The Mystical Experience

[illuminate]

The Theologia Germanica asks:
What is it like to partake of God’s Divine Nature, to be filled with Divine Light, to be imbued with the Eternal Love of Christ?

For that, in truth, is the essential purpose of Christianity. In the early days of Christianity this infusion of Light into the Soul was to be done now, in this lifetime, while in the body. When Christianity became “Churchianity”, however, this became only a promise for a future afterlife in “Heaven”.

The true Christian Tradition—true Gnosticism, Hesychasm and Mysticism—is not about asking God for things to pamper one’s personality (however useful such things might be). It is about loving God, simply because God is.

Mystical Contemplation occurs when you subdue the thoughts in your ordinary, discursive, reasoning mind, leave behind all attachments to worldly things and, in absolute detachment from all things (including yourself!), raise yourself into the Stream of Divine Light. Thus taught, also, Saint Dionsius the Areopagite.

The earliest forms of Christian prayers (meditations) were to allow the transcendence of the thinking faculty, to stop the chatter of the mind, imagination and memory. Then, in a wordless, thoughtless mind-state, one could ascend to the contemplation of the Presence of God by a direct Knowing, a Soul-touch, above the mind. In this sense, true Christianity is identical to true Yoga, Sufsm, Buddhism, Taoism, Jewish Mysticism and Zen.

EXCERPT FROM CHAPTER 28, HEAVENS AND HELLS OF THE MIND BY IMRE VALLYON

[fear]

Wow, that is pretty impressive that early christianity was based on this. I've read or heard somewhere that some of the missing scrolls that were found ruined in a cave, not the dead sea scrolls but different ones were removed from christian teaching because it threatened the church. The scrolls taught that one should search for God within himself and did not require any outside teaching. Kind of relates to what Imre is saying here.

[african]

i agree with you guys. I go to church and I do have a problem with Christianity these days. They keep insisting that Jesus is the one to save us and that God stays somewhere up in heaven. They do not want to accept that we can look within to find God. Instead they focus outwards. I really wish that christianity should go back to its roots as mentioned above. As it is they deviating from the teachings of Christ himself.

[divinity]

Yes, remember that when asked how should they pray, the disciples were told to pray: "OUR father which art in Heaven"... not "MY father which art in Heaven"... to me this was always a sign that we are all god's children and that Jesus was saying just that.
The religion OF Jesus is much more gentle and sensible than the religions ABOUT Jesus have become over the years...

[african]

Aug 18, 2009 10:34:01 GMT -5 divinity said:

The religion OF Jesus is much more gentle and sensible than the religions ABOUT Jesus have become over the years...

If any one wants to see the difference between the religion OF Jesus and that ABOUT Jesus I refer you to the book by Yogi Ramacharaka called Mystic Christianity : The Inner Teachings of The Master

[kate140369]

indeed, thats why we feel drawn to these faiths and practices

[divinity]

A belief is only a pattern of thoughts we think constantly. A knowing is far different.

[zendancer]

Divinity: You're right. Beliefs are very superficial, and conversion, also called "metanoia", is usually a conversion from one belief system to another. What everyone on this website is searching for, however, is direct experience unmediated by thoughts. Faith, like beliefs, also becomes unnecessary after having direct experience. Someone can "believe in God (Allah, Tao, Absolute, etc.)" or "have faith in God," but after acquiring direct experience, this kind of belief and faith becomes unnecessary.

I often tell people that this path is identical to any other form of scientific inquiry. The methodology goes something like this:

1. Scientist #1 makes a truth claim, "The planet Saturn has rings around it."
2. Scientist #2 is skeptical and asks "how can I acquire direct experience so that I can decide for myself whether your statement is correct or not?"
3. Scientist #1 issues a set of injunctions--a recipe--"Get a telescope, learn how to use it, and point it at the planet saturn."
4. Scientist #2 follows the injunctions, looks through a telescope at the planet Saturn, and has a direct experience. He/she can then decide for him/herself whether to agree or disagree with how Scientist #1 has chosen to cognize reality.

On this website we have people making truth claims, such as, "Reality is unified. It is a living Whole. There is nothing separate. "Time," "space," and "thingness" are illusions created by human thought. The world of things and events that most people perceive is all part of that illusion."

A person who is skeptical of these claims responds, "How can I acquire direct experience so that I can decide for myself whether these claims are correct or incorrect?"

We reply with a set of injunctions, such as, "You will have to perform an experiment using your own consciousness. Begin watching your thoughts without following them. Ask yourself, "Who is the one watching thoughts appear and disappear?" Become silent and deeply contemplate what's going on." Etc.

The questioner then performs the experiment, looks within, acquires some direct experience, and decides for himself/herself whether the original truth claims were justified.

If someone follows this path far enough, he/she eventually progresses from seeing the truth to embodying the truth. Someone who has embodied the truth can say with Jesus, "I am the truth," or with Al Hallaj, the Sufi mystic who was also executed for blasphemously saying, "I am the truth." Jesus was nailed to a cross. Al Hallaj had molten lead poured into his ear. Thank goodness we live in a slightly more tolerant era! LOL

[Peter]

Zendancer, just wanted to say that I'm appreciating the breadth of knowledge (and humerous anecdotes!) that you're bringing to the board. Your experience and lifetime of learning is shining through. Even to the extent that I find myself forgiving you for not being a seeker.

Cheers,
Peter

[zendancer]

Peter: Yes, I do love the history of the non-dual traditions, and I wish that had kept better notes along the way. As I get older, I often forget the sources and exact details of stories, and only the general gist remains. For example, I wish I could remember where I originally heard this story, but it goes something like this: in a particular culture a guy asked a sage, "What holds up the world?" The sage responded, "Four large turtles." The guy thought for a moment and then asked, "Well, what holds up the four turtles?" The sage replied, "Four even larger turtles." The guy reflected upon this answer and then asked, "Well, what holds up those turtles?" The sage looked at him and then slowly said, "Buddy, its turtles all the way down." I can't even remember the context of the story, but I've never forgotten the punch line, and my wife and I often quote it when we're talking about aspects of the spiritual path. One of us will say something a bit shallow and the other will say, "Honey, remember, its turtles all the way down." As Gangaji once said, "No matter how deep we go, there is no end to the depth."

Ironically, I have a friend who had an enlightenment experience at the age of seven as a direct result of following the line of thought in the above story. As a child he was sitting on a toilet one day when he had the thought, "What holds up this toilet?" His mind responded, "The world." Then he thought, "Well, what holds up the world?" His mind responded, "The universe." Then he thought, "Well, what holds up the universe?" Because no answer immediately appeared, his mind opened up and he encountered the Vastness. He told me that it scared him to death because his sense of separateness dissolved into something so big that his mind couldn't deal with it. I've talked to many other people who remember similar non-dual experiences from childhood. One of the most unusual accounts is included in Suzanne Segal's book, "Collision with the Infinite." If you haven't read her book, be sure to get a copy. Her book has had profound effects upon numerous people.

As for the other stories, I can only remember a few of the thousands I've read during the last twenty years, but the mystical path has some real humdingers! After I first got a small glimpse of the truth in 1984, I spent hundreds of hours in libraries reading all of the mystical literature I could find. I was trying to put what had happened to me in context and see how it related to what people had experienced in other religions. Boy, did I ever find some wild stuff out there!

In general, every major religion has sprung up around an individual who discovered the truth. Everybody knows that Buddhism appeared as a result of the Buddha's teachings, but Sikhism, Jainism, Kabirpanthism, and dozens of other religions similarly arose because of the teachings of one individual. I think it was Mahavira who founded the Jain religion. The story I read stated that he was a very pious intellectual, but one day he encountered a woman who told him that he didn't have a clue about the truth. Mahavira was horribly insulted but he apparently realized that she was correct, so he threw away all of his books and walked off into the desert. He disappeared for something like ten or fifteen years. When he came back to civilization, he was stark naked, and the people he first encountered threw stones at him. Then, at some point they realized that he was enlightened and they came to him for his teaching. He never wore clothes again for the rest of life and he was a very far-out character. I think he was called the first "Tirtantanka," or something like that. Afterwards there was a long line of similar Tirtantankas in the Jain tradition that passed the teachings down the line.

Kabir was another terrific character. He woke up and began to tell people that all of the Muslim and Hindu priests where he lived were full of crap and totally ignorant of the truth. All of the priests hated his guts---until he died, after which both the Muslims and Hindus claimed him as one of their saints! He wrote some fantastic poetry (similar to that of Rumi) and today the religion that sprang up in his name--Kabirpanthism--has about four million followers. I found it interesting that he is reported to have once brought a dead person back to life and performed various miracles. Does that sound familiar?

At any rate, the contemplative path is a real hoot, especially if you have an open mind and a good sense of humor, and it is filled with stories about very unusual people. Like you, I think that this website has some of the most interesting discussions about non-dualism available anywhere on the net. Kudos to Shawn for setting it up, Lightmystic and others who help maintain it, and you and all of the other regular contributors. Take care.

[divinity]

What a wealth of information here. I have spent most of my life finding my own path/way/search... now I'm learning about what others have been doing. Quite fun actually!
My favorite story is about the monk who is in the shower and who feels a snake with his foot at the bottom of the shower.. he is filled with stark terror because there are poisonous snakes in his area. When he looks down and discovers that the "snake" is actually a rope, his body calms immediately. I always wonder if it was left over from a Buddha on a rope..? LOL
What we think is real can make our blood pressure raise and our flight response kick in. One must be very careful what one thinks is going on! One must be very careful what one believes. I have stopped watching the "news" because of this.

[question]

If the whole thing was scientific in a similar way that you've described, wouldn't the success rate be much higher?

I have yet to hear an enlightened person say that realizing the Truth isn't purely Grace. Most of them say that actual practise has nothing to do with enlightenment. I've heard of studies that the majority of enlightened people stumbled into the Truth without any prior practise.

On the one hand I hope that there is a method to awakening. But I also suspect that there's absolutely nothing that I can do to become enlightened. And now I'm stuck somewhere in between...

Sept 13, 2009 12:21:51 GMT -5 zendancer said:

On this website we have people making truth claims, such as, "Reality is unified. It is a living Whole. There is nothing separate. "Time," "space," and "thingness" are illusions created by human thought. The world of things and events that most people perceive is all part of that illusion."

A person who is skeptical of these claims responds, "How can I acquire direct experience so that I can decide for myself whether these claims are correct or incorrect?"

We reply with a set of injunctions, such as, "You will have to perform an experiment using your own consciousness. Begin watching your thoughts without following them. Ask yourself, "Who is the one watching thoughts appear and disappear?" Become silent and deeply contemplate what's going on." Etc.

The questioner then performs the experiment, looks within, acquires some direct experience, and decides for himself/herself whether the original truth claims were justified.

[zendancer]

New Member: Yes, realizing the truth is purely by grace. When and if it happens, nobody had anything to do with it. You can follow the formulas, but that is never the full story. It is as if you were pounding on a door requesting entrance, and suddenly the door opens, and you are yanked inside, and you had nothing to do with that yanking. The mystery is why some people are compelled to follow this path and others are not. The success rate has nothing to do with logic. I was simply saying that the methodology is identical to that of science--issuance of injunctions, etc. Who decides to follow the injunctions is a mystery, but this is also true in the field of science. Only a few people feel compelled to perform the experiments and acquire direct experience.

Each person teaches in his/her own way. I tell people to become silent, to watch their thoughts, to give up ideas, to trust the universe, to live in the present moment, to be aware of sense phenomena, to stop second-guessing themselves, etc, but why some people choose to do this and others do not is a total mystery. Nevertheless, the seeds have to be thrown out. Some of them fall on rocks and others fall onto fertile soil. From my perspective, there is no choice at all. I simply do what I have to do moment and moment without question and without doubt. I have to issue various injunctions and whatever happens next is equally the will of God. It is all a play, but it is God's play.

However, from my extensive reading of mystical literature, I think that people who have practiced some form of meditation have a far better success rate than those who haven't, but there are no guarantees. I can only think of about five people who have awakened spontaneously without pursuing some kind of formal practice, but everyone who wakes up agrees that there was no causal connection between the practice and their awakening.

I was recently talking with a good friend who is deeply enlightened and we agreed that the people who are most likely to wake up are the people for whom the search for truth becomes more important than anything else. We take this to mean that the universe, through particular individuals, is driven to wake itself up. It is exceedingly strange, to say the least.

[question]

Zendancer, thank you for your reply!

I understand your comparison of scientific and spiritual inquiry, the reason why I said that I'd expect a higher success rate is because science seems so much easier, just learn and apply, anyone with half a brain can do it. The teacher can so easily check on one's progress and the student always knows where he's at, he knows if he has understood or not and he always knows what there is to be understood and how to understand. Spiritual concepts make sense, they are elegant, but it seems to me that there is a huge gap between understanding intellectually and actually realizing it. I'm afraid that intellectual understanding is actually nothing but MISunderstanding and that's why I'm so suspicious when it comes to the claim that there is an applicable method to nonduality.

Over the last days I tried to investigate this problem and it boiled down to the question: Who does the learning? Who does the understanding?
- If the "I-thing" does the learning, how can it do so? The "I-thing" doesn't perceive anything, it has no faculties with which to perceive, if it doesn't perceive anything then it follows that it can't learn, because it has no access to information from which to learn. But it still has aquired a name for itself ("I", "Ich", "Ego" etc) and it has learned to be seperate, it even has learned to make some people commit suicide.
- If it is the oneness that does the learning, then it must have learned for something that arises within itself to be given a name such as "I", to have it feel seperate and all the other consequences... I can understand the evolutionary purpose behind this, but I don't understand why, since the objective if the One is to experience itself as the One, the illusion is not AT ONCE dispelled when there is the sacred desire. If the "I-thing" doesn't even exist, then how can it be in the way? And if it isn't in the way, the how can there be a thought that it is in the way, why isn't it just switched off? From what I've heard, the bodymind works perfectly without the "I-thing" (see Suzanne Segal) so then where's the problem?

Another question I have is: How to request entrance?



As to the source that I mentoned that claimed many awakenings happening without prior spiritual practice, Richard Sylvester mentioned ( www.youtube.com/watch?v=rrObiz6y_6s ) a book called "Super Consciosness Revisited" where this is supposed to be documented, but I couldn't find that book via google.

[anonji]

Science could help one switch to the spiritual side but the "learn and apply" approach will not work. Any thought-based method to reach beyond thought will be self-defeating since thought is the arbiter and can overrule experience. The only thing I can envision (and it doesn't exist yet), is a substance or procedure that can switch off thought and boost the spiritual side. After an experience like that, one's direction in life will be clear. I'm not talking about something like LSD, although it does switch off thought, but the other side can be highly exaggerated and bizarre. It will likely require some kind of access to the brain and how it functions. The closest thing around at this time is brainwave synchronization. That has the power to alter brain functioning for a short period of time. I think something could be engineered to induce an awakening in a gentle way. But its time has not yet arrived!