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Post by tzujanli on Jun 13, 2013 16:31:48 GMT -5
Greetings.. Greetings.. We can't go very far exploring this if you're going to create illusions with prejudicial misrepresentations about my thoughts and character.. that would be like me saying: you hold onto your beliefs about oneness like a child holds onto their security blanket, because you're terrorized of actual liberation, terrorized of not having some guru self-image.. Oneness is a thought/idea that people use to wrap-up reality with so they can make-up stories about it.. stories like: "Oneness is the case. Separation is an illusion".. you say it, but there's no 'oneness', you say it's a 'pointer', but it only points to your belief that your idea is true.. you say "separation is an illusion", and try to invalidate the evidence to the contrary, but the evidence is self-evident and so you say words that represent beliefs, but which have no meaning apart from the belief .. i see no sincerity in you exploring what is actually happening, you are here yo defend your beliefs.. i.e.: "Oneness is the case. Separation is an illusion."Aside from any other snake-oil salesman's claim that it's not true the non-believer because 'you don't believe', or because 'you haven't had the realization' that the rest of the superior oneness disciples have had.. aside from 'man-behind-the-curtain' claims, what 'is' oneness other than an idea? why do you see and experience separate volitional entities functioning as a collective whole, and feel compelled to attach to an 'idea' that is conjured-up to describe the belief you 'want' to believe? then, feel threatened enough to create illusions to defend the beliefs? you 'are' a separate volitional person functioning with others as collective whole.. you 'can' exist apart from the conditioning.. snowflake, ocean, water.. Be well.. You (Tzu) ARE conditioning only. Not only can you not exist apart from conditioning, you don't exist with it. There is just the belief that you do, and it's not even 'your' belief. I wish you were capable of understanding the absurdity of your statement.. i will assume, on your behalf, that you don't actually hold this quoted post to represent what is actually the case.. but, i will address them as though you do.. You are choosing to interact/discuss with an entity on an interweb forum, that you do do not believe has any volition for believing or accepting as true or false anything you post.. It is a convenience of necessity to say, "There is just the belief that you do", since you cannot offer examples that make a self-evident case for your beliefs.. You are the irony of your own absurdity, preaching to persons you don't believe exist.. your Medicine Show is unraveling at the seams, sir.. Be well..
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Post by enigma on Jun 13, 2013 16:33:29 GMT -5
Fine with me if somebody wants to talk about separate perspectives. It's when we start talking about separate, volitional persons that I have disagreement. I've been hyper clear that there is no such thang and Tzu has been hyper clear that there is. That's interesting. The idea of there being separate perspectives works okay with you? There are clearly different perspectives, though they are not mutually independent. I'm not going to get all word lawyerish and outlaw the word 'separate' in this context, no.
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Post by enigma on Jun 13, 2013 16:38:12 GMT -5
Whether I agree or disagree with either of those depends on context and word definitions. What I've said is there's no separate, volitional person. The perspective that truth is whatever you decide it is, whatever perspective you happen to take, is one of those delusions. If you were right about that, what would be the point of offering your perspective? Haha, I'll answer that question with a question: What's the point of CREATION? From my perspective, those two are really the same Question, and I don't have an answer for it. Do you? I don't need an answer for it cuz I don't believe truth is relative, and therefore arbitrary. I say there are illusions that lead to suffering, and actualities that can result in freedom, so there is a point to all this.
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Post by andrew on Jun 13, 2013 16:44:16 GMT -5
Let's that that practical example. I have no issue at all with saying that its true that it's Thursday in the US (and UK). But I am not invested in the 'truth' of that idea. NOT because I think ideas are not ultimately true, but because I have a) realized the absolutely subjective nature of ideas/things I'm not sure what you mean here by absolutely subjective. It's not just your personal opinion that it's Thursday. It really is Thursday. If you have an important appointment on Thursday, it might be wise to buy into the truth that today is Thursday. In the context of your appointment, I swear to the Holy Hippo that it really IS Thursday. I don't either. I don't even know what that would look like. No, it's wrong for lots of other reasons that have nothing to do with how free you are. You can prove that its true that its a Thursday? How are you going to prove that? Don't get me wrong, I experience it to be true that its Thursday but just because I experience it to be true, doesn't make it necessarily the truth. You claim that it really actually IS Thursday? What evidence can you show that will prove that? Is there any evidence that you can provide that isn't subjective/relative i.e. that isn't defined by other ideas? Even if I have an appointment on Thursday, and I experience it to be true that its a Thursday, I am not bought into the truth that its a Thursday i.e. I am not attached to the truth that its a Thursday. And that doesn't mean that I believe its true within some context that its a Thursday but can see that its not 'ultimately true' that its a Thursday!! It just means I don't experience a need to believe ideas to be true/false. Collapsing ideas into a greasy spot is the same as 'seeing that no idea is ultimately true'. They both require a fixed truth to be held.
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Post by enigma on Jun 13, 2013 16:44:45 GMT -5
You (Tzu) ARE conditioning only. Not only can you not exist apart from conditioning, you don't exist with it. There is just the belief that you do, and it's not even 'your' belief. If "Tzu" is conditioning only, then what is the not-"Tzu" that is being conditioned? Oh, that's God. (Or the Holy Hippo, if you prefer)
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Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2013 16:46:47 GMT -5
Haha, yeah, the universal relativity of stuff seems to render it irrelevant :-) I like that place. Right, it doesn't become mysteriously unknowable and ambiguously paradoxical, it just becomes irrelevant. And there can be absolute certainty about that. I don't think that anything is is unknowable, in fact, I think that everything IS knowable, even stuff about stuff that we can't imagine yet ;-) But I also haven't found any evidence to say that one truth is truthier than another, even when it seems so by being supported by the clarity of the "Witness" or "Seeing" "What IS" etc. So I guess it's possibly unknowable to know if your truth is truthier than anyone else's, as seemingly strong evidence can be offered for the truthiness of about any position. That's why the best lawyers usually win. When a good lawyer doesn't have a very strong case, they can still win by controlling the conversation ;-)
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Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2013 16:58:30 GMT -5
Haha, I'll answer that question with a question: What's the point of CREATION? From my perspective, those two are really the same Question, and I don't have an answer for it. Do you? I don't need an answer for it cuz I don't believe truth is relative, and therefore arbitrary. I say there are illusions that lead to suffering, and actualities that can result in freedom, so there is a point to all this. If truth isn't arbritrary, or relative, then where or what is it? Also, how does that bit in red square with: "No Volition" If there is no volition, then what IS the point of knowing the difference between illusions and actualities?
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Post by tzujanli on Jun 13, 2013 17:07:13 GMT -5
Greetings..
Life is Life, and it's beautifully elegantly simple.. just look and see for yourself..
People like Enigma, and a few others, need to get all theoretical and create beliefs and illusions that they can hold-on to and feel safe from taking responsibility for their own existence,, they'll pretend they don't have a choice, so when they get spiritually violent they can absolve themselves.. they'll say there is no volition/choice, then tell you to choose to agree with their beliefs..
just let those beliefs go, and see what is actually happening.. if you see suffering, DO something, rather than theorizing a belief system about it.. it's really that simple..
Be well..
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Post by laughter on Jun 13, 2013 17:30:09 GMT -5
What if we replace "No idea is ultimately true" with "Nothing lasts forever" ? Any chance the word-lawyers will be more lenient with it? In terms of talking about ideas, no, it doesn't work. There has to be a clear self-recursion that points to absolute subjectivity.Are you making a distinction between absolute and ultimate? Watching this movement of mind that you're engaged in from the outside reminds me of a prescription that I took away from one of the titles on my narrow and shallow nondual bookshelf, Low's advice to "arouse the mind without resting it on anything". Superficially, it might seem that your movement would fit that bill, but if I were to describe the subjective that I experienced in encountering the perscription for the first time, it's one that is devoid of any and all conceptual reference points, and that's exactly what I've bolded seems to describe. Maybe I've just reversed the sense of what you meant by "there has to be"? To use a physical metaphor, it seems to me that perhaps you've used the paradox as raw material for building one of these:
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Post by andrew on Jun 13, 2013 17:43:11 GMT -5
In terms of talking about ideas, no, it doesn't work. There has to be a clear self-recursion that points to absolute subjectivity.Are you making a distinction between absolute and ultimate? Watching this movement of mind that you're engaged in from the outside reminds me of a prescription that I took away from one of the titles on my narrow and shallow nondual bookshelf, Low's advice to "arouse the mind without resting it on anything". Superficially, it might seem that your movement would fit that bill, but if I were to describe the subjective that I experienced in encountering the perscription for the first time, it's one that is devoid of any and all conceptual reference points, and that's exactly what I've bolded seems to describe. Maybe I've just reversed the sense of what you meant by "there has to be"? To use a physical metaphor, it seems to me that perhaps you've used the paradox as raw material for building one of these: I wouldn't say that I am pointing to 'ultimate subjectivity', no, so I see a subtle difference in definition between 'ultimate' and 'absolute', but not a significant difference. To offer a slight contrast, I have at times spoken of 'pure subjectivity'. The point is to illustrate a subjectivity so very subjective, that its own subjectivity is subjective! Like I've said, I don't have an issue with the idea of 'ultimate' or 'absolute', what I have an issue with is the suggestion that there is necessarily such a 'thing'. I'm only playing with ideas here, so yes, I would say mind is aroused without resting on anything, or at least, without resting on anything in particular. I don't understand the picture. In illustrating the nature of ideas there has to be clear self-recursion BECAUSE of the absolutely/purely subjective nature of ideas. The self-recursion destroys linearity.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2013 17:45:43 GMT -5
Greetings.. Life is Life, and it's beautifully elegantly simple.. just look and see for yourself.. People like Enigma, and a few others, need to get all theoretical and create beliefs and illusions that they can hold-on to and feel safe from taking responsibility for their own existence,, they'll pretend they don't have a choice, so when they get spiritually violent they can absolve themselves.. they'll say there is no volition/choice, then tell you to choose to agree with their beliefs.. Lust let those beliefs go, and see what is actually happening.. if you see suffering, DO something, rather than theorizing a belief system about it.. it's really that simple.. Be well.. Can you honestly, do anything other, than what you are doing?
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Post by tzujanli on Jun 13, 2013 17:51:08 GMT -5
Greetings.. If "Tzu" is conditioning only, then what is the not-"Tzu" that is being conditioned? Oh, that's God. (Or the Holy Hippo, if you prefer) Great, another idea/belief.. what would you do without 'words'? point and smile? point and frown? maybe, actually DO something? Which 'God' is it that you are imagining? Cosmic Puppeteer? money? Lives on Olympus? You're gonna really be amazed when you experience Life through the perspective of a still and silent mind.. those belief just fall away.. Be well..
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Post by enigma on Jun 13, 2013 17:52:41 GMT -5
We would have to negotiate a plea bargain, and that could take months, but we could set the wheels in motion. It looks like the chief prosecutor has already rejected the plea... If the justice system isn't going to work, I guess it's time for anarchy.
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Post by enigma on Jun 13, 2013 17:57:50 GMT -5
Right, it doesn't become mysteriously unknowable and ambiguously paradoxical, it just becomes irrelevant. And there can be absolute certainty about that. I don't think that anything is is unknowable, in fact, I think that everything IS knowable, even stuff about stuff that we can't imagine yet ;-) But I also haven't found any evidence to say that one truth is truthier than another, even when it seems so by being supported by the clarity of the "Witness" or "Seeing" "What IS" etc. So I guess it's possibly unknowable to know if your truth is truthier than anyone else's, as seemingly strong evidence can be offered for the truthiness of about any position. That's why the best lawyers usually win. When a good lawyer doesn't have a very strong case, they can still win by controlling the conversation ;-) I can offer evidence that it's more truthy that it's Thursday than Monday, so I guess some kinds of truthiness are more truthy than others? Do you see this trail leading down the bunny hole?
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Post by tzujanli on Jun 13, 2013 17:58:31 GMT -5
Greetings.. Greetings.. Life is Life, and it's beautifully elegantly simple.. just look and see for yourself.. People like Enigma, and a few others, need to get all theoretical and create beliefs and illusions that they can hold-on to and feel safe from taking responsibility for their own existence,, they'll pretend they don't have a choice, so when they get spiritually violent they can absolve themselves.. they'll say there is no volition/choice, then tell you to choose to agree with their beliefs.. Lust let those beliefs go, and see what is actually happening.. if you see suffering, DO something, rather than theorizing a belief system about it.. it's really that simple.. Be well.. Can you honestly, do anything other, than what you are doing?A word-game, how delightful.. i can choose the next instant of the process to be different from patterning and conditioning that may have previously existed.. Your 'word-game' is silly.. if i'm running, then i stop, then i'm stopped and that's what i'm 'doing', and no matter what is 'happening now', it's happening 'now', but.. yes, i can alter the direction, and change my destiny, everyone 'can'.. Be well..
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