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Post by Deleted on May 3, 2017 13:25:51 GMT -5
What that unconscious knowing pre any realisations is something to be frowned upon and post them, it's to be glorified? and an unnatural way. The natural way assists in mind/body functioning, and the unnatural way disrupts it. So while it sounds ironic to become conscious, and then go unconscious again, we're actually just talking about cleaning up the process. That would involve spontaneity and the non questioning of it, which is what Zen means when he says don't reflect on it, yeah? |
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Post by enigma on May 3, 2017 13:45:48 GMT -5
To nothing is probably more accurate. Though in terms of Niz and the knowing I am, it could be unconscious knowing, to conscious knowing, then back to unconscious knowing. What is absent in the return are the fears and attachments and the misunderstanding. How 'bout the zenny 'just knowing'? I'm uncomfortable with 'unconscious knowing.' The unconscious implies there could be something beneath the surface. It IS beneath the surface. When the body responds without conscious thought, we can call it unconscious knowing. |
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Post by zendancer on May 3, 2017 13:48:21 GMT -5
Right, mind is not interested in transcending mind. There's no benefit to mind. Transcending mind, though, can be sought. I have first hand experience with that. ATA-T for example. Mindfulness. Contemplating 'I am Unborn.' Staying with the I Am in hopes that the I Am, too, will be transcended. Meditation mantra with So Ham.... You could object by saying, well 'transcending mind' is not really understood (because it can't be understood). So it's like saying I'm searching for El Dorado (when actually it's NYC). In other words, what is sought is wrapped up in all sorts of imaginary expectations and other illusions. SR must be like such and such. And likewise, while there may be no ultimate benefits for mind, there are indeed expected benefits in what is sought but those benefits are ultimately the fabricated by confusion. Similarly, as source says, it can not be wanted. But yes I do those aforementioned practices because it is wanted. But then y'all can object by saying that this place can not actually be wanted because desire/want are exactly the sort of thing that are transcended. The quest for otherness belies presence, equanimity with what is. So I suppose a takeaway is that any sort of searching, any sort of desiring (for a desireless state), is a good red flag. That's one way to look at it, but many ND teachers say that wanting to wake up from the dream of "me," or wanting to understand the context of human existence, or wanting to encounter the Infinite, or wanting to find absolute truth, is the only type thing worth wanting. Virtually everything about the pathless path is paradoxical. |
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Post by maxdprophet on May 3, 2017 13:56:45 GMT -5
How 'bout the zenny 'just knowing'? I'm uncomfortable with 'unconscious knowing.' The unconscious implies there could be something beneath the surface. It IS beneath the surface. When the body responds without conscious thought, we can call it unconscious knowing. When the body responds without conscious thought, that doesn't imply unconsciousness. In other words, being conscious doesn't require thought, does it? There is body responding with thought or without thought. It could also be responding unconsciously with thought (flailing around in a dream), or unconsciously without thought (jerking around in deep sleep or struggling under anesthesia), consciously with thought (clickety clacking on this keyboard), or consciously without thought (*puts shoe on head*). It's the last one I think you are talking about re 'unconscious knowing.' Just seems to me 'knowing' implies consciousness. |
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Post by maxdprophet on May 3, 2017 13:59:42 GMT -5
Transcending mind, though, can be sought. I have first hand experience with that. ATA-T for example. Mindfulness. Contemplating 'I am Unborn.' Staying with the I Am in hopes that the I Am, too, will be transcended. Meditation mantra with So Ham.... You could object by saying, well 'transcending mind' is not really understood (because it can't be understood). So it's like saying I'm searching for El Dorado (when actually it's NYC). In other words, what is sought is wrapped up in all sorts of imaginary expectations and other illusions. SR must be like such and such. And likewise, while there may be no ultimate benefits for mind, there are indeed expected benefits in what is sought but those benefits are ultimately the fabricated by confusion. Similarly, as source says, it can not be wanted. But yes I do those aforementioned practices because it is wanted. But then y'all can object by saying that this place can not actually be wanted because desire/want are exactly the sort of thing that are transcended. The quest for otherness belies presence, equanimity with what is. So I suppose a takeaway is that any sort of searching, any sort of desiring (for a desireless state), is a good red flag. That's one way to look at it, but many ND teachers say that wanting to wake up from the dream of "me," or wanting to understand the context of human existence, or wanting to encounter the Infinite, or wanting to find absolute truth, is the only type thing worth wanting. Virtually everything about the pathless path is paradoxical. haha there you go with the wet blanket on my little mind fire again. |
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Post by enigma on May 3, 2017 14:02:34 GMT -5
Right, mind is not interested in transcending mind. There's no benefit to mind. So who is it that is it disturbed by thoughts and sees a benefit in quiescence? Oddly, perhaps, the mind identified person is disturbed by his own thoughts and enjoys a respite from them. The situation gets out of control because the person doesn't really have control over his thoughts. Typically, however, the breaks are closely monitored for any real danger to the mental structure. Who do you think is disturbed? |
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Post by enigma on May 3, 2017 14:05:16 GMT -5
Okay. 'Movement of attention' doesn't really give me conniption fits, so no biggie.  well that's good, I don't know what they are, but they don't sound like something I want to have either! It's something that sometimes happens at a stag do. |
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Post by zendancer on May 3, 2017 14:05:24 GMT -5
How 'bout the zenny 'just knowing'? I'm uncomfortable with 'unconscious knowing.' The unconscious implies there could be something beneath the surface. It IS beneath the surface. When the body responds without conscious thought, we can call it unconscious knowing. I think the phrases "unconscious knowing," "body knowing," "gnosis," "direct knowing," and "mushin" (no mind) are all pointing to the same thing. Ramana has a quote somewhere about bringing the silence of deep samadhi into the midst of everyday life. He says something about the body being totally functional even though the mind remains quiescent. |
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Post by andrew on May 3, 2017 14:21:13 GMT -5
It IS beneath the surface. When the body responds without conscious thought, we can call it unconscious knowing. When the body responds without conscious thought, that doesn't imply unconsciousness. In other words, being conscious doesn't require thought, does it? There is body responding with thought or without thought. It could also be responding unconsciously with thought (flailing around in a dream), or unconsciously without thought (jerking around in deep sleep or struggling under anesthesia), consciously with thought (clickety clacking on this keyboard), or consciously without thought (*puts shoe on head*). It's the last one I think you are talking about re 'unconscious knowing.' Just seems to me 'knowing' implies consciousness. There's also the kind of knowing in which you know the ground is there beneath your feet every time you take a step. It's not something we have to think about unless approaching the edge of a cliff. Maybe that example already fits in with one of the kinds you described....? |
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Post by Deleted on May 3, 2017 14:23:18 GMT -5
If you believe the thought that you can be veiled and fall into Maya, that will be your experience. Drop that belief and see what happens. Especially the next time you aren't happy with your person. I'm describing my experience. If you think it's a belief that's okay by me. If you know the Self it doesn't matter what you believe or not believe. It's irrelevant because you're not the mind. Who cares what it conjures up. It's not possible to tell someone the truth or show them the truth. You can only point to sign posts. Well sure, why would you want to have an uncertain and unknown experience of flowing harmoniously with life. Especially when you can have the known certainty of the temporal ups and downs of your person? |
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Post by enigma on May 3, 2017 14:26:11 GMT -5
Right, mind is not interested in transcending mind. There's no benefit to mind. Transcending mind, though, can be sought. I have first hand experience with that. ATA-T for example. Mindfulness. Contemplating 'I am Unborn.' Staying with the I Am in hopes that the I Am, too, will be transcended. Meditation mantra with So Ham.... You could object by saying, well 'transcending mind' is not really understood (because it can't be understood). So it's like saying I'm searching for El Dorado (when actually it's NYC). In other words, what is sought is wrapped up in all sorts of imaginary expectations and other illusions. SR must be like such and such. And likewise, while there may be no ultimate benefits for mind, there are indeed expected benefits in what is sought but those benefits are ultimately the fabricated by confusion. Similarly, as source says, it can not be wanted. But yes I do those aforementioned practices because it is wanted. But then y'all can object by saying that this place can not actually be wanted because desire/want are exactly the sort of thing that are transcended. The quest for otherness belies presence, equanimity with what is. So I suppose a takeaway is that any sort of searching, any sort of desiring (for a desireless state), is a good red flag. You've articulated the fundamental conundrum of realizing the obvious. We can ask why the obvious would be difficult to realize. The answer is that it's not. I've said before that the reason the Truth is so seldom found is that nobody is really looking for it. This is why I emphasize the importance of sincerity, honesty and becoming conscious. You think you want the Truth but the evidence that you do not is that you haven't found it. The dilemma is not how to find it, but how to want it. How does an illusion come to want it's own disillusion? This is also why SR is often talked about in terms of an 'accident' or 'calamity' or 'Grace' or some other form of happening that the mind had nothing to do with. While it's true that mind cannot think it's way to the Truth, it can very easily step out of the way, and that's precisely the prescription. So why can't mind get out of it's own way. It doesn't want to. All of this is also why I'm the forum practice curmudgeon. |
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Post by maxdprophet on May 3, 2017 14:34:47 GMT -5
When the body responds without conscious thought, that doesn't imply unconsciousness. In other words, being conscious doesn't require thought, does it? There is body responding with thought or without thought. It could also be responding unconsciously with thought (flailing around in a dream), or unconsciously without thought (jerking around in deep sleep or struggling under anesthesia), consciously with thought (clickety clacking on this keyboard), or consciously without thought (*puts shoe on head*). It's the last one I think you are talking about re 'unconscious knowing.' Just seems to me 'knowing' implies consciousness. There's also the kind of knowing in which you know the ground is there beneath your feet every time you take a step. It's not something we have to think about unless approaching the edge of a cliff. Maybe that example already fits in with one of the kinds you described....? Yea right...walking or driving a well worn commute. If there is any thinking going on it is so slight as not even noticed. Subliminal? Heck if I know. Taxonomizing. |
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Post by maxdprophet on May 3, 2017 14:41:24 GMT -5
Transcending mind, though, can be sought. I have first hand experience with that. ATA-T for example. Mindfulness. Contemplating 'I am Unborn.' Staying with the I Am in hopes that the I Am, too, will be transcended. Meditation mantra with So Ham.... You could object by saying, well 'transcending mind' is not really understood (because it can't be understood). So it's like saying I'm searching for El Dorado (when actually it's NYC). In other words, what is sought is wrapped up in all sorts of imaginary expectations and other illusions. SR must be like such and such. And likewise, while there may be no ultimate benefits for mind, there are indeed expected benefits in what is sought but those benefits are ultimately the fabricated by confusion. Similarly, as source says, it can not be wanted. But yes I do those aforementioned practices because it is wanted. But then y'all can object by saying that this place can not actually be wanted because desire/want are exactly the sort of thing that are transcended. The quest for otherness belies presence, equanimity with what is. So I suppose a takeaway is that any sort of searching, any sort of desiring (for a desireless state), is a good red flag. You've articulated the fundamental conundrum of realizing the obvious. We can ask why the obvious would be difficult to realize. The answer is that it's not. I've said before that the reason the Truth is so seldom found is that nobody is really looking for it. This is why I emphasize the importance of sincerity, honesty and becoming conscious. You think you want the Truth but the evidence that you do not is that you haven't found it. The dilemma is not how to find it, but how to want it. How does an illusion come to want it's own disillusion? This is also why SR is often talked about in terms of an 'accident' or 'calamity' or 'Grace' or some other form of happening that the mind had nothing to do with. While it's true that mind cannot think it's way to the Truth, it can very easily step out of the way, and that's precisely the prescription. So why can't mind get out of it's own way. It doesn't want to. All of this is also why I'm the forum practice curmudgeon. I've noticed some seeming contradictions there on the river bank. But just becoming conscious. But yes, if SDP is a pro-practice curmudgeon you would be the dialectical opposite. But I guess the question would be, why curmudgeon? |
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Post by Deleted on May 3, 2017 14:41:40 GMT -5
The belief and therefore fear of anhilation 'seems' like a real possibility. It will be your experience. But is it true? From the place where you are looking, is where the truth resides. It may take some courage to let go of that fear, but not much, especially for a meditator that is used to letting go of the phenomenal. cuz I've yet to encounter the (made-up) fear that so many point to as a sign. During meditation, I've always found the unpleasant feelings to be the easiest to let go of. It's the interesting/desired ones that I get lost in. You are that place. You cannot not be the place you are looking from. Instead of watching and paying attention to what is arising in front of you, relax your attention into the silent witness of it, and just let whatever is arising to do it's own thing. Relax and be the witness of the witness, be conscious of consciousness, be aware of awareness.....BE....for even one moment .Don't worry what happens, Mr Mind will always be there waiting for you at the door. You can always pick him back up again....if you want to. |
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Post by enigma on May 3, 2017 15:53:27 GMT -5
There's a natural way of using the unconscious, and an unnatural way. The natural way assists in mind/body functioning, and the unnatural way disrupts it. So while it sounds ironic to become conscious, and then go unconscious again, we're actually just talking about cleaning up the process. That would involve spontaneity and the non questioning of it, which is what Zen means when he says don't reflect on it, yeah? Yeah. ZD calls it body knowing, but I see it as the unconscious functioning as it should. |
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