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Post by topology on Mar 10, 2013 1:06:56 GMT -5
Ah!  |
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Post by andrew on Mar 10, 2013 3:04:11 GMT -5
Hey, glad to hear the weight has been lifted, and good to see you back.
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Post by andrew on Mar 10, 2013 4:09:12 GMT -5
I like ACIM. I never followed the course step by step, but have got a lot of time for the wisdom. Occasionally I open a page 'at random', which is what I just did, and this is the message...I think it is relevant to the O.P
Title: Choose Once Again.
(and the bit that leapt out)
''Choose once again if you would take your place among the saviours of the world, or would remain in hell, and hold your brothers there.''
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Post by quinn on Mar 10, 2013 8:45:16 GMT -5
Hey, Top. Thanks for sharing what's been going on in your life. I know a break like that takes a lot of courage, especially when kids are involved. You've talked before about the integration of spirituality and how we live - the 'being' and the 'doing', how one informs the other. I always appreciate those conversations. One of the realizations that I had while first getting into the Course several years ago was that the highest honor and highest service you could perform for another person is to constantly come to them empty. What this means is somehow shedding the impressions, perceptions, judgments, and assumptions we make about others. As we interact with others we collect these things in our memory banks and then the next time we meet the person we relate to them through this built up crud. We stop seeing them as they are now and instead we relate to them through this built up image. This is a fundamental mistake. Relating to a person through an image is not relating to them how they are right now. What is worse, it is subconsciously telling that person that that is how they are viewed and thus how they are (or should be). If the person is unconscious, it is encourage them to integrate that image into their self-image. I completely agree with all of this. The only part I question is taking this on as a practice. First of all, I'm not sure it can be done. I can see how it can happen, but not how it can be made to happen. The second question is about coming empty vs coming with an assumption of wholeness (in the sense that you are using that word). That seems to be two different things. Trying not to be all over the map here, but this really speaks to a bigger question mark for me which is, basically, where is this line between mind-stuff and no-mind? Does it even exist? When you have a noble aspiration, like the one you talk about here, how is that separate from the source of it? Where does illusion begin and end? When is self-work detrimental to the discovery of who we are and when is it helpful? Ok. So it's not one question.  |
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Post by Beingist on Mar 10, 2013 10:58:08 GMT -5
All I can say is that it's good to have you back, Tops. |
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Post by enigma on Mar 10, 2013 12:01:25 GMT -5
Hey, Top. Thanks for sharing what's been going on in your life. I know a break like that takes a lot of courage, especially when kids are involved. You've talked before about the integration of spirituality and how we live - the 'being' and the 'doing', how one informs the other. I always appreciate those conversations. One of the realizations that I had while first getting into the Course several years ago was that the highest honor and highest service you could perform for another person is to constantly come to them empty. What this means is somehow shedding the impressions, perceptions, judgments, and assumptions we make about others. As we interact with others we collect these things in our memory banks and then the next time we meet the person we relate to them through this built up crud. We stop seeing them as they are now and instead we relate to them through this built up image. This is a fundamental mistake. Relating to a person through an image is not relating to them how they are right now. What is worse, it is subconsciously telling that person that that is how they are viewed and thus how they are (or should be). If the person is unconscious, it is encourage them to integrate that image into their self-image. I completely agree with all of this. The only part I question is taking this on as a practice. First of all, I'm not sure it can be done. I can see how it can happen, but not how it can be made to happen. The second question is about coming empty vs coming with an assumption of wholeness (in the sense that you are using that word). That seems to be two different things. Yeah, coming empty doesn't require practice, it requires emptying out of personal agenda that leads to bias, judgment, need and expectation. It's essentially the absence of the belief in the personal identity from which all of that arises and is projected onto others. |
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Post by justlikeyou on Mar 10, 2013 12:43:16 GMT -5
Hey, Top. Thanks for sharing what's been going on in your life. I know a break like that takes a lot of courage, especially when kids are involved. You've talked before about the integration of spirituality and how we live - the 'being' and the 'doing', how one informs the other. I always appreciate those conversations. I completely agree with all of this. The only part I question is taking this on as a practice. First of all, I'm not sure it can be done. I can see how it can happen, but not how it can be made to happen. The second question is about coming empty vs coming with an assumption of wholeness (in the sense that you are using that word). That seems to be two different things. Yeah, coming empty doesn't require practice, it requires emptying out of personal agenda that leads to bias, judgment, need and expectation. It's essentially the absence of the belief in the personal identity from which all of that arises and is projected onto others. So the question comes: How do we get from this succinct definition to the actuality of it? |
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Post by enigma on Mar 10, 2013 13:28:06 GMT -5
Yeah, coming empty doesn't require practice, it requires emptying out of personal agenda that leads to bias, judgment, need and expectation. It's essentially the absence of the belief in the personal identity from which all of that arises and is projected onto others. So the question comes: How do we get from this succinct definition to the actuality of it? I'd say one common scenario begins with self love, which is the removal of self judgment. Since most of the judgment of others is a projection of our own self judgment, self acceptance naturally expands to include acceptance of others. This acceptance cannot be complete as long as there is the belief that folks are able to make their own free will choices and are therefore responsible for those choices, and so it's necessary to realize that nonvolition is the case. This leads to understanding and compassion. This is all part of a process of becoming conscious, which means to remove all self deception. To live and act in the world as a fully conscious being. Finally, it is the recognition of oneness that empties out the separate self of all divisive perception and self serving illusions. One 'comes empty' because there is no longer the belief in, or the need for, a separate needy self who views the world as an object for his own fulfillment, or looks to others as a means of self completion. One is already complete, whole, one. The person is the very definition of incompleteness, and this is as it must be and ceases to be a problem to be solved. |
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Post by tzujanli on Mar 10, 2013 13:34:08 GMT -5
Greetings.. So the question comes: How do we get from this succinct definition to the actuality of it? I'd say one common scenario begins with self love, which is the removal of self judgment. Since most of the judgment of others is a projection of our own self judgment, self acceptance naturally expands to include acceptance of others. This acceptance cannot be complete as long as there is the belief that folks are able to make their own free will choices and are therefore responsible for those choices, and so it's necessary to realize that nonvolition is the case. This leads to understanding and compassion. This is all part of a process of becoming conscious, which means to remove all self deception. To live and act in the world as a fully conscious being. Finally, it is the recognition of oneness that empties out the separate self of all divisive perception and self serving illusions. One 'comes empty' because there is no longer the belief in, or the need for, a separate needy self who views the world as an object for his own fulfillment, or looks to others as a means of self completion. One is already complete, whole, one. The person is the very definition of incompleteness, and this is as it must be and ceases to be a problem to be solved. There is no emptiness, here.. read your post from a neutral perspective, it is over-ripe with expectation, belief, and judgment.. Be well.. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 10, 2013 13:50:13 GMT -5
So the question comes: How do we get from this succinct definition to the actuality of it? I'd say one common scenario begins with self love, which is the removal of self judgment. Since most of the judgment of others is a projection of our own self judgment, self acceptance naturally expands to include acceptance of others. This acceptance cannot be complete as long as there is the belief that folks are able to make their own free will choices and are therefore responsible for those choices, and so it's necessary to realize that nonvolition is the case. This leads to understanding and compassion. This is all part of a process of becoming conscious, which means to remove all self deception. To live and act in the world as a fully conscious being. Finally, it is the recognition of oneness that empties out the separate self of all divisive perception and self serving illusions. One 'comes empty' because there is no longer the belief in, or the need for, a separate needy self who views the world as an object for his own fulfillment, or looks to others as a means of self completion. One is already complete, whole, one. The person is the very definition of incompleteness, and this is as it must be and ceases to be a problem to be solved. Yeah, I'd just add that it's really about bringing present moment awareness into everything we do. The first step is be aware that we are constantly judging, comparing, categorizing, labeling, liking, disliking, and compartmentalizing the world. We are constantly telling the world what it is, instead of letting the world tell us what it is. We have to become aware of the judging of the world as a reflection of our own self judging, 'without' judging it. That means that we need to save a bit of the energy that we use to focus on the world and use it to focus on our minds. |
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Post by enigma on Mar 10, 2013 14:20:43 GMT -5
I'd say one common scenario begins with self love, which is the removal of self judgment. Since most of the judgment of others is a projection of our own self judgment, self acceptance naturally expands to include acceptance of others. This acceptance cannot be complete as long as there is the belief that folks are able to make their own free will choices and are therefore responsible for those choices, and so it's necessary to realize that nonvolition is the case. This leads to understanding and compassion. This is all part of a process of becoming conscious, which means to remove all self deception. To live and act in the world as a fully conscious being. Finally, it is the recognition of oneness that empties out the separate self of all divisive perception and self serving illusions. One 'comes empty' because there is no longer the belief in, or the need for, a separate needy self who views the world as an object for his own fulfillment, or looks to others as a means of self completion. One is already complete, whole, one. The person is the very definition of incompleteness, and this is as it must be and ceases to be a problem to be solved. Yeah, I'd just add that it's really about bringing present moment awareness into everything we do. The first step is be aware that we are constantly judging, comparing, categorizing, labeling, liking, disliking, and compartmentalizing the world. We are constantly telling the world what it is, instead of letting the world tell us what it is. We have to become aware of the judging of the world as a reflection of our own self judging, 'without' judging it. That means that we need to save a bit of the energy that we use to focus on the world and use it to focus on our minds. Yup, yup. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 10, 2013 14:25:38 GMT -5
This acceptance cannot be complete as long as there is the belief that folks are able to make their own free will choices and are therefore responsible for those choices, and so it's necessary to realize that nonvolition is the case. This leads to understanding and compassion. If love depends upon 'no one choosing or being responsible' then it is a love based upon condition. It's possible to see and experience responsibility AND love self and others without condition. A belief that these two are incompatible, results in bizarre circumstances where folks who are supposedly 'conscious and aware' are completely unable (or unwilling ) to share motivations for their actions....(actions such as reporting numerous posts to a moderator on a forum). Really interesting that you're saying this E, cause I just spend a bit of time reading through the thread where you cannot say why it was that you reported a bunch of posts. I see that as a stellar example of 'going unconscious' and 'self deception.' It seems to me that there is a lack of consciousness at the root of that 'mystery'. You have created a disconnect between that aspect of experience where 'you' were impacted by a series of posts, to the degree that you felt compelled to report them, and your awareness about that. It's not enough to simply deny or dismiss personal judgments and feelings and resultant motivations, that still are very much in existence. If we are acting in ways that demonstrate negative judgment, it's important to be able to SEE those judgments and to acknowledge 'what in the blazes is actually going on'.....otherwise, we're simply pandering to a big 'ol blind spot. Self love that requires such a blind spot, is very much conditional love. |
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Post by enigma on Mar 10, 2013 15:05:04 GMT -5
This acceptance cannot be complete as long as there is the belief that folks are able to make their own free will choices and are therefore responsible for those choices, and so it's necessary to realize that nonvolition is the case. This leads to understanding and compassion. If love depends upon 'no one choosing or being responsible' then it is a love based upon condition. Love doesn't depend on the absence of illusion, but the experience of it does. When illusions are taken to be real, whatever love is experienced to be, is conditional and conceptual. The reasons that mind comes up with for doing what it does are actually stories written from a personal perspective about a movement that is entirely impersonal. Mind refuses to accept that it is the end result of countless influences that involves the whole universe, and so it says 'I did this for this purpose'. If you were able to empty yourself out of purpose, what would happen then? Would you go limp and never move again? You will still do things, but how could you claim a purpose when you have none? At that point, if you're honest with yourself, you have to admit that you don't know, and can't know. If you continue to operate in this mode, you might notice strange and interesting patterns forming, and you might see yourself as integrated into that pattern, though you didn't actually position yourself there. It's not actually your job to run your own life, much less anybody else's. Mostly, what we create is a reflection of our own contractions; an exploration of our own illusions of authorship. When those illusions are gone, everything just happens, including your choices, and 'you'; are just along for the ride. Creation is happening on an unfathomably huge scale and you really don't know, can't know, why anything happens. This is not good news for the 'God-like conscious co-creator' crowd, but it is what it is. |
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Post by tzujanli on Mar 10, 2013 15:12:10 GMT -5
Greetings.. If love depends upon 'no one choosing or being responsible' then it is a love based upon condition. Love doesn't depend on the absence of illusion, but the experience of it does. When illusions are taken to be real, whatever love is experienced to be, is conditional and conceptual. Really interesting that you're saying this E, cause I just spend a bit of time reading through the thread where you cannot say why it was that you reported a bunch of posts. I see that as a stellar example of 'going unconscious' and 'self deception.' It seems to me that there is a lack of consciousness at the root of that 'mystery'. You have created a disconnect between that aspect of experience where 'you' were impacted by a series of posts, to the degree that you felt compelled to report them, and your awareness about that. It's not enough to simply deny or dismiss personal judgments and feelings and resultant motivations, that still are very much in existence. If we are acting in ways that demonstrate negative judgment, it's important to be able to SEE those judgments and to acknowledge 'what in the blazes is actually going on'.....otherwise, we're simply pandering to a big 'ol blind spot. Self love that requires such a blind spot, is very much conditional love. "IF" you were able".. underscores the core issue, you aren't "able".. what you are doing is setting-up a hypothetical then treating it as if it were 'true', then applying 'your' conditional solutions as the expedient illusion for advancing your beliefs.. Be well.. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 10, 2013 15:59:36 GMT -5
Sure, there is a point where story-telling begins, but to simply look and see that certain emotions and judgments are arising and that these are spurring an urge to act in a certain way is not story telling. It is simple seeing/noticing and acknowledgement of what's going on. You've disconnected prior to this seeing, telling us that to report what is seen, would be to create a story. Not so. The story telling would begin when you started trying to explain the validity of your emotions and judgments and urge to act, but there is no story telling in the acknowledgement of what actually happened (in mind...what thoughts arose, etc.) when you read those posts and then had an urge to report them. The fact that you cannot see those thought/machinations of mind, or refuse to engage with them AT ALL, indicates where you go unconscious. If you had been aware of the thoughts arising as you read ARisha's posts and then responded by reporting, you may not have actually gone through with reporting them as you would have seen at that point, that mind was churning out a story of unfairness, or disparity, or something that was not 'okay.' This is why it's important to be aware at this level about what mind is doing....what thoughts are arising....what subsequent emotions/feelings are arising. Sure and that's a very expanded and dispassionate perspective. But, It is also possible to dispassionately observe from an expanded position, the feelings, judgments and motivations that arose/arise from a more personal position. In fact, the mere act of observation requires that we stand back and expand our perspective. You're trying to make a quantum leap from having egoic, needy thoughts to then, claiming, 'stuff just happens.' Before we go there, The egoic needy thoughts first require addressing. If we are to transcend behaviors where we lash out unconsciously, and in the process create more suffering, it's of the utmost importance to first be able to SEE the thought processes that led to the action. To simply say; IN the big scheme of things, this 'just happened' is to turn a blind eye to unconsciousness. This is a big 'If.' The problem is, that if we believe we have emptied ourselves of purpose before we actually have, we get to go about behaving in ways that are chock full of egoic need, all the while remaining oblivious to that. this is what happens when one Comes to a point of 'some' clarity, but believes he is fully 'done' and from that position of being relatively blind, but believing his is absolutely clear, contributing to the very suffering we believe we are helping to alleviate. What you describe here though is a place of profound acceptance....where we are no longer pushing against anything....thus, actual 'way of being' reflects this. You've put the cart before the horse E. You have not yet transcended egoic need. It's only from a place of complete acceptance that we really experience the 'flow' of 'stuff just happening.' If you had actually been experiencing in such a way, the urge to report posts would not have arisen. The types of thoughts that arise have everything to do with 'how' we are experiencing. Being in the 'flow' does not lead to thoughts that say; 'this is wrong......this must be remedied.....this is unfair.' And there is nothing wrong with feeling a sense of unfairness and thus, reporting a post, but it IS important to be able to see what mind was doing when that all occurred. |
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