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Post by laughter on Jun 12, 2013 0:40:09 GMT -5
Support? Do you feel under some sort of attack? Geez are you sick or what? He didn't ask for any support - I'm sick of you guys talking like this. I think Peter should allow us to have special Fridays where we can call people whatever the heck we want to. Sick? No I'm fine tonight, no nausea, thank you. How's yer peanut allergy goin'? No he didn't ask you for any support but he thanked you for it.
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Post by silver on Jun 12, 2013 0:55:02 GMT -5
Geez are you sick or what? He didn't ask for any support - I'm sick of you guys talking like this. I think Peter should allow us to have special Fridays where we can call people whatever the heck we want to. Sick? No I'm fine tonight, no nausea, thank you. How's yer peanut allergy goin'? No he didn't ask you for any support but he thanked you for it. Forget all that........I want special Fridays!
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Post by Reefs on Jun 12, 2013 1:10:29 GMT -5
I have no interest and inclination to stand idiocy gladly on the forum at the moment. Probably best for both of us if you talk to people that don't think you are an idiot. Hah, I like the new andrew. I'm not saying you're a jerk or that name calling is necessary but this struck me as one of your more authentic and less filtered posts. Dear Dude/Dudette, Yeah, that was a rare one. Sincerely, The Great Blue Hole Of Belize
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Post by Reefs on Jun 12, 2013 1:14:29 GMT -5
Dear Dude/Dudette, How so? Sincerely, The Great Blue Hole Of Belize Mind you, I'm not going to get anymore than knee-deep in this.......that comment smacks of playing dumb. He does that a lot, I've noticed for quite some time - it's a very childish and simplistic avoidance/manipulation tactic. Dear Dude/Dudette, It rather looks like Tzu is playing dumb and not Top. Top just showed Tzu the logical consequences of what Tzu just said there. Sincerely, The Great Blue Hole Of Belize
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Post by Deleted on Jun 12, 2013 1:15:05 GMT -5
If I could commit the sin of projection here for a sec hehehe Probably not, but support always seems to be welcome when one is defending a position... In the SilentBluenigma ramparts support seems to be so tacit that public acknowledge and gratitude are not needed lol I don't understand what any of you are defending, or why :-) Yeah, I got a special nickname for when that group gets together ... youtu.be/uahsGw3EPVI
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Post by Reefs on Jun 12, 2013 1:15:55 GMT -5
Greetings.. You can redundantly rely on sarcasm to hide your incompetence at playing the role of enforcer? Shocker! Be well.. In all sincerity, how would you square this idea of "teaching a person to see, and then they are liberated" with the idea that noone can set anyone else free as that's something that is always in everyone's own hand? Dear Dude/Dudette, Also, if Tzu really has such tzuper-powers then he's failing miserably. Might ask Carol if she could compile a track record on this. Sincerely, The Great Blue Hole Of Belize
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Post by Reefs on Jun 12, 2013 1:17:51 GMT -5
Greetings.. In all sincerity, how would you square this idea of "teaching a person to see, and then they are liberated" with the idea that noone can set anyone else free as that's something that is always in everyone's own hand? Really? If i give you the tools, and teach you to farm the soil, then leave you to do the farming.. your survival is 'in your own hands', and you are free to choose your crop.. Be well.. Dear Dude/Dudette, You are into manufactured clarity? Sincerely, The Great Blue Hole Of Belize
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Post by topology on Jun 12, 2013 7:53:31 GMT -5
Greetings.. If you go back to where I first replied and highlighted your comment, it was focussed on the difference between telling someone what to see (fooling them for a day) versus teaching them how to see. I take telling someone how one perceives things as mostly telling them what to see and not teaching them how to see. How would you go about teaching someone to see? Why do you 'take' "telling someone how one perceives things as mostly telling them what to see"? are you aware that you are telling me how you are perceiving 'Tzu'? do you realize how often people tell each other how they perceive things, and.. especially here at ST, there is a focused effort by some to tell others how they see 'oneness' and 'non-duality'.. If someone is going to engage what you say and part of what you say is an assertion about how the world appears to you, then that person has to wrestle with your perception and either agree with it, argue with it, or disconnect from it and ignore it. You can vary the degree of strength (certainty) of your assertion which varies the degree to which someone will argue, agree, or ignore. Have you looked into Mirror Neurons and the idea of Trans Personal space? Mirror neurons recognize actions but do not distinguish between actor and perceiver. When you assert your perception, I experience it as an assertion about the truth of my experience as well. If it agrees, then it stands. If it disagrees then it creates cognitive dissonance which evokes it's own kind of fight or flight response, to argue or to disconnect and ignore. You tell me how you believe I am in most of our interactions. I am not the one that expressed the value of not telling someone how to perceive the world (calling it fooling them). Wrestling with that cognitive dissonance is essential for learning how to see clearly. Wrestling with other people's perceptions to see if they are true or where they fall apart is critical for the development of one's own insight and intuition. If someone is learning to see, they need people to challenge their assertions and to wrestle with the assertions of others. The only fooling that happens is when the listener accepts what is said without critically thinking about it. Tzu, you have your own filters when it comes to me and many of the people here. You advocate dropping beliefs, but then you hold onto your own beliefs about what is true or false and who is wrong and right. You make assumptions about the mental state (that these statements are beliefs) of others. You advocate letting go, but have you taken that critical eye and examined what is available for you to let go of? Yes, which requires challenge that person's existing perception with the possibility of alternate perception. How do you know you are seeing clearly and that certain others are not? I am sincerely interested in clarity as well. What you are interprettig as scoring points, if you go back and read it, have all been about the factors that are skewing clear perception. But you are not engaging the challenges as to whether or not you are seeing clearly as such but treat them as personal attacks or as if I had a need to be right or dominate you. I am all about examining what might be skewing people's perceptions and would love to actually engage you over the subject of what might be skewing either of our perceptions so long as you are open to self-examination as well.
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Post by tzujanli on Jun 12, 2013 8:04:36 GMT -5
Greetings.. Greetings.. Really? If i give you the tools, and teach you to farm the soil, then leave you to do the farming.. your survival is 'in your own hands', and you are free to choose your crop.. Be well.. Dear Dude/Dudette, You are into manufactured clarity? Sincerely, The Great Blue Hole Of Belize You are into self-delusion? Be well..
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Post by tzujanli on Jun 12, 2013 8:41:03 GMT -5
Greetings.. Greetings.. Why do you 'take' "telling someone how one perceives things as mostly telling them what to see"? are you aware that you are telling me how you are perceiving 'Tzu'? do you realize how often people tell each other how they perceive things, and.. especially here at ST, there is a focused effort by some to tell others how they see 'oneness' and 'non-duality'.. If someone is going to engage what you say and part of what you say is an assertion about how the world appears to you, then that person has to wrestle with your perception and either agree with it, argue with it, or disconnect from it and ignore it. You can vary the degree of strength (certainty) of your assertion which varies the degree to which someone will argue, agree, or ignore. Have you looked into Mirror Neurons and the idea of Trans Personal space? Mirror neurons recognize actions but do not distinguish between actor and perceiver. When you assert your perception, I experience it as an assertion about the truth of my experience as well. If it agrees, then it stands. If it disagrees then it creates cognitive dissonance which evokes it's own kind of fight or flight response, to argue or to disconnect and ignore. You tell me how you believe I am in most of our interactions. I am not the one that expressed the value of not telling someone how to perceive the world (calling it fooling them). Wrestling with that cognitive dissonance is essential for learning how to see clearly. Wrestling with other people's perceptions to see if they are true or where they fall apart is critical for the development of one's own insight and intuition. If someone is learning to see, they need people to challenge their assertions and to wrestle with the assertions of others. The only fooling that happens is when the listener accepts what is said without critically thinking about it. Tzu, you have your own filters when it comes to me and many of the people here. You advocate dropping beliefs, but then you hold onto your own beliefs about what is true or false and who is wrong and right. You make assumptions about the mental state (that these statements are beliefs) of others. You advocate letting go, but have you taken that critical eye and examined what is available for you to let go of? Yes, which requires challenge that person's existing perception with the possibility of alternate perception. How do you know you are seeing clearly and that certain others are not? I am sincerely interested in clarity as well. What you are interprettig as scoring points, if you go back and read it, have all been about the factors that are skewing clear perception. But you are not engaging the challenges as to whether or not you are seeing clearly as such but treat them as personal attacks or as if I had a need to be right or dominate you. I am all about examining what might be skewing people's perceptions and would love to actually engage you over the subject of what might be skewing either of our perceptions so long as you are open to self-examination as well.Hi Top: My understanding is simple.. just let go of attachments like beliefs, even 'knowing'.. i experience clarity when i suspend the mind's 'thinking' processes.. i experience some challenges when intentionally recalling those direct experiences for the purposes of fitting them into my private mindscape's 'intentional' interaction with its environment.. this is when it is useful to have experience with 'feeling' energetic resonance, such that fitting experiences into the mindscape's 'understanding' is energetically coherent with what is actually happening.. that same sensitivity to energetic resonances also counsels the mind's adjustments and revisions to the mindscape and the understandings.. I don't understand/believe that i am different or have different abilities than others, i understand that others have the same capacity to suspend their thinking processes.. i hear many different 'perspectives', and when hearing those perspectives i 'see clearly' that they are influenced by people's beliefs/attachments.. and, i 'see clearly' that the conflicts between beliefs/attachments are a source of suffering in the human experience.. I suggest that what people think 'about' their direct experience, i.e.: Life happening as an interconnected functioning whole, but thought 'about' as 'oneness' excluding the obvious parts interacting.. that is a degree of separation from clarity.. There's an open honest account of my understanding, i'm trusting you are sincere.. we'll see how others interact, too.. Be well..
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Post by topology on Jun 12, 2013 8:49:56 GMT -5
In all sincerity, how would you square this idea of "teaching a person to see, and then they are liberated" with the idea that noone can set anyone else free as that's something that is always in everyone's own hand? Granted, he made an oversimplified statement.........but aren't you working overtime to misunderstand / misconstrue this simple statement? You do understand what is meant by "Teach a man to fish and he can feed himself" don't you? Learning how to fish by sitting at a desk in primary school and hearing someone lecture about how to fish doesn't give you the ability to show up on the dock with a tackle box, know how to prep the line for the type of fish you want to catch, etc. There is a whole lot more to "teaching a man to fish" than saying "you should fish for your meals". And having the knowledge alone isn't enough, the person needs to change their lifestyle and diet to accommodate the practice of fishing as a primary source of food. The phrase "teach a man to fish..." is an over simplification of what is required. And if we look at Jesus, the source of the quote, we can question whether or not any of the apostles truly learned to fish properly despite the time they spent with the expert fisher.
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Post by Beingist on Jun 12, 2013 8:58:23 GMT -5
Granted, he made an oversimplified statement.........but aren't you working overtime to misunderstand / misconstrue this simple statement? You do understand what is meant by "Teach a man to fish and he can feed himself" don't you? Learning how to fish by sitting at a desk in primary school and hearing someone lecture about how to fish doesn't give you the ability to show up on the dock with a tackle box, know how to prep the line for the type of fish you want to catch, etc. There is a whole lot more to "teaching a man to fish" than saying "you should fish for your meals". And having the knowledge alone isn't enough, the person needs to change their lifestyle and diet to accommodate the practice of fishing as a primary source of food. The phrase "teach a man to fish..." is an over simplification of what is required. And if we look at Jesus, the source of the quote, we can question whether or not any of the apostles truly learned to fish properly despite the time they spent with the expert fisher. Funny, I don't recall anything in the Gospels about teaching a man to fish. And, if it IS there, one may also consider that he multiplied the fishes and the loaves to feed the multitudes. He didn't teach the multitudes how to fish.
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Post by tzujanli on Jun 12, 2013 9:08:02 GMT -5
Greetings.. Granted, he made an oversimplified statement.........but aren't you working overtime to misunderstand / misconstrue this simple statement? You do understand what is meant by "Teach a man to fish and he can feed himself" don't you? Learning how to fish by sitting at a desk in primary school and hearing someone lecture about how to fish doesn't give you the ability to show up on the dock with a tackle box, know how to prep the line for the type of fish you want to catch, etc. There is a whole lot more to "teaching a man to fish" than saying "you should fish for your meals". And having the knowledge alone isn't enough, the person needs to change their lifestyle and diet to accommodate the practice of fishing as a primary source of food. The phrase "teach a man to fish..." is an over simplification of what is required. And if we look at Jesus, the source of the quote, we can question whether or not any of the apostles truly learned to fish properly despite the time they spent with the expert fisher. I had hoped that the reader would understand the process of 'teaching someone to farm the soil' is not much different from teaching them to suspend the thinking process.. at some point, those claiming to want to learn actually have to DO something, they actually have to 'let go', just long enough to grasp the process and effect.. mostly though, i see people arguing for the beliefs they are attached to, or looking for reasons not to actually DO what the teaching requires.. Be well..
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Post by Deleted on Jun 12, 2013 9:11:59 GMT -5
Seems like human beings are naturally generous and compassionate, when they find something good, the natural inclination is to want to share it, where it seems to start to get a bit silly, is when two people find something good that is different than, or even opposite to the other.
For example, Tzu finds the color white to be good, and Enigma finds black to be....they each start telling people about how good each color is, and then bump into each other.
Next thing you know, a conversation ensues about which is gooderer, where each eventually gets entrenched in defending their position, and pointing out the other's delusionalness
Makes for good theater :-)
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Post by Deleted on Jun 12, 2013 9:17:25 GMT -5
Granted, he made an oversimplified statement.........but aren't you working overtime to misunderstand / misconstrue this simple statement? You do understand what is meant by "Teach a man to fish and he can feed himself" don't you? Learning how to fish by sitting at a desk in primary school and hearing someone lecture about how to fish doesn't give you the ability to show up on the dock with a tackle box, know how to prep the line for the type of fish you want to catch, etc. There is a whole lot more to "teaching a man to fish" than saying "you should fish for your meals". And having the knowledge alone isn't enough, the person needs to change their lifestyle and diet to accommodate the practice of fishing as a primary source of food. The phrase "teach a man to fish..." is an over simplification of what is required. And if we look at Jesus, the source of the quote, we can question whether or not any of the apostles truly learned to fish properly despite the time they spent with the expert fisher. Haha....your making a distinction between: Teaching a person TO fish, and Teaching a person HOW to fish. Back in the day, I use to try and teach folks around here HOW to fish, but that turned into a debate about what is the best "How". If you take a position, someone somewhere will surely oppose it lol But maybe whether you decide to defend your position or not is a useful self barometer. I dunno.
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