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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2013 0:56:09 GMT -5
How did this experiment make you feel....in my experience, if it feels good then you are probably going in the right direction. Dunno if I agree with some of the posters above that seem to imply that there is some kind of prerequisite to deciding to be innocent though....seems to me like a choice was available and you made it, and it felt good. I equate innocence to the simplicity of not judging and not knowing, a kind of openness that doesn't need to understand anything.....for me, not knowing, and being cool with that, and not judging, and being cool with that, allows an opening, a gap, and: equals innocence.... and anyone can decide to let go of judgment and the desire to know and understand you can assign all the metaphysical mumbo jumbo requirements or prerequisites you want, but to me that just complicates what you already did....and therefore, removes you from innocence....what's the point of that....if you felt good in your non-judgmental innocence, why move? I like that part where you said: "It struck me as something "to do"......I don't think this stuff should be approached in such a life or death way as we sometimes make this all out to be.... Nature seems to give of sign posts if you pay attention a little bit.....if something feels peaceful and harmonious, then you are probably moving in a kind of harmony that will get you where this path takes you, and if something feels disturbing or uncomfortable then you might want to try something else, a different approach. Hey steve ... without advancing an argument to this effect, I have a sincere question about what you've said. Do you perceive how someone else might perceive that feeling good is a departure from innocence in and of itself? Sure, but then the question of what is your meaning of "innocence" comes into play (are you assigning some grand cosmic spiritual meaning to it, or are you talking about the innocence of a babe, but with awareness?), and also what does feeling good actually mean to you or me, i.e. the difference in pleasure versus peace...all of which is a dissection of what seemed to be a simple and nice experience of unwinding, or opening for jazz, a letting go of something. Why not just surrending the idea of knowing, and let feeling guide you instead of knowledge?
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Post by laughter on Jun 7, 2013 1:10:25 GMT -5
Hey steve ... without advancing an argument to this effect, I have a sincere question about what you've said. Do you perceive how someone else might perceive that feeling good is a departure from innocence in and of itself? Sure, but then the question of what is your meaning of "innocence" comes into play (are you assigning some grand cosmic spiritual meaning to it, or are you talking about the innocence of a babe, but with awareness?), and also what does feeling good actually mean to you or me, i.e. the difference in pleasure versus peace...all of which is a dissection of what seemed to be a simple and nice experience of unwinding, or opening for jazz, a letting go of something. Why not just surrending the idea of knowing, and let feeling guide you instead of knowledge? The only meaning that need come into play is the one you offered: I equate innocence to the simplicity of not judging and not knowing, a kind of openness that doesn't need to understand anything ... the rest of what you said in that para ... Yes, the body is more honest in it's replies. The mind takes the word innocence and plays games with it.
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Post by laughter on Jun 7, 2013 1:15:28 GMT -5
Greetings.. The still mind is an innocent mind. no beliefs in 'only' this or that.. no attachments to this 'way' or that 'way'.. Conditions/requirements are not evidence of innocence or clarity, they indicate a 'self' separate from from others, claiming a choice between conditions/requirements while disclaiming volition.. a 'self'-evident contradiction.. Be well.. In your estimation, was enigma conscious of making a statement that could imply that contradiction?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2013 1:16:50 GMT -5
How did this experiment make you feel....in my experience, if it feels good then you are probably going in the right direction. Dunno if I agree with some of the posters above that seem to imply that there is some kind of prerequisite to deciding to be innocent though....seems to me like a choice was available and you made it, and it felt good. I equate innocence to the simplicity of not judging and not knowing, a kind of openness that doesn't need to understand anything.....for me, not knowing, and being cool with that, and not judging, and being cool with that, allows an opening, a gap, and: equals innocence.... and anyone can decide to let go of judgment and the desire to know and understand you can assign all the metaphysical mumbo jumbo requirements or prerequisites you want, but to me that just complicates what you already did....and therefore, removes you from innocence....what's the point of that....if you felt good in your non-judgmental innocence, why move? I like that part where you said: "It struck me as something "to do"......I don't think this stuff should be approached in such a life or death way as we sometimes make this all out to be.... Nature seems to give of sign posts if you pay attention a little bit.....if something feels peaceful and harmonious, then you are probably moving in a kind of harmony that will get you where this path takes you, and if something feels disturbing or uncomfortable then you might want to try something else, a different approach. Hey steve ... without advancing an argument to this effect, I have a sincere question about what you've said. Do you perceive how someone else might perceive that feeling good is a departure from innocence in and of itself? Sure, but then we have to talk about what innocence means to you, and what innocence means to me, and what feeling good is, i.e. short term pleasure versus an abiding feeling of harmony etc....all of which advances knowledge and removes us from innocence right? Right now, I have no idea what innocence is, or what cosmic implications feeling good has....I almost did there for a second, but then I let it go :-) That felt better....and my ears started ringing, which is usually a good sign.
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Post by laughter on Jun 7, 2013 1:19:19 GMT -5
Hey steve ... without advancing an argument to this effect, I have a sincere question about what you've said. Do you perceive how someone else might perceive that feeling good is a departure from innocence in and of itself? Sure, but then we have to talk about what innocence means to you, and what innocence means to me, and what feeling good is, i.e. short term pleasure versus an abiding feeling of harmony etc....all of which advances knowledge and removes us from innocence right? Right now, I have no idea what innocence is, or what cosmic implications feeling good has... .I almost did there for a second, but then I let it go :-)That felt better....and my ears started ringing, which is usually a good sign. Hey I'm with ya' bro'. Nothing wrong with thinking. Of any kind. Witnessing is being.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2013 1:22:39 GMT -5
Sure, but then the question of what is your meaning of "innocence" comes into play (are you assigning some grand cosmic spiritual meaning to it, or are you talking about the innocence of a babe, but with awareness?), and also what does feeling good actually mean to you or me, i.e. the difference in pleasure versus peace...all of which is a dissection of what seemed to be a simple and nice experience of unwinding, or opening for jazz, a letting go of something. Why not just surrending the idea of knowing, and let feeling guide you instead of knowledge? The only meaning that need come into play is the one you offered: ... the rest of what you said in that para ... Yes, the body is more honest in it's replies. The mind takes the word innocence and plays games with it. I wish I could help you more or say something that in some way engendered clarity for you if that's what you are looking for, but I just don't know enough to make a good comment on the first two replies there....as to the third....true dat :-) as an aside...I was still editing and clarifying my thoughts when you quoted me....too fast for me lol the edited version is below...well, above now.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2013 1:37:05 GMT -5
Sure, but then we have to talk about what innocence means to you, and what innocence means to me, and what feeling good is, i.e. short term pleasure versus an abiding feeling of harmony etc....all of which advances knowledge and removes us from innocence right? Right now, I have no idea what innocence is, or what cosmic implications feeling good has... .I almost did there for a second, but then I let it go :-)That felt better....and my ears started ringing, which is usually a good sign. Hey I'm with ya' bro'. Nothing wrong with thinking. Of any kind. Witnessing is being. Yeah, I got nothing against thinking in general, I just don't really see much point to it lately, unless I'm trying to create something that I decide to need, like enough money to help my wife feel more secure or something. Do you equate thinking with witnessing? witnessing use to be a big thing of mine, something I really cared about....now, its more like, I'm cool with just being as I am unless my family needs something, then a movement into a conscious creative decision happens.....thats good enough for me. I can see how other people are in a different place that's just as valuable and relevant.
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Post by laughter on Jun 7, 2013 1:38:43 GMT -5
Hey I'm with ya' bro'. Nothing wrong with thinking. Of any kind. Witnessing is being. Yeah, I got nothing against thinking in general, I just don't really see much point to it lately, unless I'm trying to create something that I decide to need, like enough money to help my wife feel more secure or something. Do you equate thinking with witnessing?
witnessing use to be a big thing of mine, something I really cared about....now, its more like, I'm cool with just being as I am unless my family needs something, then a movement into a conscious creative decision happens.....thats good enough for me. I can see how other people are in a different place that's just as valuable and relevant. No.
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Post by amit on Jun 7, 2013 3:49:12 GMT -5
It struck me as something "to do". To look at the world and its people, including myself, as innocent. Takes a whole lotta judgement away. Kinda scary. Bit it feels like it's what's "needed". Any thoughts? Hi jazz, That does link with the idea that there are no separate persons with choice or responsibility which is the opposite of the attitude taken by society and its legal systems, unless you are certified mad or mentally handicapped. They still lock you up but there's no blame attached. If society was based on the concept of nonduality, they may still need to lock up some of us to protect people and property but there would be no guilt involved. The trials would be much more civilized I imagine:) amit
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Post by tzujanli on Jun 7, 2013 8:49:11 GMT -5
Greetings.. Greetings.. The still mind is an innocent mind. no beliefs in 'only' this or that.. no attachments to this 'way' or that 'way'.. Conditions/requirements are not evidence of innocence or clarity, they indicate a 'self' separate from from others, claiming a choice between conditions/requirements while disclaiming volition.. a 'self'-evident contradiction.. Be well.. In your estimation, was enigma conscious of making a statement that could imply that contradiction? I don't know.. he is driven by his attachment to beliefs, so much so that he will employ contradictions and inconsistencies in the service of those beliefs and refuse to address the difference between his beliefs and what 'is'.. is he 'conscious' of it, his skill for crafting illusions, rationalizations, and imagined justifications suggests a high degree of probability, but i don't 'know'.. Be well..
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Post by enigma on Jun 7, 2013 10:48:39 GMT -5
How did this experiment make you feel....in my experience, if it feels good then you are probably going in the right direction. Dunno if I agree with some of the posters above that seem to imply that there is some kind of prerequisite to deciding to be innocent though....seems to me like a choice was available and you made it, and it felt good. I equate innocence to the simplicity of not judging and not knowing, a kind of openness that doesn't need to understand anything.....for me, not knowing, and being cool with that, and not judging, and being cool with that, allows an opening, a gap, and: equals innocence.... and anyone can decide to let go of judgment and the desire to know and understand you can assign all the metaphysical mumbo jumbo requirements or prerequisites you want, but to me that just complicates what you already did....and therefore, removes you from innocence....what's the point of that....if you felt good in your non-judgmental innocence, why move? I like that part where you said: "It struck me as something "to do"......I don't think this stuff should be approached in such a life or death way as we sometimes make this all out to be.... If something feels peaceful and harmonious, then you are probably moving in a kind of harmony that will get you where this path takes you. I basically agree with what you say about innocence. It's more about what's not present, not being done, not thought or believed or known. As such, it can't be accomplished as one cannot accomplish an absence or an unknowing. Hencely, knowledge is transcended, which means, for example, that we know of good and evil, but we understand the nature of it and have ceased to struggle to make it other than it is. One cannot return to innocence once lost, and the direction is always forward. I would also say that if it feels good you are probly going in the wrong direction as what is apparently being satisfied are needs that originate in an imaginary self. The Peace that passeth all understandingeth is a different matter, and doesn't qualify as a goal for the separate self precisely because it doesn't satisfy those needs of the separate self.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2013 11:09:45 GMT -5
How did this experiment make you feel....in my experience, if it feels good then you are probably going in the right direction. Dunno if I agree with some of the posters above that seem to imply that there is some kind of prerequisite to deciding to be innocent though....seems to me like a choice was available and you made it, and it felt good. I equate innocence to the simplicity of not judging and not knowing, a kind of openness that doesn't need to understand anything.....for me, not knowing, and being cool with that, and not judging, and being cool with that, allows an opening, a gap, and: equals innocence.... and anyone can decide to let go of judgment and the desire to know and understand you can assign all the metaphysical mumbo jumbo requirements or prerequisites you want, but to me that just complicates what you already did....and therefore, removes you from innocence....what's the point of that....if you felt good in your non-judgmental innocence, why move? I like that part where you said: "It struck me as something "to do"......I don't think this stuff should be approached in such a life or death way as we sometimes make this all out to be.... If something feels peaceful and harmonious, then you are probably moving in a kind of harmony that will get you where this path takes you. I basically agree with what you say about innocence. It's more about what's not present, not being done, not thought or believed or known. As such, it can't be accomplished as one cannot accomplish an absence or an unknowing. Hencely, knowledge is transcended, which means, for example, that we know of good and evil, but we understand the nature of it and have ceased to struggle to make it other than it is. One cannot return to innocence once lost, and the direction is always forward. I would also say that if it feels good you are probly going in the wrong direction as what is apparently being satisfied are needs that originate in an imaginary self. The Peace that passeth all understandingeth is a different matter, and doesn't qualify as a goal for the separate self precisely because it doesn't satisfy those needs of the separate self. Well, we are kinda back to defining what "feeling good" means, in my meaning I guess I'm talking about "the peace that passeth understandingeth" lol If innocence cannot be gained because its more of an absence, or letting go of something, then how can it be irrevocably lost, with the only option being to move forward....In my experience, you can just stop at anytime, let go of some things, like knowledge, judgement, understanding, etc, and "just be" innocent any time you want.....the idea that one MUST go forward all the time might make that more difficult though....maybe we don't have to always go forward?...from a practical standpoint, I find that letting go of judgement makes it easier to let go of knowledge and understanding, but there is really nothing other than your own momentum that keeps you from letting go of all three at once. Also, I don't know about this transcending business, seems to complicated to bother with ;-)
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Post by silver on Jun 7, 2013 11:20:27 GMT -5
I basically agree with what you say about innocence. It's more about what's not present, not being done, not thought or believed or known. As such, it can't be accomplished as one cannot accomplish an absence or an unknowing. Hencely, knowledge is transcended, which means, for example, that we know of good and evil, but we understand the nature of it and have ceased to struggle to make it other than it is. One cannot return to innocence once lost, and the direction is always forward. I would also say that if it feels good you are probly going in the wrong direction as what is apparently being satisfied are needs that originate in an imaginary self. The Peace that passeth all understandingeth is a different matter, and doesn't qualify as a goal for the separate self precisely because it doesn't satisfy those needs of the separate self. Well, we are kinda back to defining what "feeling good" means, in my meaning I guess I'm talking about "the peace that passeth understandingeth" lol If innocence cannot be gained because its more of an absence, or letting go of something, then how can it be irrevocably lost, with the only option being to move forward....In my experience, you can just stop at anytime, let go of some things, like knowledge, judgement, understanding, etc, and "just be" innocent any time you want.....the idea that one MUST go forward all the time might make that more difficult though....maybe we don't have to always go forward?...from a practical standpoint, I find that letting go of judgement makes it easier to let go of knowledge and understanding, but there is really nothing other than your own momentum that keeps you from letting go of all three at once. Also, I don't know about this transcending business, seems to complicated to bother with ;-) I definitely don't agree with "One cannot return to innocence once lost, and the direction is always forward" - I mean, it's not like virginity or whether one is baptized or not or some such. Innocence isn't about having or not having knowledge at all, it's a frame of mind / attitude - but it's more.
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Post by enigma on Jun 7, 2013 11:24:38 GMT -5
Greetings.. In your estimation, was enigma conscious of making a statement that could imply that contradiction? I don't know.. he is driven by his attachment to beliefs, so much so that he will employ contradictions and inconsistencies in the service of those beliefs and refuse to address the difference between his beliefs and what 'is'.. is he 'conscious' of it, his skill for crafting illusions, rationalizations, and imagined justifications suggests a high degree of probability, but i don't 'know'.. Be well.. I didn't know your comments were about ME, ME, ME. Hehe. I don't believe I'm attached to any beliefs. I just talk about obvious stuff. The contradictions and inconsistencies are the result of your struggle with the obvious. Both oneness and separation is Contradiction with a capital 'C'.
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Post by tzujanli on Jun 7, 2013 11:31:19 GMT -5
Greetings.. Greetings.. I don't know.. he is driven by his attachment to beliefs, so much so that he will employ contradictions and inconsistencies in the service of those beliefs and refuse to address the difference between his beliefs and what 'is'.. is he 'conscious' of it, his skill for crafting illusions, rationalizations, and imagined justifications suggests a high degree of probability, but i don't 'know'.. Be well.. I didn't know your comments were about ME, ME, ME. Hehe. I don't believe I'm attached to any beliefs. I just talk about obvious stuff. The contradictions and inconsistencies are the result of your struggle with the obvious. Both oneness and separation is Contradiction with a capital 'C'. If you're attached to one or the other, it might seem like a contradiction.. let go of beliefs and attachments, look at what is actually happening, and 'both' are self-evident observations within the context of labels and descriptions.. Be well..
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