Post by lightmystic on Sept 22, 2009 13:13:10 GMT -5
Hey question. I think you really summed up the conundrum beautifully. You really summed up well how the mind and intellect cannot grasp this the way they can grasp learning, so it seems impossible that there could be a process, but somehow there is a process. It's just a very different process than we are used to. The thing is that to be able to intellectually recognize the process can provide a starting point of openness. And, if it's really desired, it is assured. There is no question. I had not known that at the time I was going through the transformation, and wasn't sure I could trust it. But you can, as long as you realize what the process really IS.
There are a million ways to talk about it, but here's one of mine:
It's the process of recognizing that you already are the Oneness. Yes, it's not an intellectual one, but at a deep visceral emotional level. A knowing deeper than knowing. And it doesn't come by concepts, because it's infinite, the infinite cannot be defined as something, because then it wouldn't really be infinite. So the mind cannot create a limited conception of it. So it's not learning, but rather something closer than our breath, closer than we are to our own selves. And the only reason we cannot see it is because we had a reasonable misconception a long time ago, and blindly believed it for so long that we forgot that it was even an assumption.
You know, this process of finding assumptions, seeing what is behind the concepts, is only there because there is a resistance to it. How can we possibly look at something clearly that we are terrified to look at, to feel? And it seems to be that really feeling into whatever makes us feel small, allows that resistance to start to be accepted, the discomfort to be accepted, and then it can relax as it naturally starts to be known, on the emotional level, as safe.
This process eases us out of resistances, into more and more letting go. Ultimately it is the unknown we are afraid of, of annihilation. This is the most primal of fears. And it is the putting stock in that fear on the deepest level, that generates the feeling of separateness, generates the NEED for separateness, because we could be engulfed by the Oneness. We could be Alone. Utterly alone.
As resistances start to fade more and more through this process of gently feeling into it (however you choose to do that) then most deeply held values and truths and objective knowledge starts to unwind, starts to become suspect. I've even heard it described as a feeling of insanity as the mind starts to unravel. Everything we know so intimately and so well is just a house of cards. And it all comes down. Period. No exceptions.
When enough of the house has started to come down, it can become clearer and clearer the "ness" that underlies everything. I'm using the word "ness" because it suggests a quality like-ness. Maybe an Is-ness, but that sounds too much like a buzzword. And there is no "is" vs. "not is", it's an all encompassing process. Just a " "-ness....perhaps you can even feel it now.
the more one can release themselves to be with more of that, the gentler things get, the more open and loving things get, this is what makes the world fall apart. When everything falls apart. There is no more ability to keep it together.
And the answer and question all centers around that you know. You know even if you don't recognize it. The fact that you are even looking for it, the fact that you even KNOW to look for it, means it's got at least the faintest whisper of itself in your being. It's calling, it's been calling. Internally, Externally. Otherwise, you wouldn't even know to want it....
That recognition points to the direction to go to make it clearer. Towards the desire: through the question. The question is your portal to " ". Because it asks "where can I have/be/know " "?
And when you feel what the feeling is inside you, what that subtle (or not so subtle) gentle, knowingness inside is that perks up when you feel into " ". That is what is getting clearer as the unwillingness to really look at the scariness falls away. Bit by bit. Or even all at once. The rule is that there are not rules on how this manifests on the surface. Not that it is important. The importance is really only that it does.
Life gives you the next thing. Life presents the next thing to be aware of and let go of, just as life provided the knowingness at that deepest level so that you knew at the deepest level to even want it. And so letting life take the reigns makes it easier, gentler, it's always been guiding anyway. It just takes relaxing enough for it to take you....
And then it's a much smoother process, faster, and possibly more intense and gentle at the same time.
What do you say?
Zendancer, thank you for your reply!
I understand your comparison of scientific and spiritual inquiry, the reason why I said that I'd expect a higher success rate is because science seems so much easier, just learn and apply, anyone with half a brain can do it. The teacher can so easily check on one's progress and the student always knows where he's at, he knows if he has understood or not and he always knows what there is to be understood and how to understand. Spiritual concepts make sense, they are elegant, but it seems to me that there is a huge gap between understanding intellectually and actually realizing it. I'm afraid that intellectual understanding is actually nothing but MISunderstanding and that's why I'm so suspicious when it comes to the claim that there is an applicable method to nonduality.
Over the last days I tried to investigate this problem and it boiled down to the question: Who does the learning? Who does the understanding?
- If the "I-thing" does the learning, how can it do so? The "I-thing" doesn't perceive anything, it has no faculties with which to perceive, if it doesn't perceive anything then it follows that it can't learn, because it has no access to information from which to learn. But it still has aquired a name for itself ("I", "Ich", "Ego" etc) and it has learned to be seperate, it even has learned to make some people commit suicide.
- If it is the oneness that does the learning, then it must have learned for something that arises within itself to be given a name such as "I", to have it feel seperate and all the other consequences... I can understand the evolutionary purpose behind this, but I don't understand why, since the objective if the One is to experience itself as the One, the illusion is not AT ONCE dispelled when there is the sacred desire. If the "I-thing" doesn't even exist, then how can it be in the way? And if it isn't in the way, the how can there be a thought that it is in the way, why isn't it just switched off? From what I've heard, the bodymind works perfectly without the "I-thing" (see Suzanne Segal) so then where's the problem?
Another question I have is: How to request entrance?
As to the source that I mentoned that claimed many awakenings happening without prior spiritual practice, Richard Sylvester mentioned ( www.youtube.com/watch?v=rrObiz6y_6s ) a book called "Super Consciosness Revisited" where this is supposed to be documented, but I couldn't find that book via google.
There are a million ways to talk about it, but here's one of mine:
It's the process of recognizing that you already are the Oneness. Yes, it's not an intellectual one, but at a deep visceral emotional level. A knowing deeper than knowing. And it doesn't come by concepts, because it's infinite, the infinite cannot be defined as something, because then it wouldn't really be infinite. So the mind cannot create a limited conception of it. So it's not learning, but rather something closer than our breath, closer than we are to our own selves. And the only reason we cannot see it is because we had a reasonable misconception a long time ago, and blindly believed it for so long that we forgot that it was even an assumption.
You know, this process of finding assumptions, seeing what is behind the concepts, is only there because there is a resistance to it. How can we possibly look at something clearly that we are terrified to look at, to feel? And it seems to be that really feeling into whatever makes us feel small, allows that resistance to start to be accepted, the discomfort to be accepted, and then it can relax as it naturally starts to be known, on the emotional level, as safe.
This process eases us out of resistances, into more and more letting go. Ultimately it is the unknown we are afraid of, of annihilation. This is the most primal of fears. And it is the putting stock in that fear on the deepest level, that generates the feeling of separateness, generates the NEED for separateness, because we could be engulfed by the Oneness. We could be Alone. Utterly alone.
As resistances start to fade more and more through this process of gently feeling into it (however you choose to do that) then most deeply held values and truths and objective knowledge starts to unwind, starts to become suspect. I've even heard it described as a feeling of insanity as the mind starts to unravel. Everything we know so intimately and so well is just a house of cards. And it all comes down. Period. No exceptions.
When enough of the house has started to come down, it can become clearer and clearer the "ness" that underlies everything. I'm using the word "ness" because it suggests a quality like-ness. Maybe an Is-ness, but that sounds too much like a buzzword. And there is no "is" vs. "not is", it's an all encompassing process. Just a " "-ness....perhaps you can even feel it now.
the more one can release themselves to be with more of that, the gentler things get, the more open and loving things get, this is what makes the world fall apart. When everything falls apart. There is no more ability to keep it together.
And the answer and question all centers around that you know. You know even if you don't recognize it. The fact that you are even looking for it, the fact that you even KNOW to look for it, means it's got at least the faintest whisper of itself in your being. It's calling, it's been calling. Internally, Externally. Otherwise, you wouldn't even know to want it....
That recognition points to the direction to go to make it clearer. Towards the desire: through the question. The question is your portal to " ". Because it asks "where can I have/be/know " "?
And when you feel what the feeling is inside you, what that subtle (or not so subtle) gentle, knowingness inside is that perks up when you feel into " ". That is what is getting clearer as the unwillingness to really look at the scariness falls away. Bit by bit. Or even all at once. The rule is that there are not rules on how this manifests on the surface. Not that it is important. The importance is really only that it does.
Life gives you the next thing. Life presents the next thing to be aware of and let go of, just as life provided the knowingness at that deepest level so that you knew at the deepest level to even want it. And so letting life take the reigns makes it easier, gentler, it's always been guiding anyway. It just takes relaxing enough for it to take you....
And then it's a much smoother process, faster, and possibly more intense and gentle at the same time.
What do you say?
I understand your comparison of scientific and spiritual inquiry, the reason why I said that I'd expect a higher success rate is because science seems so much easier, just learn and apply, anyone with half a brain can do it. The teacher can so easily check on one's progress and the student always knows where he's at, he knows if he has understood or not and he always knows what there is to be understood and how to understand. Spiritual concepts make sense, they are elegant, but it seems to me that there is a huge gap between understanding intellectually and actually realizing it. I'm afraid that intellectual understanding is actually nothing but MISunderstanding and that's why I'm so suspicious when it comes to the claim that there is an applicable method to nonduality.
Over the last days I tried to investigate this problem and it boiled down to the question: Who does the learning? Who does the understanding?
- If the "I-thing" does the learning, how can it do so? The "I-thing" doesn't perceive anything, it has no faculties with which to perceive, if it doesn't perceive anything then it follows that it can't learn, because it has no access to information from which to learn. But it still has aquired a name for itself ("I", "Ich", "Ego" etc) and it has learned to be seperate, it even has learned to make some people commit suicide.
- If it is the oneness that does the learning, then it must have learned for something that arises within itself to be given a name such as "I", to have it feel seperate and all the other consequences... I can understand the evolutionary purpose behind this, but I don't understand why, since the objective if the One is to experience itself as the One, the illusion is not AT ONCE dispelled when there is the sacred desire. If the "I-thing" doesn't even exist, then how can it be in the way? And if it isn't in the way, the how can there be a thought that it is in the way, why isn't it just switched off? From what I've heard, the bodymind works perfectly without the "I-thing" (see Suzanne Segal) so then where's the problem?
Another question I have is: How to request entrance?
As to the source that I mentoned that claimed many awakenings happening without prior spiritual practice, Richard Sylvester mentioned ( www.youtube.com/watch?v=rrObiz6y_6s ) a book called "Super Consciosness Revisited" where this is supposed to be documented, but I couldn't find that book via google.
