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Post by Deleted on Nov 14, 2013 11:52:06 GMT -5
I have no disagreement with the implication that cults are harmful in that context. I'd say some folks are highly susceptible to having the right carrots dangled in front of them, and one way to avoid such a situation is to 'sell' the truth instead, which nobody finds particularly tasty. You keep saying this in various ways, and it's one of the main aspects of your 'story' that does not align with mine.  What's 'tastier' than the promise of lightening the load completely.....of dropping ALL baggage. What's 'tastier' than coming to see that there is no ultimate 'truth'.....no solid place to hang a hat...that nothing needs to be done, sought after, achieved or fought for? That I need not DO anything or Be any thing in particular.....but that just 'being' itself is enough? In terms of carrots (tasty promises) doesn't that one top them all? It seems like in the short term, it's not tasty, but in the long run it's delectable. Disillusionment is not typically a nice experience because there's a loss of comfort and security with knowing something as you thought it was. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 14, 2013 12:12:28 GMT -5
You keep saying this in various ways, and it's one of the main aspects of your 'story' that does not align with mine. What's 'tastier' than the promise of lightening the load completely.....of dropping ALL baggage. What's 'tastier' than coming to see that there is no ultimate 'truth'.....no solid place to hang a hat...that nothing needs to be done, sought after, achieved or fought for? That I need not DO anything or Be any thing in particular.....but that just 'being' itself is enough? In terms of carrots (tasty promises) doesn't that one top them all? It seems like in the short term, it's not tasty, but in the long run it's delectable. Disillusionment is not typically a nice experience because there's a loss of comfort and security with knowing something as you thought it was. I think it can go both ways. Is it really so painful or uncomfy to let go of a previously held to belief if that belief itself was/is the anchor to pain? The majority of my own 'letting go' happened on the heels of emotional pain. I'd been clinging to beliefs about what I needed in order for Peace to prevail. When I saw through those beliefs and they fell away, the Peace I sought, came rushing in. There was no loss of comfort in the seeing through of those beliefs that had been holding me hostage, but rather, quite the opposite. The discomfort came from holding to those beliefs/needs that had been keeping me bound...not in their falling away. At the most intense point of emotional pain, the idea that perhaps those needs and beliefs responsible for the pain could somehow fall away, was enticing beyond anything else I could have imagined. |
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Post by silver on Nov 14, 2013 12:14:33 GMT -5
It seems like in the short term, it's not tasty, but in the long run it's delectable. Disillusionment is not typically a nice experience because there's a loss of comfort and security with knowing something as you thought it was. I think it can go both ways. Is it really so painful or uncomfy to let go of a previously held to belief if that belief itself was/is the anchor to pain? The majority of my own 'letting go' happened on the heels of emotional pain. I'd been clinging to beliefs about what I needed in order for Peace to prevail. When I saw through those beliefs and they fell away, the Peace I sought, came rushing in. There was no loss of comfort in the seeing through of those beliefs that had been holding me hostage, but rather, quite the opposite. The discomfort came from holding to those beliefs/needs that had been keeping me bound...not in their falling away. At the most intense point of emotional pain, the idea that perhaps those needs and beliefs responsible for the pain could somehow fall away, was enticing beyond anything else I could have imagined. Heya figs, that's exactly what's been happening within the past week or so with me....completely rez with what you're sayin' here. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 14, 2013 12:22:24 GMT -5
It seems like in the short term, it's not tasty, but in the long run it's delectable. Disillusionment is not typically a nice experience because there's a loss of comfort and security with knowing something as you thought it was. I think it can go both ways. Is it really so painful or uncomfy to let go of a previously held to belief if that belief itself was/is the anchor to pain? The majority of my own 'letting go' happened on the heels of emotional pain. I'd been clinging to beliefs about what I needed in order for Peace to prevail. When I saw through those beliefs and they fell away, the Peace I sought, came rushing in. There was no loss of comfort in the seeing through of those beliefs that had been holding me hostage, but rather, quite the opposite. The discomfort came from holding to those beliefs/needs that had been keeping me bound...not in their falling away. At the most intense point of emotional pain, the idea that perhaps those needs and beliefs responsible for the pain could somehow fall away, was enticing beyond anything else I could have imagined. Turning towards discomfort and fear and emotional pain may be that very process of disillusionment. The relief at the loss of those feelings may be the other side. I don't think it's necessarily intuitive for one to strip down and expose themselves to that which is painful. Perhaps wisdom is the case where one knows that this is the way beyond pain. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 14, 2013 12:30:12 GMT -5
Turning towards discomfort and fear and emotional pain may be that very process of disillusionment. I'm not sure what you mean here by 'turning towards' discomfort and emotional pain. Do you mean the willingness to look into it and the seeing of the beliefs/needs behind it? In my examples above, there was not so much a turning towards the pain as there was just a strong desire for the pain to end...of course this was coupled with a clear seeing of the thoughts behind the painful emotions. Indeed, there is profound relief on the other side, but even prior to that loss, there was a desire to be rid of those needs and beliefs. The idea that they 'could' fall away was very much 'a carrot' and one that beckoned me forward to the actuality of the loss. Yes. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 14, 2013 13:43:28 GMT -5
Turning towards discomfort and fear and emotional pain may be that very process of disillusionment. I'm not sure what you mean here by 'turning towards' discomfort and emotional pain. Do you mean the willingness to look into it and the seeing of the beliefs/needs behind it? More simple than that. Rather than avoiding the emotional pain and feelings of discomfort, an intentional attending to it. Consciously investigating what it really feels like yada yada. To be honest, I don't have a lot of experience seeing the beliefs and needs behind discomfort. All I know is that if I 'sit with it' it goes away or changes in some way. It's more like just witnessing impermanence. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 14, 2013 14:07:58 GMT -5
I'm not sure what you mean here by 'turning towards' discomfort and emotional pain. Do you mean the willingness to look into it and the seeing of the beliefs/needs behind it? More simple than that. Rather than avoiding the emotional pain and feelings of discomfort, an intentional attending to it. Consciously investigating what it really feels like yada yada. To be honest, I don't have a lot of experience seeing the beliefs and needs behind discomfort. All I know is that if I 'sit with it' it goes away or changes in some way. It's more like just witnessing impermanence. Ah I see. Thanks. Yeah, I'd say that the present need that's the foundation of the pain becomes readily apparent from that position of 'sitting with' the pain....but then again, that might just be my experience.  For me, the strong desire to be without pain came first, then the surrender to it, and then the clear seeing of the precise thoughts/beliefs/needs that were at its foundation....and then the falling away of those. But I would say it was at the 'strong desire' point where 'an absence' or falling away began to look pretty "carrotty".  |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 14, 2013 14:51:05 GMT -5
More simple than that. Rather than avoiding the emotional pain and feelings of discomfort, an intentional attending to it. Consciously investigating what it really feels like yada yada. To be honest, I don't have a lot of experience seeing the beliefs and needs behind discomfort. All I know is that if I 'sit with it' it goes away or changes in some way. It's more like just witnessing impermanence. Ah I see. Thanks. Yeah, I'd say that the present need that's the foundation of the pain becomes readily apparent from that position of 'sitting with' the pain....but then again, that might just be my experience. For me, the strong desire to be without pain came first, then the surrender to it, and then the clear seeing of the precise thoughts/beliefs/needs that were at its foundation....and then the falling away of those. But I would say it was at the 'strong desire' point where 'an absence' or falling away began to look pretty "carrotty". I used to do a lot of Insight Meditation. I was always envious of the folks that would report these profound insights that happened as a result of the same exact practice I was doing. I never had any insight it seemed. I did get equanimity up the wazoo though, so that's sumthin. Methinks it's a kind of intelligence, being able to report on experience. When I play sports I also have an abyssimal ability to report on the moment by moment proceedings of a play that happened. I just play. But I see the value in that intelligence/skill. There's much to be learned from it. And my value as an athlete is hindered by not being able to do this. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 14, 2013 15:27:09 GMT -5
I used to do a lot of Insight Meditation. I was always envious of the folks that would report these profound insights that happened as a result of the same exact practice I was doing. I never had any insight it seemed. I did get equanimity up the wazoo though, so that's sumthin. Yes...somethin indeed!...hehe....specially if it's 'up the wazoo'.  Hmmm.....Some things I really have not considered.... evidently some assumptions in play on my part.....an interesting angle to ponder.....  |
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Post by lolly on Nov 15, 2013 5:41:07 GMT -5
I sometimes wish I was born with a wazoo.... sighs
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Post by laughter on Nov 15, 2013 5:55:21 GMT -5
I sometimes wish I was born with a wazoo.... sighs (** puts on round spectacles, puffs on cigar, strokes white beard, leans forward **) <german_accent> vould you go so fah as to say that you have a case of vazoo envy? ...  </german_accent> |
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Post by enigma on Nov 15, 2013 11:14:19 GMT -5
I have no disagreement with the implication that cults are harmful in that context. I'd say some folks are highly susceptible to having the right carrots dangled in front of them, and one way to avoid such a situation is to 'sell' the truth instead, which nobody finds particularly tasty. You keep saying this in various ways, and it's one of the main aspects of your 'story' that does not align with mine. What's 'tastier' than the promise of lightening the load completely.....of dropping ALL baggage. What's 'tastier' than coming to see that there is no ultimate 'truth'.....no solid place to hang a hat...that nothing needs to be done, sought after, achieved or fought for? That I need not DO anything or Be any thing in particular.....but that just 'being' itself is enough? In terms of carrots (tasty promises) doesn't that one top them all? The truth doesn't offer the identity anything but oblivion. That's why so many here struggle against it. |
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Post by enigma on Nov 15, 2013 11:38:40 GMT -5
It seems like in the short term, it's not tasty, but in the long run it's delectable. Disillusionment is not typically a nice experience because there's a loss of comfort and security with knowing something as you thought it was. I think it can go both ways. Is it really so painful or uncomfy to let go of a previously held to belief if that belief itself was/is the anchor to pain? The majority of my own 'letting go' happened on the heels of emotional pain. I'd been clinging to beliefs about what I needed in order for Peace to prevail. When I saw through those beliefs and they fell away, the Peace I sought, came rushing in. There was no loss of comfort in the seeing through of those beliefs that had been holding me hostage, but rather, quite the opposite. The discomfort came from holding to those beliefs/needs that had been keeping me bound...not in their falling away. At the most intense point of emotional pain, the idea that perhaps those needs and beliefs responsible for the pain could somehow fall away, was enticing beyond anything else I could have imagined. Food that isn't so tasty when the cupboards are full starts to look much tastier when one is starving. |
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Post by enigma on Nov 15, 2013 11:43:07 GMT -5
Turning towards discomfort and fear and emotional pain may be that very process of disillusionment. I'm not sure what you mean here by 'turning towards' discomfort and emotional pain. Do you mean the willingness to look into it and the seeing of the beliefs/needs behind it? In my examples above, there was not so much a turning towards the pain as there was just a strong desire for the pain to end...of course this was coupled with a clear seeing of the thoughts behind the painful emotions. Indeed, there is profound relief on the other side, but even prior to that loss, there was a desire to be rid of those needs and beliefs. The idea that they 'could' fall away was very much 'a carrot' and one that beckoned me forward to the actuality of the loss. Yes. Carrots are kinda straight and pointy. Life preservers are round with a hole in the middle. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2013 11:44:19 GMT -5
You keep saying this in various ways, and it's one of the main aspects of your 'story' that does not align with mine. What's 'tastier' than the promise of lightening the load completely.....of dropping ALL baggage. What's 'tastier' than coming to see that there is no ultimate 'truth'.....no solid place to hang a hat...that nothing needs to be done, sought after, achieved or fought for? That I need not DO anything or Be any thing in particular.....but that just 'being' itself is enough? In terms of carrots (tasty promises) doesn't that one top them all? The truth doesn't offer the identity anything but oblivion. That's why so many here struggle against it. Yeah....I guess I just don't see 'so many' struggling with that one, as you do. Can you give some examples of where you see that kind of struggling happening? As I see it, the greater the discomfort, the more apt one is to want to release attachment to the sense of being a rigidly set 'somebody.' That idea of 'absence' in that case, is very much a big fat juicy carrot, and the greater the pain, the more golden looking that carrot. Indeed, someone who is relatively comfortable with their life will have little desire to release something that is not regarded to be problematic. The desire to be free does not arise when one already feels like he is free. The man who is so emotionally distraught that he is gearing up to take his own life, is so strongly wanting to be free of his identity, that he's willing to off himself in order for it happen. He is not struggling with wanting to hang onto his identity & storyline ,but rather he's struggling with not knowing or understanding 'how to' let it all go. As I see it, The 'struggle' lies in the belief in permanent bondage as it butts up against the desire to be free....the struggle falls away when it is seen that the identity and storyline are not set in stone, and never where, but are instead fluid and malleable and can be donned or cast off like clothing. |
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