that's why quantum physics is so bizarre. Nobody, after over 100 years, knows what's going on in a quantum event. Neither random nor predetermined. An absence of cause, which is not meant to imply chaos. Any thought past the notion of absence is a fractal recurrence in a subconscious process. Yes. Quantum physics is the most proven physics in existence. The random-probability turns out to be very consistent, but they don't know why. |
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Post by laughter on Jun 25, 2024 13:14:41 GMT -5
Why not? SR is acausal, but it's also highly correlated with certain activities. I see no contradiction there. Geologists have a gadget that breaks rocks. A rock is placed into a double hydraulic vise and gradually put under force until the rock breaks in half. The force required to break a rock is unknown prior to exerting pressure, but at some point the force becomes great enough that the rock suddenly cracks apart. Mathematicians call that a "discontinuous event." SR appears to be similar to that. Satch meditated for 30 years and suddenly one day he had a huge realization. Was that "right out of the blue" or did 30 years of meditation help trigger it? People who continually shift attention away from thoughts to "what is" seem far more likely to penetrate the concensus paradigm than people who spend all of their time thinking ABOUT "what is." Just my two cent. TIFWIW. So the force (pressure) doesn't cause the crack? Yeah tensile strength is hard to predict for assymetrical, non-uniform materials, but we know it's some force that causes the failure. SR happens out of the blue, but people who "shift attention away from thoughts" are "far more likely" to have this happen out of the blue? Am I missing the logical consistency here. I agree that thinking about SR is actually self defeating, but that again implies cause and effect. And believe I'm the last person to say that it is or isn't causal. That would imply that the peace that surpasses understanding is understandable. I'm just tired of idiots, not you, trying to whack me into enlightenment by calling me a fool because I choose to practice. As to satch's SR or anyone else's, I take all such claims with a grain of salt. It seems everybody and their mother is nowadays. Next thing you know even Laffy will make the claim and that's a preposterous as Trump weighing 215 lbs. The architecture and dynamics of the false sense of identity can be described in a detail that is so intricate as to implicate several disciplines of which no man is a complete master. The complexity is ultimately no matter though. The big picture of it is clear enough, and so doesn't take a genius to understand. But whether one's understanding of this machine is superficial, or on levels that require years of study and practice, it is an intellectual and perhaps emotional understanding. The realization is completely sideways to any of that. All that said, it's easy to use the mind-based understanding to discern that there are some scenario's that re-enforce, oil, maintain and extend the durability and lifespan/cycle of the machine: weapons of mass distraction, on one hand, and dogmatic trances that focus attention, on the other. Always the biological imperative at the core. As to meditation, there's nothing foolish about it. Even someone who chooses to meditate with the belief that it might one day lead to SR. Is their practice just another module in the machine? That's just one of the myriad expressions of the existential question right there. Sometimes, in some instances, there might even be a clear, relative, material answer of "yes", but that would be entirely subjective, as in, entirely individualized, and something an observer could only really guess at. |
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Post by laughter on Jun 25, 2024 13:19:43 GMT -5
As to satch's SR or anyone else's, I take all such claims with a grain of salt. It seems everybody and their mother is nowadays. Next thing you know even Laffy will make the claim and that's a preposterous as Trump weighing 215 lbs.  |
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Post by laughter on Jun 25, 2024 13:42:22 GMT -5
Neither random nor predetermined. An absence of cause, which is not meant to imply chaos. Any thought past the notion of absence is a fractal recurrence in a subconscious process. Yes. Quantum physics is the most proven physics in existence. The random-probability turns out to be very consistent, but they don't know why. And they never really will, because, you, are not a machine. That's not to dismiss the physical world, nor to discount future discovery. |
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Post by someNOTHING! on Jun 25, 2024 14:04:41 GMT -5
I agree about fools being too full of themselves to really even recognize their own folly. When they do, it's usually a big turning point, and their own shenanigans fall into clearer focus. Not many are willing to own it, and the hide-and-seek game continues. Nonsense shouldn't do it for anyone. Let me explain. You can't say discussions are "better" and in the same breath say SR is acausal. Better for what? That's my definition of nonsense. All kinds of things happen and are said in the relative world, which involve labels for things distinguished, adjectives for degrees of quality/quantity, etc. Language is fundamentally dualistic. Everything in the appearing relative world (in time, which is requires memory), appears in a sequence, and over time, we assign cause-effect relationships or correlations. That's all one end of the twigs that make up the tips of the metaphorical/existential tree of life. What of the other end? Does this sound like nonsense? I can drop it if you prefer. |
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Post by someNOTHING! on Jun 25, 2024 14:26:51 GMT -5
I'm just tired of idiots, not you, trying to whack me into enlightenment by calling me a fool because I choose to practice. As to satch's SR or anyone else's, I take all such claims with a grain of salt. It seems everybody and their mother is nowadays. Next thing you know even Laffy will make the claim and that's a preposterous as Trump weighing 215 lbs. I happen to have an extremely soft soft spot for the fool archetype. I mean, at least I hope so. Mind-identified, I was an extremely foolish chap between puberty and my late 20s/early 30s throughout my search, doing all sorts of nonsense. Now, I'm less foolish, but still prone to bouts of non-exquisite, divine tragio-comedy, if ya know what I mean.  For the record, if I am the idiot you're referring to, my reply to ZD was not about you. It was in reference to the idea that the mind is always the last one to get the memo, and that is pretty much universal and how wisdom grows. As a zazenner, I think you would understand and be open to that. No worries if you do think so. Having been misunderstood on many levels, I can take it. Just ask Andrew. <<Takes a look around the room to see who else may have not been quite as honest>>  |
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Post by zazeniac on Jun 25, 2024 15:19:49 GMT -5
So the force (pressure) doesn't cause the crack? Yeah tensile strength is hard to predict for assymetrical, non-uniform materials, but we know it's some force that causes the failure. SR happens out of the blue, but people who "shift attention away from thoughts" are "far more likely" to have this happen out of the blue? Am I missing the logical consistency here. I agree that thinking about SR is actually self defeating, but that again implies cause and effect. And believe I'm the last person to say that it is or isn't causal. That would imply that the peace that surpasses understanding is understandable. I'm just tired of idiots, not you, trying to whack me into enlightenment by calling me a fool because I choose to practice. As to satch's SR or anyone else's, I take all such claims with a grain of salt. It seems everybody and their mother is nowadays. Next thing you know even Laffy will make the claim and that's a preposterous as Trump weighing 215 lbs. The architecture and dynamics of the false sense of identity can be described in a detail that is so intricate as to implicate several disciplines of which no man is a complete master. The complexity is ultimately no matter though. The big picture of it is clear enough, and so doesn't take a genius to understand. But whether one's understanding of this machine is superficial, or on levels that require years of study and practice, it is an intellectual and perhaps emotional understanding. The realization is completely sideways to any of that. All that said, it's easy to use the mind-based understanding to discern that there are some scenario's that re-enforce, oil, maintain and extend the durability and lifespan/cycle of the machine: weapons of mass distraction, on one hand, and dogmatic trances that focus attention, on the other. Always the biological imperative at the core. As to meditation, there's nothing foolish about it. Even someone who chooses to meditate with the belief that it might one day lead to SR. Is their practice just another module in the machine? That's just one of the myriad expressions of the existential question right there. Sometimes, in some instances, there might even be a clear, relative, material answer of "yes", but that would be entirely subjective, as in, entirely individualized, and something an observer could only really guess at. Ahhh, the false sense of self!! This is the problem with remote communication. Never considered whether I'm a machine. I did read "The Naked Ape" and heartily embrace my "apeness. " You know I disagree with everything you write, even the punctuation, but I'm tired of arguing, otherwise I'd dispute everything, point by point, with the most beautiful arguments you can possibly imagine. You should see my hand gestures as I think this through. They are also beautiful. Are you trembling? Btw, I don't care what folks say about meditation or practice. I will get angry if you call me a fool, a donkey, flawfull etc. But that's pretty much true for every single person here. Wait!!! There are no persons here. Why doubt is in fact sacred. It keeps us honest. You know I discuss in my head, every day what's the use of being here. I'd like to feel free to discuss how I practice or others, but noone feels free having those kinds of discussions without being pounced on. Yeah, you'll beat your chest and tell me how tough you are and how if what you thought were true, you'd be able to take it. You guys are tough! I'm not. Plus, I'm tired. You know I'm with RobertK. I'm pretty much done. This really goes nowhere for me. So ask me "who's feeling tired" and ...itiffrd7dduxxuxyxyxxyyxxyxyxyxhxvjivucyxyddsysduxuxhxuxhxxuxuxucucjcjcjcjcjcjcjcdtsrars!!!+ |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Jun 25, 2024 16:08:04 GMT -5
The architecture and dynamics of the false sense of identity can be described in a detail that is so intricate as to implicate several disciplines of which no man is a complete master. The complexity is ultimately no matter though. The big picture of it is clear enough, and so doesn't take a genius to understand. But whether one's understanding of this machine is superficial, or on levels that require years of study and practice, it is an intellectual and perhaps emotional understanding. The realization is completely sideways to any of that. All that said, it's easy to use the mind-based understanding to discern that there are some scenario's that re-enforce, oil, maintain and extend the durability and lifespan/cycle of the machine: weapons of mass distraction, on one hand, and dogmatic trances that focus attention, on the other. Always the biological imperative at the core. As to meditation, there's nothing foolish about it. Even someone who chooses to meditate with the belief that it might one day lead to SR. Is their practice just another module in the machine? That's just one of the myriad expressions of the existential question right there. Sometimes, in some instances, there might even be a clear, relative, material answer of "yes", but that would be entirely subjective, as in, entirely individualized, and something an observer could only really guess at. Ahhh, the false sense of self!! This is the problem with remote communication. Never considered whether I'm a machine. I did read "The Naked Ape" and heartily embrace my "apeness. " You know I disagree with everything you write, even the punctuation, but I'm tired of arguing, otherwise I'd dispute everything, point by point, with the most beautiful arguments you can possibly imagine. You should see my hand gestures as I think this through. They are also beautiful. Are you trembling? Btw, I don't care what folks say about meditation or practice. I will get angry if you call me a fool, a donkey, flawfull etc. But that's pretty much true for every single person here. Wait!!! There are no persons here. Why doubt is in fact sacred. It keeps us honest. You know I discuss in my head, every day what's the use of being here. I'd like to feel free to discuss how I practice or others, but noone feels free having those kinds of discussions without being pounced on. Yeah, you'll beat your chest and tell me how tough you are and how if what you thought were true, you'd be able to take it. You guys are tough! I'm not. Plus, I'm tired. You know I'm with RobertK. I'm pretty much done. This really goes nowhere for me. So ask me "who's feeling tired" and ...itiffrd7dduxxuxyxyxxyyxxyxyxyxhxvjivucyxyddsysduxuxhxuxhxxuxuxucucjcjcjcjcjcjcjcdtsrars!!!+ I caught this 32 minutes late, I was writing a story-reply to sN. At first I was going to say this reply is mostly for laughter, until I read through to the end. I will talk practice any time you wish. We can even do a closed thread, only sdp and zazeniac. Or not. Practice is like a dotted line. . . . . . .. . . ... . . . ... . . . Eventually it becomes...__.. ...___ ...____. . ___. . . .. .. ..______ ..____. ____.___..____________________ Eventually it's possible to practice continually. Through the principle of simultaneity it's possible to practice at all times, eventually, it takes this. Now, for laughter. I guess you have noticed I have never taken the 'you are not a machine' bait. Today in a post I think you have acknowledged the conditioning is the machine. The so-called SVP is, yes, imaginary, but imaginary only in one sense. It exists as the self-conditioning. So in a sense it is imaginary, but in another sense it is very real, it steals our life, or the lives of most people. I've tried to have this dialogue, for years, here, ZD rejects it completely, he continually says the self is imaginary. Back to zazeniac. Practice is like a drop of water into a 2 gallon bucket. But the bucket is rusty, has holes. "Purification" is about sealing the holes. But in any case the drip, drip, drip, filling the bucket, with practice, is gradual "enlightenment". Then, one day the bucket overflows, that is sudden "enlightenment". Gradual enlightenment and sudden enlightenment are not two different things. That's slightly more than a metaphor. But ~you~ have to discern what's imaginary and what's not. Actual practice (not imaginary practice) is not imaginary. It may be the only thing you can know, for a long time, that ~you~ can be sure is not imaginary. |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Jun 25, 2024 16:22:29 GMT -5
I'm just tired of idiots, not you, trying to whack me into enlightenment by calling me a fool because I choose to practice. As to satch's SR or anyone else's, I take all such claims with a grain of salt. It seems everybody and their mother is nowadays. Next thing you know even Laffy will make the claim and that's a preposterous as Trump weighing 215 lbs. I happen to have an extremely soft soft spot for the fool archetype. I mean, at least I hope so. Mind-identified, I was an extremely foolish chap between puberty and my late 20s/early 30s throughout my search, doing all sorts of nonsense. Now, I'm less foolish, but still prone to bouts of non-exquisite, divine tragio-comedy, if ya know what I mean. For the record, if I am the idiot you're referring to, my reply to ZD was not about you. It was in reference to the idea that the mind is always the last one to get the memo, and that is pretty much universal and how wisdom grows. As a zazenner, I think you would understand and be open to that. No worries if you do think so. Having been misunderstood on many levels, I can take it. Just ask Andrew. <<Takes a look around the room to see who else may have not been quite as honest>> "Even God is Idiot". Gurdjieff |
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Post by laughter on Jun 25, 2024 16:44:10 GMT -5
The architecture and dynamics of the false sense of identity can be described in a detail that is so intricate as to implicate several disciplines of which no man is a complete master. The complexity is ultimately no matter though. The big picture of it is clear enough, and so doesn't take a genius to understand. But whether one's understanding of this machine is superficial, or on levels that require years of study and practice, it is an intellectual and perhaps emotional understanding. The realization is completely sideways to any of that. All that said, it's easy to use the mind-based understanding to discern that there are some scenario's that re-enforce, oil, maintain and extend the durability and lifespan/cycle of the machine: weapons of mass distraction, on one hand, and dogmatic trances that focus attention, on the other. Always the biological imperative at the core. As to meditation, there's nothing foolish about it. Even someone who chooses to meditate with the belief that it might one day lead to SR. Is their practice just another module in the machine? That's just one of the myriad expressions of the existential question right there. Sometimes, in some instances, there might even be a clear, relative, material answer of "yes", but that would be entirely subjective, as in, entirely individualized, and something an observer could only really guess at. Ahhh, the false sense of self!! This is the problem with remote communication. Never considered whether I'm a machine. I did read "The Naked Ape" and heartily embrace my "apeness. " You know I disagree with everything you write, even the punctuation, but I'm tired of arguing, otherwise I'd dispute everything, point by point, with the most beautiful arguments you can possibly imagine. You should see my hand gestures as I think this through. They are also beautiful. Are you trembling? Btw, I don't care what folks say about meditation or practice. I will get angry if you call me a fool, a donkey, flawfull etc. But that's pretty much true for every single person here. Wait!!! There are no persons here. Why doubt is in fact sacred. It keeps us honest. You know I discuss in my head, every day what's the use of being here. I'd like to feel free to discuss how I practice or others, but noone feels free having those kinds of discussions without being pounced on. Yeah, you'll beat your chest and tell me how tough you are and how if what you thought were true, you'd be able to take it. You guys are tough! I'm not. Plus, I'm tired. You know I'm with RobertK. I'm pretty much done. This really goes nowhere for me. So ask me "who's feeling tired" and ...itiffrd7dduxxuxyxyxxyyxxyxyxyxhxvjivucyxyddsysduxuxhxuxhxxuxuxucucjcjcjcjcjcjcjcdtsrars!!!+ I write about meditation here sometimes. Can't relate to the questioning about why to post or read on this site. I've always alternated between being a reactive leaf shed from a toxic tree blowin' in the wind and a harmonium, and that's unlikely to ever change. The "false sense of self" is to differentiate that machine from any other machine, and any interest in cause and effect is an interest in a machine.  |
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Post by laughter on Jun 25, 2024 17:05:03 GMT -5
Ahhh, the false sense of self!! This is the problem with remote communication. Never considered whether I'm a machine. I did read "The Naked Ape" and heartily embrace my "apeness. " You know I disagree with everything you write, even the punctuation, but I'm tired of arguing, otherwise I'd dispute everything, point by point, with the most beautiful arguments you can possibly imagine. You should see my hand gestures as I think this through. They are also beautiful. Are you trembling? Btw, I don't care what folks say about meditation or practice. I will get angry if you call me a fool, a donkey, flawfull etc. But that's pretty much true for every single person here. Wait!!! There are no persons here. Why doubt is in fact sacred. It keeps us honest. You know I discuss in my head, every day what's the use of being here. I'd like to feel free to discuss how I practice or others, but noone feels free having those kinds of discussions without being pounced on. Yeah, you'll beat your chest and tell me how tough you are and how if what you thought were true, you'd be able to take it. You guys are tough! I'm not. Plus, I'm tired. You know I'm with RobertK. I'm pretty much done. This really goes nowhere for me. So ask me "who's feeling tired" and ...itiffrd7dduxxuxyxyxxyyxxyxyxyxhxvjivucyxyddsysduxuxhxuxhxxuxuxucucjcjcjcjcjcjcjcdtsrars!!!+ I caught this 32 minutes late, I was writing a story-reply to sN. At first I was going to say this reply is mostly for laughter, until I read through to the end. I will talk practice any time you wish. We can even do a closed thread, only sdp and zazeniac. Or not. Practice is like a dotted line. . . . . . .. . . ... . . . ... . . . Eventually it becomes...__.. ...___ ...____. . ___. . . .. .. ..______ ..____. ____.___..____________________ Eventually it's possible to practice continually. Through the principle of simultaneity it's possible to practice at all times, eventually, it takes this. Now, for laughter. I guess you have noticed I have never taken the 'you are not a machine' bait. Today in a post I think you have acknowledged the conditioning is the machine. The so-called SVP is, yes, imaginary, but imaginary only in one sense. It exists as the self-conditioning. So in a sense it is imaginary, but in another sense it is very real, it steals our life, or the lives of most people. I've tried to have this dialogue, for years, here, ZD rejects it completely, he continually says the self is imaginary. Back to zazeniac. Practice is like a drop of water into a 2 gallon bucket. But the bucket is rusty, has holes. "Purification" is about sealing the holes. But in any case the drip, drip, drip, filling the bucket, with practice, is gradual "enlightenment". Then, one day the bucket overflows, that is sudden "enlightenment". Gradual enlightenment and sudden enlightenment are not two different things. That's slightly more than a metaphor. But ~you~ have to discern what's imaginary and what's not. Actual practice (not imaginary practice) is not imaginary. It may be the only thing you can know, for a long time, that ~you~ can be sure is not imaginary. Recognizing an interest in the machine for what it is, is enough. Using that machine metaphor to draw conclusions about "real" and "imaginary", and thieves and what they have stolen (and where did they hide the loot, anyways?), is just the machine run amok. |
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Post by someNOTHING! on Jun 25, 2024 18:22:48 GMT -5
I happen to have an extremely soft soft spot for the fool archetype. I mean, at least I hope so. Mind-identified, I was an extremely foolish chap between puberty and my late 20s/early 30s throughout my search, doing all sorts of nonsense. Now, I'm less foolish, but still prone to bouts of non-exquisite, divine tragio-comedy, if ya know what I mean. For the record, if I am the idiot you're referring to, my reply to ZD was not about you. It was in reference to the idea that the mind is always the last one to get the memo, and that is pretty much universal and how wisdom grows. As a zazenner, I think you would understand and be open to that. No worries if you do think so. Having been misunderstood on many levels, I can take it. Just ask Andrew. <<Takes a look around the room to see who else may have not been quite as honest>> "Even God is Idiot". Gurdjieff Great! Starting to like this Gurdgy character more and more! I'd be interested to see the Idiot Typology if there is one. I bet I'm all over the spectrum!  |
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There's a reason they call it the "Diamond Sutra" and not the "Sandstone Sutra". But those rocks they put on the gold bands. Why are they so damned expensive? 
