|
|
Post by enigma on Nov 12, 2013 11:09:58 GMT -5
You mean like Niz and Ramana? Is it devotion that is objectionable? In my experience at the ashram, devotees take as gospel the rantings of the teacher (which is really the teachings of the Buddha)... every word a pearl of wisdom. Actually the teacher is a wise man, but in other ways he's a fool all caught up in his own bulldust. Reminds me of myself in that way. That may be in that case, and often is, but considering that devotion is often useful, and words spoken often not, I have trouble labeling such encounters as a problem. I don't know what anyone needs, and I don't think anyone else does. |
|
|
|
Post by lolly on Nov 12, 2013 19:24:46 GMT -5
In my experience at the ashram, devotees take as gospel the rantings of the teacher (which is really the teachings of the Buddha)... every word a pearl of wisdom. Actually the teacher is a wise man, but in other ways he's a fool all caught up in his own bulldust. Reminds me of myself in that way. That may be in that case, and often is, but considering that devotion is often useful, and words spoken often not, I have trouble labeling such encounters as a problem. I don't know what anyone needs, and I don't think anyone else does. It is often the case, we've all see it. It's obvious that the problem is coercion. The pointer poses as the deliverer of Truth and anyone who believes that is Told what to believe. In my case, I have to take a lot of care NOT to influence people with my values and beliefs because I need to promote self determination in order to empower individuals. Pointing would be considered detrimental to that aim. I have a position of power because a person seeking help is vulnerable, and if I Told them while knowing that, well - that's coercive. |
|
|
|
Post by enigma on Nov 12, 2013 22:34:11 GMT -5
That may be in that case, and often is, but considering that devotion is often useful, and words spoken often not, I have trouble labeling such encounters as a problem. I don't know what anyone needs, and I don't think anyone else does. It is often the case, we've all see it. It's obvious that the problem is coercion. The pointer poses as the deliverer of Truth and anyone who believes that is Told what to believe. In my case, I have to take a lot of care NOT to influence people with my values and beliefs because I need to promote self determination in order to empower individuals. Pointing would be considered detrimental to that aim. I have a position of power because a person seeking help is vulnerable, and if I Told them while knowing that, well - that's coercive. It sounds like you're talking about cults. My opinion is that Niz, Ramana and Buddha were not cult leaders, and there are no cult leaders on this forum, and I seriously doubt that you have such a potential. Do you have personal experience with cults? |
|
|
|
Post by lolly on Nov 12, 2013 23:09:16 GMT -5
It is often the case, we've all see it. It's obvious that the problem is coercion. The pointer poses as the deliverer of Truth and anyone who believes that is Told what to believe. In my case, I have to take a lot of care NOT to influence people with my values and beliefs because I need to promote self determination in order to empower individuals. Pointing would be considered detrimental to that aim. I have a position of power because a person seeking help is vulnerable, and if I Told them while knowing that, well - that's coercive. It sounds like you're talking about cults. My opinion is that Niz, Ramana and Buddha were not cult leaders, and there are no cult leaders on this forum, and I seriously doubt that you have such a potential. Do you have personal experience with cults? No, never experienced a cult, but have see devotees encouraged to follow their teacher... like the orange people for example... I guess some would see that as a cult. |
|
|
|
Post by laughter on Nov 12, 2013 23:13:48 GMT -5
It sounds like you're talking about cults. My opinion is that Niz, Ramana and Buddha were not cult leaders, and there are no cult leaders on this forum, and I seriously doubt that you have such a potential. Do you have personal experience with cults? No, never experienced a cult, but have see devotees encouraged to follow their teacher... like the orange people for example... I guess some would see that as a cult. What, you mean like the followers of the great Maharaja Bonheimrishi?   Does it redeem them in any sense in your eyes that they'll be slaying Blue Devils this season? |
|
|
|
Post by acewall on Nov 13, 2013 0:56:24 GMT -5
I read about this one enlightened guy and husbands would bring their wifes to him to have sex with him. It was his contribution to the betterment of humankind. What do you think about this?  I think that's a totally separate issue from anything whatsoever to do with 'enlightenment' -- don't you? Interesting way to suck up to the so-called big kahuna Mr. Enlightenment, ay?  to associate with King penis attracts alot of ppl that are getting to understand their sexuality.(gradually) He had good perception yet his wisdom was lacking an finally he was put in Gaol for sexually interferring with the children within his community and died there. Some found Mr Penis useful, some distateful;He was one of my architecture clients when i was young and unknowing an we got along ok, 'cept when he asked me to join his club for the girls... I refrained as I was wanting to go beyond sexually pleasuring my ego, go deeper like,get into the Heart of Matter, the spirit like, What is THIS life about?  |
|
|
|
Post by acewall on Nov 13, 2013 1:05:06 GMT -5
No, never experienced a cult, but have see devotees encouraged to follow their teacher... like the orange people for example... I guess some would see that as a cult. What, you mean like the followers of the great Maharaja Bonheimrishi? Does it redeem them in any sense in your eyes that they'll be slaying Blue Devils this season? There are a few woman-cults about on the net. Maybe one could come into ST.org an we could all look up her dress instead of the dorks that are about advertising where one can deposit their hard earned-cash? Gurdjieff certainly fleeced his followers well.  |
|
|
|
Post by acewall on Nov 13, 2013 1:10:08 GMT -5
Greetings.. You misunderstood. This is what I was referring to as a hypothetical scenario: "I'm curious about why someone would use such a transparent tactic, give it a pejorative label, then dismiss the label as not connected to the tactic.." I didn't misunderstand.. i illuminated the folly of throwing rocks from transparent fortifications.. Be well.. like you finally broke out? |
|
|
|
Post by lolly on Nov 13, 2013 2:02:42 GMT -5
No, never experienced a cult, but have see devotees encouraged to follow their teacher... like the orange people for example... I guess some would see that as a cult. What, you mean like the followers of the great Maharaja Bonheimrishi? Does it redeem them in any sense in your eyes that they'll be slaying Blue Devils this season? I like these orange people  |
|
|
|
Post by laughter on Nov 13, 2013 2:11:09 GMT -5
What, you mean like the followers of the great Maharaja Bonheimrishi? Does it redeem them in any sense in your eyes that they'll be slaying Blue Devils this season? I like these orange people View Attachment.... looks like any given Saturday out at the dome ...  ... 'cept ... probably the orangutangs are too well mannered to throw their beer cups ... |
|
|
|
Post by silence on Nov 13, 2013 10:30:51 GMT -5
I think that's a totally separate issue from anything whatsoever to do with 'enlightenment' -- don't you? Interesting way to suck up to the so-called big kahuna Mr. Enlightenment, ay? to associate with King penis attracts alot of ppl that are getting to understand their sexuality.(gradually) He had good perception yet his wisdom was lacking an finally he was put in Gaol for sexually interferring with the children within his community and died there. Some found Mr Penis useful, some distateful;He was one of my architecture clients when i was young and unknowing an we got along ok, 'cept when he asked me to join his club for the girls... I refrained as I was wanting to go beyond sexually pleasuring my ego, go deeper like,get into the Heart of Matter, the spirit like, What is THIS life about? Haha. |
|
|
|
Post by enigma on Nov 13, 2013 14:09:31 GMT -5
It sounds like you're talking about cults. My opinion is that Niz, Ramana and Buddha were not cult leaders, and there are no cult leaders on this forum, and I seriously doubt that you have such a potential. Do you have personal experience with cults? No, never experienced a cult, but have see devotees encouraged to follow their teacher... like the orange people for example... I guess some would see that as a cult. I have no disagreement with the implication that cults are harmful in that context. I'd say some folks are highly susceptible to having the right carrots dangled in front of them, and one way to avoid such a situation is to 'sell' the truth instead, which nobody finds particularly tasty. |
|
|
|
Post by acewall on Nov 13, 2013 19:03:16 GMT -5
to associate with King penis attracts alot of ppl that are getting to understand their sexuality.(gradually) He had good perception yet his wisdom was lacking an finally he was put in Gaol for sexually interferring with the children within his community and died there. Some found Mr Penis useful, some distateful;He was one of my architecture clients when i was young and unknowing an we got along ok, 'cept when he asked me to join his club for the girls... I refrained as I was wanting to go beyond sexually pleasuring my ego, go deeper like,get into the Heart of Matter, the spirit like, What is THIS life about? Haha. shame i thought, what started out as good intent(gestalt therapist) got him in the end(ouch) Power outside that of societies-culture is a threat to society. To remain integrated in society as a useful-caring person ssems to help as opposed to setting Oneself up as a God, Guru,Spiritual Teacher,Master blah blah! Would the real teacher please stand up? I feel a book coming on... Riotous assembly of the Gods. if this has been done before, "give me a link!"  |
|
|
|
Post by lolly on Nov 14, 2013 3:11:42 GMT -5
No, never experienced a cult, but have see devotees encouraged to follow their teacher... like the orange people for example... I guess some would see that as a cult. I have no disagreement with the implication that cults are harmful in that context. I'd say some folks are highly susceptible to having the right carrots dangled in front of them, and one way to avoid such a situation is to 'sell' the truth instead, which nobody finds particularly tasty. It's really a simple matter righteousness where a person is under the impression that what is true for himself is also true for others, what's true for me is a matter of insight and has no bearing on the insight of others. What we end up with here is 'selling the truth' replacing 'Telling the Truth'. In this case I'm hearing that 'no one finds the truth tasty' and I'm concerned about what actions you might take to make that belief seem valid, and I have seen the preachy types launch 'attacks' (which laughter is kinda into) on persons most vulnerable places... but who really has the time to listen to people and actually find out the truth as it pertains to them? |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 14, 2013 11:40:57 GMT -5
No, never experienced a cult, but have see devotees encouraged to follow their teacher... like the orange people for example... I guess some would see that as a cult. I have no disagreement with the implication that cults are harmful in that context. I'd say some folks are highly susceptible to having the right carrots dangled in front of them, and one way to avoid such a situation is to 'sell' the truth instead, which nobody finds particularly tasty. You keep saying this in various ways, and it's one of the main aspects of your 'story' that does not align with mine.  What's 'tastier' than the promise of lightening the load completely.....of dropping ALL baggage. What's 'tastier' than coming to see that there is no ultimate 'truth'.....no solid place to hang a hat...that nothing needs to be done, sought after, achieved or fought for? That I need not DO anything or Be any thing in particular.....but that just 'being' itself is enough? In terms of carrots (tasty promises) doesn't that one top them all? |
|
