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Post by lightmystic on Nov 4, 2009 11:47:00 GMT -5
Well, they are definitely not the same. Mystical experiences can come before or after Enlightenment. On the path, however, they can come up more often, more clearly, and really come into focus. If that starts to happen, then it is just a sign that something is moving in the right direction, but the experience itself is irrelevant. And, even though having spontaneous mystical experiences can be a sign that one has moved in the right direction, not having them does not mean one is not moving in the right direction. One can be fully Enlightened, theoretically, and never have any mystical experiences except the primary one - that of no separate self. Which is more of a recognition or direct knowing than an experience anyway.
Also, getting overly focused on a mystical experience or mystical experiences in general is surely a potential block and sidetrack. Enlightenment is NOT about those things, even though it would not be completely correct to say that there is no relationship at all. It's just that there COULD be no relationship at all if one is not prone to those sort of mystical experiences....
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Post by zendancer on Nov 4, 2009 15:18:47 GMT -5
LM: You gave an extremely good explanation. Zen calls mystical experiences "kensho" experiences. They can be anything from a non-local experience to a unity-conscious experience to a deep insight, but only a kensho experience that shatters the illusion of selfhood would be considered satori, or enlightenment, and that's fairly rare. Indeed, some people become enlightened without ever having kensho-type experiences; they simply see through the illusion at some point without any fanfare.
Non-local experiences can be fairly interesting. About fifteen years ago Zen Master Barbara Rhodes was doing a one-hundred day solo retreat. She was staying in a small cabin that belonged to a friend. It was heated by a wood-burning fireplace. One night she decided to sleep outside under the stars in her sleeping bag. She went to sleep with her back to the cabin. In the middle of the night she heard a small voice say, "Take a look." She didn't do anything, and a few moments later the voice returned and said more loudly and more insistently, "Take a look!" The third time it happened the voice was so loud that it got her attention, she rolled over, and saw a glow coming from the cabin. She jumped up, rushed to the cabin, and discovered that some embers from the fireplace had ignited the floor. She put out the fire, and then rushed around for the next hour or so cleaning up the mess. It was only after she sat down to rest that she realized she had been awakened by a voice and that her body had been facing away from the cabin. Reality is far stranger than is usually thought.
I don;t remember the details, but St. John of the Cross also experienced several non-local events. His jailor (in the monastery where he was imprisoned for refusing the wear shoes) reported seeing a bright glow coming from St. John's cell. He went to investigate and found the cell door open and a light radiating from that area. St. John had discovered the open door, walked through it and across the yard from the cellblock, and suddenly found himself on top of a wall thirty feet off the ground. I can't remember if St. John wrote about this in his diaries or whether the jailor related it to a third party who recorded it.
I think Catholics use the term "mystical experiences" to describe epiphanies and unity-conscious experiences, but many protestant denominations eschew such things as the work of the devil. As someone once said to me, "If you open your mind, you never know what might take up residence there." LOL
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Post by question on Nov 6, 2009 20:08:31 GMT -5
I often have some shapes and shades come to my attention (in meditation or other times of deep introspection). I cannot describe them at all. I just know that they are there, and I can see and feel some shapes, I can't remember what they feel or look like, even though I haven't forgotten them somehow... They've always been a mystery to me. Your thing is about the closest I've heard. The "feeling shapes and shades", I think I'm having that, too. Actual complex geometric shapes and structures that are not seen, but felt. Especially while falling asleep after an exhausting day of work when I just don't have the strenght to think or resist anything and then it's seen most clearly. But that "solid block/space" experience is very distinct from that. It's not at all subtle. It's impossible to miss. Weight, heaviness, solidity, palpable space, pressure are the attributes that come closest I think. It sounds like you are starting to experience one or more aspects of your subtle bodies. As you progress, you might start to notice changes with those subtle bodies as well. The changes happen whether it's understood or not, and if you need to know something you will, but it IS interesting. Yeah I kinda suspected that it might have something to do with the subtle bodies. Actually I'm surprised that no one knows anything about it, because I've been having this for as long as I can remember. |
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Post by dramos on Nov 6, 2009 22:59:38 GMT -5
This is what I've been experiencing for a while but it is becoming more and more noticeable.
Energy, this only being a word to describe IT. I've been able to feel other people's "energy" but more recently the "energy" within. How it works I do not know and that is fine for it just IS. When I put all thoughts aside It can be felt, when focused within the "center" .... it is so hard to describe but it pushes out from this "center" and I can feel it throughout the whole body, again........ at it's "climax" it can be pushed beyond the body, I focus on LOVE when this happens. When the "moment" is gone, I take a few minutes to relax and wake. I feel drained but feel more whole and complete.
Those who experience such things know of the trouble in finding words to describe IT.
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Post by lightmystic on Nov 9, 2009 12:54:59 GMT -5
Well, that's definitely an aspect of the structure of Creation.... It's pretty cool when these things start to be tapped into, eh? I often have some shapes and shades come to my attention (in meditation or other times of deep introspection). I cannot describe them at all. I just know that they are there, and I can see and feel some shapes, I can't remember what they feel or look like, even though I haven't forgotten them somehow... They've always been a mystery to me. Your thing is about the closest I've heard. The "feeling shapes and shades", I think I'm having that, too. Actual complex geometric shapes and structures that are not seen, but felt. Especially while falling asleep after an exhausting day of work when I just don't have the strenght to think or resist anything and then it's seen most clearly. But that "solid block/space" experience is very distinct from that. It's not at all subtle. It's impossible to miss. Weight, heaviness, solidity, palpable space, pressure are the attributes that come closest I think. It sounds like you are starting to experience one or more aspects of your subtle bodies. As you progress, you might start to notice changes with those subtle bodies as well. The changes happen whether it's understood or not, and if you need to know something you will, but it IS interesting. Yeah I kinda suspected that it might have something to do with the subtle bodies. Actually I'm surprised that no one knows anything about it, because I've been having this for as long as I can remember. |
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Post by lightmystic on Nov 9, 2009 12:55:29 GMT -5
Hehe, yes, it can be very hard to talk about.... This is what I've been experiencing for a while but it is becoming more and more noticeable. Energy, this only being a word to describe IT. I've been able to feel other people's "energy" but more recently the "energy" within. How it works I do not know and that is fine for it just IS. When I put all thoughts aside It can be felt, when focused within the "center" .... it is so hard to describe but it pushes out from this "center" and I can feel it throughout the whole body, again........ at it's "climax" it can be pushed beyond the body, I focus on LOVE when this happens. When the "moment" is gone, I take a few minutes to relax and wake. I feel drained but feel more whole and complete. Those who experience such things know of the trouble in finding words to describe IT. |
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