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Post by enigma on Jun 9, 2013 11:40:07 GMT -5
Nothing is ultimately true... That is a contradiction that proves the opposite. It's not actually a contradiction, but continued mind involvement in the issue will make it seem so.
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Post by andrew on Jun 9, 2013 11:56:03 GMT -5
The idea that 'nothing is ultimately true' both presupposes and affirms the existence of an alleged 'ultimate', when 'ultimate' is just another idea to be bandied and played with. As such, 'nothing is ultimately true' is both contradictory and deceitful. I guess it could be argued that the idea of an 'ultimate' is also not 'ultimately true' but...oh look...an 'ultimate' is still affirmed and posited there as something more than just an idea. If we are going to talk about the nature of ideas, then Niz nails it with ''everything is a play of ideas''. Notice that an alleged 'ultimate' is not affirmed in that statement, so ideas are left floundering amongst themselves without some kind of alleged foundation to support them. And the point of the realization is to leave both knowledge and mind floundering, i.e not supported nor backed up by some kind of actually existing 'ultimate'.
By the way Steve, its good to see you on the forum.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2013 13:38:18 GMT -5
The idea that 'nothing is ultimately true' both presupposes and affirms the existence of an alleged 'ultimate', when 'ultimate' is just another idea to be bandied and played with. As such, 'nothing is ultimately true' is both contradictory and deceitful. I guess it could be argued that the idea of an 'ultimate' is also not 'ultimately true' but...oh look...an 'ultimate' is still affirmed and posited there as something more than just an idea. If we are going to talk about the nature of ideas, then Niz nails it with ''everything is a play of ideas''. Notice that an alleged 'ultimate' is not affirmed in that statement, so ideas are left floundering amongst themselves without some kind of alleged foundation to support them. And the point of the realization is to leave both knowledge and mind floundering, i.e not supported nor backed up by some kind of actually existing 'ultimate'. By the way Steve, its good to see you on the forum. Hi Andrew, and thanks, You make a good point, the statement I made earlier: "in my experience, EVERYTHING is true, or EVERYTHING is false, except that from some perspectives SOME things are true while some things ARE false." is definitely a "knowing" of a kind of truth about something lol Thanks for showing me that I was "knowing" something there. when clearly, I don't know
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2013 13:45:25 GMT -5
(Contains Psychoanalysis)I haven't heard anybody suggest otherwise. In your attempt to simplify, you seem to find complication where there is none. Actually, in my very next post, I think you'll find that I "forgave" the idea of an infants innocence. And by forgave, I mean in the Aramiac meaning of the word shbag, which Jesus used a lot. Shbag has been translated into English as "forgive", but in aramaic (the languagetgatjesusspoke) it's more accurate translation is: to let go of, to undo, to untie. In short, yes, I was making complications where there are none (and was back then with that whole "contains psychoanalysis" thingy) wait.....I don't know that either.... Peace be unto you ;-)
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2013 13:49:36 GMT -5
Haha, it's just an assumption that infants are innocent....I love this place, I'll call it the idea shredder lol Wow, this exchange really makes me sit forward in my seat...the baby did it! They just look innocent. Next thought I had is well, there is no such thing as 'innocence' just as there is no such thing as 'guilt' - its opposite. Fascinating. Hehehe yeah, "I don't know, and being cool with not knowing"....seems to collapse everything down to that greasy lil spot that Enigma talks about. cept it doesn't seem "greasy", and I can't actually identify a "spot"
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Post by laughter on Jun 9, 2013 13:50:34 GMT -5
Nothing is ultimately true... That is a contradiction that proves the opposite. Just the liars paradox JLU ... just a statement that words and ideas about the ineffable can only point at the ineffable indirectly.
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Post by silver on Jun 9, 2013 13:53:34 GMT -5
Wow, this exchange really makes me sit forward in my seat...the baby did it! They just look innocent. Next thought I had is well, there is no such thing as 'innocence' just as there is no such thing as 'guilt' - its opposite. Fascinating. Hehehe .......but then I thought what do I know?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2013 13:56:34 GMT -5
.......but then I thought what do I know? LoL nothing, are you cool with that?
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Post by Beingist on Jun 9, 2013 14:01:16 GMT -5
Wow, this exchange really makes me sit forward in my seat...the baby did it! They just look innocent. Next thought I had is well, there is no such thing as 'innocence' just as there is no such thing as 'guilt' - its opposite. Fascinating. Hehehe yeah, "I don't know, and being cool with not knowing"....seems to collapse everything down to that greasy lil spot that Enigma talks about. cept it doesn't seem "greasy", and I can't actually identify a "spot" Indeed, I've long been rather offended by the advisement to become a grease spot.
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Post by laughter on Jun 9, 2013 14:05:55 GMT -5
Greetings.. The still mind is a return to innocence, an opportunity to see/experience without the distortions of beliefs and knowings.. Be well.. I spose that's a valid point, as long as the mind never moves again. However, you won't be nearly as functional as an infant, who's mind actually IS moving. The moment yours moves, everything you think you know will come flooding back, and you'll start typing about it on spearachuul forums. he was probably distracted by something out of the frame!
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Post by andrew on Jun 9, 2013 14:24:49 GMT -5
The idea that 'nothing is ultimately true' both presupposes and affirms the existence of an alleged 'ultimate', when 'ultimate' is just another idea to be bandied and played with. As such, 'nothing is ultimately true' is both contradictory and deceitful. I guess it could be argued that the idea of an 'ultimate' is also not 'ultimately true' but...oh look...an 'ultimate' is still affirmed and posited there as something more than just an idea. If we are going to talk about the nature of ideas, then Niz nails it with ''everything is a play of ideas''. Notice that an alleged 'ultimate' is not affirmed in that statement, so ideas are left floundering amongst themselves without some kind of alleged foundation to support them. And the point of the realization is to leave both knowledge and mind floundering, i.e not supported nor backed up by some kind of actually existing 'ultimate'. By the way Steve, its good to see you on the forum. Hi Andrew, and thanks, You make a good point, the statement I made earlier: "in my experience, EVERYTHING is true, or EVERYTHING is false, except that from some perspectives SOME things are true while some things ARE false." is definitely a "knowing" of a kind of truth about something lol Thanks for showing me that I was "knowing" something there. when clearly, I don't know Cool. Though I did resonate with what you said there ''in my experience,....''. There are often times when I experience something to be true (or false), but there is no single truth that I hold onto as being true beyond the moment. For me, a 'truth' comes and goes. In that sense, I agree its all equally true, or equally false. I forget your exact words, but I particularly resonated with what you said about choosing beliefs that work for you, for example, a belief in God. 'Faith' is also a key idea for me.
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Post by silver on Jun 9, 2013 14:31:11 GMT -5
Hehehe yeah, "I don't know, and being cool with not knowing"....seems to collapse everything down to that greasy lil spot that Enigma talks about. cept it doesn't seem "greasy", and I can't actually identify a "spot" Indeed, I've long been rather offended by the advisement to become a grease spot. I think he could've chosen some other phrase instead of 'greasy spot' - sounds like he's contemptful of that 'greasy spot' - sounds very yucky.
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Post by laughter on Jun 9, 2013 14:37:56 GMT -5
Wow, this exchange really makes me sit forward in my seat...the baby did it! They just look innocent. Next thought I had is well, there is no such thing as 'innocence' just as there is no such thing as 'guilt' - its opposite. Fascinating. Hehehe yeah, "I don't know, and being cool with not knowing"....seems to collapse everything down to that greasy lil spot that Enigma talks about. cept it doesn't seem "greasy", and I can't actually identify a "spot"<capt_obvious>Well you see you kind of just did right there by speaking </capt_obvious> It's what Bluenigma mean when they ask you "do you know you exist?" and there's a really comic version of this that happens when tzu tells enigma that he just made a choice to say that there is no volitional person.
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Post by laughter on Jun 9, 2013 14:39:43 GMT -5
Indeed, I've long been rather offended by the advisement to become a grease spot. I think he could've chosen some other phrase instead of 'greasy spot' - sounds like he's contemptful of that 'greasy spot' - sounds very yucky. On one hand it's a sort of cultural counterpoint, also embodied quite well by your buddy tzu, to the whole peace-love-understanding-blissful-everything-is-beautiful-hippie-smoke-in crowd and then on the other hand ... it's sort of like a litmus test ...
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Post by andrew on Jun 9, 2013 14:41:31 GMT -5
That is a contradiction that proves the opposite. Just the liars paradox JLU ... just a statement that words and ideas about the ineffable can only point at the ineffable indirectly. I don't see the statement 'nothing is ultimately true' as one that comments on the relationship between words/ideas and an alleged 'ineffable', I see the statement as one that comments specifically on the nature of ideas. The statement uses the idea of an 'ultimate' to talk about the nature of ideas, and this alleged 'ultimate' is posited firmly and fixedly as something more than an idea. This is a direct contradiction to the statement. As a result of this, the nature of ideas is misunderstood, and in the wake of this misunderstanding, the idea of an alleged 'ultimate' becomes a fixed belief/truth.
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