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Post by laughter on Mar 10, 2013 16:10:05 GMT -5
This acceptance cannot be complete as long as there is the belief that folks are able to make their own free will choices and are therefore responsible for those choices, and so it's necessary to realize that nonvolition is the case. This leads to understanding and compassion.
figster I share your perception at the lack of balance in E's insistence on non-volition but then again I'm really overweight right now and have to accept that to get back to a healthy weight I'm going to have to lead a life with a certain amount of imbalance for awhile  |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 10, 2013 16:29:33 GMT -5
If love depends upon 'no one choosing or being responsible' then it is a love based upon condition.
figster I share your perception at the lack of balance in E's insistence on non-volition but then again I'm really overweight right now and have to accept that to get back to a healthy weight I'm going to have to lead a life with a certain amount of imbalance for awhile ;D |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 10, 2013 16:44:37 GMT -5
The reasons that mind comes up with for doing what it does are actually stories written from a personal perspective about a movement that is entirely impersonal. Mind refuses to accept that it is the end result of countless influences that involves the whole universe, and so it says 'I did this for this purpose'. If you were able to empty yourself out of purpose, what would happen then? Would you go limp and never move again? You will still do things, but how could you claim a purpose when you have none? At that point, if you're honest with yourself, you have to admit that you don't know, and can't know. If you continue to operate in this mode, you might notice strange and interesting patterns forming, and you might see yourself as integrated into that pattern, though you didn't actually position yourself there. It's not actually your job to run your own life, much less anybody else's. Mostly, what we create is a reflection of our own contractions; an exploration of our own illusions of authorship. When those illusions are gone, everything just happens, including your choices, and 'you'; are just along for the ride. Creation is happening on an unfathomably huge scale and you really don't know, can't know, why anything happens. This is not good news for the 'God-like conscious co-creator' crowd, but it is what it is. That makes sense to me as long as it isn't the Ego that has emptied itself of purpose. We are awareness, so whether our action is purposeful or not, we are not separate from the action. We still hold people responsible for their actions. If you kill someone even if you are completely empty of purpose, the awareness will still go to jail for life. Is there a higher purpose in that? I don't really know. |
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Post by enigma on Mar 10, 2013 17:05:21 GMT -5
Sure, there is a point where story-telling begins, but to simply look and see that certain emotions and judgments are arising and that these are spurring an urge to act in a certain way is not story telling. It is simple seeing/noticing and acknowledgement of what's going on. You've disconnected prior to this seeing, telling us that to report what is seen, would be to create a story. Not so. The story telling would begin when you started trying to explain the validity of your emotions and judgments and urge to act, but there is no story telling in the acknowledgement of what actually happened (in mind...what thoughts arose, etc.) when you read those posts and then had an urge to report them. The fact that you cannot see those thought/machinations of mind, or refuse to engage with them AT ALL, indicates where you go unconscious. If you had been aware of the thoughts arising as you read ARisha's posts and then responded by reporting, you may not have actually gone through with reporting them as you would have seen at that point, that mind was churning out a story of unfairness, or disparity, or something that was not 'okay.' This is why it's important to be aware at this level about what mind is doing....what thoughts are arising....what subsequent emotions/feelings are arising. Sure and that's a very expanded and dispassionate perspective. But, It is also possible to dispassionately observe from an expanded position, the feelings, judgments and motivations that arose/arise from a more personal position. In fact, the mere act of observation requires that we stand back and expand our perspective. You're trying to make a quantum leap from having egoic, needy thoughts to then, claiming, 'stuff just happens.' Before we go there, The egoic needy thoughts first require addressing. If we are to transcend behaviors where we lash out unconsciously, and in the process create more suffering, it's of the utmost importance to first be able to SEE the thought processes that led to the action. To simply say; IN the big scheme of things, this 'just happened' is to turn a blind eye to unconsciousness. This is a big 'If.' The problem is, that if we believe we have emptied ourselves of purpose before we actually have, we get to go about behaving in ways that are chock full of egoic need, all the while remaining oblivious to that. this is what happens when one Comes to a point of 'some' clarity, but believes he is fully 'done' and from that position of being relatively blind, but believing his is absolutely clear, contributing to the very suffering we believe we are helping to alleviate. What you describe here though is a place of profound acceptance....where we are no longer pushing against anything....thus, actual 'way of being' reflects this. You've put the cart before the horse E. You have not yet transcended egoic need. It's only from a place of complete acceptance that we really experience the 'flow' of 'stuff just happening.' If you had actually been experiencing in such a way, the urge to report posts would not have arisen. The types of thoughts that arise have everything to do with 'how' we are experiencing. Being in the 'flow' does not lead to thoughts that say; 'this is wrong......this must be remedied.....this is unfair.' And there is nothing wrong with feeling a sense of unfairness and thus, reporting a post, but it IS important to be able to see what mind was doing when that all occurred. You don't know what will happen from "a place of profound acceptance....where we are no longer pushing against anything". You have all sorts of ideas about what should happen and what 'not pushing against anything' looks like. It's all good and rosy and gentle and kind, but all I can say is Love is not that. Haffiz knows what Love is. Listen to him.: "Tired of Speaking Sweetly Love wants to reach out and manhandle us, Break all our teacup talk of God. If you had the courage and Could give the Beloved His choice, some nights, He would just drag you around the room By your hair, Ripping from your grip all those toys in the world That bring you no joy. Love sometimes gets tired of speaking sweetly And wants to rip to shreds All your erroneous notions of truth That make you fight within yourself, dear one, And with others, Causing the world to weep On too many fine days. God wants to manhandle us, Lock us inside of a tiny room with Himself And practice His dropkick. The Beloved sometimes wants To do us a great favor: Hold us upside down And shake all the nonsense out. But when we hear He is in such a "playful drunken mood" Most everyone I know Quickly packs their bags and hightails it Out of town." |
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Post by laughter on Mar 10, 2013 17:10:31 GMT -5
What you describe here though is a place of profound acceptance....where we are no longer pushing against anything....thus, actual 'way of being' reflects this. You've put the cart before the horse E. You have not yet transcended egoic need. It's only from a place of complete acceptance that we really experience the 'flow' of 'stuff just happening.' If you had actually been experiencing in such a way, the urge to report posts would not have arisen. The types of thoughts that arise have everything to do with 'how' we are experiencing. Being in the 'flow' does not lead to thoughts that say; 'this is wrong......this must be remedied.....this is unfair.' And there is nothing wrong with feeling a sense of unfairness and thus, reporting a post, but it IS important to be able to see what mind was doing when that all occurred. You don't know what will happen from "a place of profound acceptance....where we are no longer pushing against anything". You have all sorts of ideas about what should happen and what 'not pushing against anything' looks like. It's all good and rosy and gentle and kind, but all I can say is Love is not that. Haffiz knows what Love is. Listen to him.: "Tired of Speaking Sweetly Love wants to reach out and manhandle us, Break all our teacup talk of God. If you had the courage and Could give the Beloved His choice, some nights, He would just drag you around the room By your hair, Ripping from your grip all those toys in the world That bring you no joy. Love sometimes gets tired of speaking sweetly And wants to rip to shreds All your erroneous notions of truth That make you fight within yourself, dear one, And with others, Causing the world to weep On too many fine days. God wants to manhandle us, Lock us inside of a tiny room with Himself And practice His dropkick. The Beloved sometimes wants To do us a great favor: Hold us upside down And shake all the nonsense out. But when we hear He is in such a "playful drunken mood" Most everyone I know Quickly packs their bags and hightails it Out of town." E', I seem to remember you saying something to the effect that "the illusion was ripped violently from my eyes" .... do you bring this here with you? I have no expectations if you don't want to respond to this man. No worries either way. |
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Post by enigma on Mar 10, 2013 17:12:49 GMT -5
The reasons that mind comes up with for doing what it does are actually stories written from a personal perspective about a movement that is entirely impersonal. Mind refuses to accept that it is the end result of countless influences that involves the whole universe, and so it says 'I did this for this purpose'. If you were able to empty yourself out of purpose, what would happen then? Would you go limp and never move again? You will still do things, but how could you claim a purpose when you have none? At that point, if you're honest with yourself, you have to admit that you don't know, and can't know. If you continue to operate in this mode, you might notice strange and interesting patterns forming, and you might see yourself as integrated into that pattern, though you didn't actually position yourself there. It's not actually your job to run your own life, much less anybody else's. Mostly, what we create is a reflection of our own contractions; an exploration of our own illusions of authorship. When those illusions are gone, everything just happens, including your choices, and 'you'; are just along for the ride. Creation is happening on an unfathomably huge scale and you really don't know, can't know, why anything happens. This is not good news for the 'God-like conscious co-creator' crowd, but it is what it is. That makes sense to me as long as it isn't the Ego that has emptied itself of purpose. Yeah. Right, and the forum 'monster' will still be held accountable, and it's okay. I'm not big on higher purpose as it seems to imply a prior plan, but there is some sense to the idea that the impersonal movement of life itself is not without perfection and beauty. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 10, 2013 17:18:31 GMT -5
You don't know what will happen from "a place of profound acceptance....where we are no longer pushing against anything". I think It's fairly safe to say, that the thoughts that arise in conjunction with the reporting of eight posts are not thoughts that arise from a place of acceptance, allowance or flow. Sure, after the fact, you may very well be in full acceptance of the fact that you reported those posts, but the reporting itself is evidence of resistance and pushing against your forum experience in that moment. I find it odd that you are working so hard to avoid admitting that you had some resistance to what was occurring there. Would it be so bad to simply admit that you were not liking the dynamic that was in play there? ...would you say that a child who feels compelled to report the behavior of another kid on a school playground to the principle, is flowing harmoniously in acceptance/allowance with his playground experience? |
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Post by enigma on Mar 10, 2013 17:22:02 GMT -5
You don't know what will happen from "a place of profound acceptance....where we are no longer pushing against anything". You have all sorts of ideas about what should happen and what 'not pushing against anything' looks like. It's all good and rosy and gentle and kind, but all I can say is Love is not that. Haffiz knows what Love is. Listen to him.: "Tired of Speaking Sweetly Love wants to reach out and manhandle us, Break all our teacup talk of God. If you had the courage and Could give the Beloved His choice, some nights, He would just drag you around the room By your hair, Ripping from your grip all those toys in the world That bring you no joy. Love sometimes gets tired of speaking sweetly And wants to rip to shreds All your erroneous notions of truth That make you fight within yourself, dear one, And with others, Causing the world to weep On too many fine days. God wants to manhandle us, Lock us inside of a tiny room with Himself And practice His dropkick. The Beloved sometimes wants To do us a great favor: Hold us upside down And shake all the nonsense out. But when we hear He is in such a "playful drunken mood" Most everyone I know Quickly packs their bags and hightails it Out of town." E', I seem to remember you saying something to the effect that "the illusion was ripped violently from my eyes" .... do you bring this here with you? I have no expectations if you don't want to respond to this man. No worries either way. What I have said is that God brought me to my knees and ripped the darkness from my heart. Of course I bring that here with me, though I'm not sure if it's in the way you mean. Laughter is here because Laughter is needed for what Laughter is. Same for Enigma. |
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Post by enigma on Mar 10, 2013 17:31:02 GMT -5
You don't know what will happen from "a place of profound acceptance....where we are no longer pushing against anything". I think It's fairly safe to say, that the thoughts that arise in conjunction with the reporting of eight posts are not thoughts that arise from a place of acceptance, allowance or flow. Sure, after the fact, you may very well be in full acceptance of the fact that you reported those posts, but the reporting itself is evidence of resistance and pushing against your forum experience in that moment. There was the thought to report the posts, and that thought was followed by the reporting of the posts. There was no discontent, no anger, no resistance, no agenda, no contemplation of the repercussions. It's your "evidence" that I'm questioning. That presupposes resistance, avoidance and hard work. You don't really know any of that, do you? I don't know. Do you? |
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Post by laughter on Mar 10, 2013 17:33:42 GMT -5
E', I seem to remember you saying something to the effect that "the illusion was ripped violently from my eyes" .... do you bring this here with you? I have no expectations if you don't want to respond to this man. No worries either way. What I have said is that God brought me to my knees and ripped the darkness from my heart. Of course I bring that here with me, though I'm not sure if it's in the way you mean. Laughter is here because Laughter is needed for what Laughter is. Same for Enigma. Laughter is here because Laughter is needed for what Laughter is. Same for Enigma. Can't argue with a word of that. Of course I bring that here with me, though I'm not sure if it's in the way you mean. Ultimately yes, that's what I meant. Implicit in the question of course is a sort of accusation that this colors your interactions here on the forum. It simply came to mind at this point -- I guess it comes down to what this "coming empty" business means in the end. Perhaps what was needed for Laughter to be Laughter was to serve some red meat to the dogs of war to given them energy for the battle.  |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 10, 2013 17:40:41 GMT -5
That makes sense to me as long as it isn't the Ego that has emptied itself of purpose. Yeah. Right, and the forum 'monster' will still be held accountable, and it's okay. I'm not big on higher purpose as it seems to imply a prior plan, but there is some sense to the idea that the impersonal movement of life itself is not without perfection and beauty. Maybe the higher purpose of Life "IS" happiness. What manifests from that purpose cannot not be perfection and beauty. Perhaps the purpose of human existence, which is all suffering, is a necessary outcome for Life to realize it's purpose. But I don't know... |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 10, 2013 18:06:26 GMT -5
There was the thought to report the posts, and that thought was followed by the reporting of the posts. Back up a few paces cowboy. The thought to report posts did not occur in a vacuum. If you really can't see this, then This is precisely where your blind spot exists. Prior to the thought about reporting posts, there was a 'feeling' which arose in conjunction with a thought about the post(s) of Arisha's that you read. So, you really cannot connect at all with a sense of "why" you wanted to report all those posts?  If so E, this explains so much. If your ability to 'see' does not extend to the thoughts/feelings behind behaviors, then clearly, you are completely unaware in terms of how and why you do what you do. This disconnect is what happens when folks who are still very much experiencing egoic need, become convinced that they have transcended the personal; A refusal to acknowledge thoughts, feelings and behaviors that are very much still based upon attachment to personal identity and storyline. The interesting thing is, none of these things are problems in & of themselves, so long as we can see them. But if we are blind to them, we are capable of behaving in ways that hurt others without even being the merest bit suspicious of the fact that we might be doing so. No, you're right. All I have to go on is your words and my observations of your actions here. IN the same way though E, you don't "really know" anything about anyone here either. I guess I just cannot imagine not being able to see the thoughts/feelings that arose behind an urge to report a series of (8!!) posts to Peter. And as such, it seems as though you are avoiding admitting that you were affected in some way by those posts. From my vantage point, it'd just be easier to say; "yeah, sure I felt a little angry there as things appeared to be unfair and I wanted to prove my point"....or "I was trying to be funny".....or "I was high/drunk and I accidentally hit the report button." ;D |
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Post by silver on Mar 10, 2013 18:17:20 GMT -5
There was the thought to report the posts, and that thought was followed by the reporting of the posts. Back up a few paces cowboy. The thought to report posts did not occur in a vacuum. If you really can't see this, then This is precisely where your blind spot exists. Prior to the thought about reporting posts, there was a 'feeling' which arose in conjunction with a thought about the post(s) of Arisha's that you read. So, you really cannot connect at all with a sense of "why" you wanted to report all those posts? If so E, this explains so much. If your ability to 'see' does not extend to the thoughts/feelings behind behaviors, then clearly, you are completely unaware in terms of how and why you do what you do. This disconnect is what happens when folks who are still very much experiencing egoic need, become convinced that they have transcended the personal; A refusal to acknowledge thoughts, feelings and behaviors that are very much still based upon attachment to personal identity and storyline. The interesting thing is, none of these things are problems in & of themselves, so long as we can see them. But if we are blind to them, we are capable of behaving in ways that hurt others without even being the merest bit suspicious of the fact that we might be doing so. No, you're right. All I have to go on is your words and my observations of your actions here. IN the same way though E, you don't "really know" anything about anyone here either. I guess I just cannot imagine not being able to see the thoughts/feelings that arose behind an urge to report a series of (8!!) posts to Peter. And as such, it seems as though you are avoiding admitting that you were affected in some way by those posts. From my vantage point, it'd just be easier to say; "yeah, sure I felt a little angry there as things appeared to be unfair and I wanted to prove my point"....or "I was trying to be funny".....or "I was high/drunk and I accidentally hit the report button." ;D And it's fun...I mean interesting how it wasn't too long ago that E was wonderin' out loud about someone else being under the influence. Maybe there wasn't so much a sense of E's of unfairness over the posts he reported as it was an intent to manipulate, even if the reasoning was just to have a little fun. ^ ^ ^ That's just me having a little fun.  (I've always liked the way you think, Figs.) |
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Post by andrew on Mar 10, 2013 18:22:40 GMT -5
I think It's fairly safe to say, that the thoughts that arise in conjunction with the reporting of eight posts are not thoughts that arise from a place of acceptance, allowance or flow. Sure, after the fact, you may very well be in full acceptance of the fact that you reported those posts, but the reporting itself is evidence of resistance and pushing against your forum experience in that moment. There was the thought to report the posts, and that thought was followed by the reporting of the posts. There was no discontent, no anger, no resistance, no agenda, no contemplation of the repercussions. It's your "evidence" that I'm questioning. The thought to report the posts must have followed some sense of something....the sense that the people you were reporting were contravening forum rules in some way and also the sense that some kind of action from the moderator as a response is appropriate. Why else report them? An 'I don't know' answer to that is an unwillingness to look at the motivation. By the way, I'm not writing off the possibility that posts can be reported from a place of 'love', I have yet to report a post despite occasionally experiencing a movement to sometimes, but I don't rule out the possibility that it is ego that has me NOT reporting them! My feeling is though that you are carrying forum baggage around with you to some extent (carrying the past) and that this is linked to the reporting. |
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Post by laughter on Mar 10, 2013 18:29:20 GMT -5
There was the thought to report the posts, and that thought was followed by the reporting of the posts. There was no discontent, no anger, no resistance, no agenda, no contemplation of the repercussions. It's your "evidence" that I'm questioning. The thought to report the posts must have followed some sense of something....the sense that the people you were reporting were contravening forum rules in some way and also the sense that some kind of action from the moderator as a response is appropriate. Why else report them? An 'I don't know' answer to that is an unwillingness to look at the motivation. ... keep the whole context in mind ... it was directly after an abrupt public warning from Peter that carried with it no indication that this warning was solicited by anyone but Peter ... I imagine that the reports were more a way to facilitate some discussion between E and the mod rather than any serious attempt to get Arisha banned or whatever. |
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