|
|
Post by andrew on Feb 12, 2013 13:32:32 GMT -5
Which is a projection (and not necessarily incorrect). How do you know it's a projection? Or are you saying all comments are projections? Yes I was. But that doesn't necessarily invalidate them. |
|
|
|
Post by andrew on Feb 12, 2013 13:36:25 GMT -5
Not that it probably makes a lot of difference, but Enigma brought you both into the argument before that. Given the possibility that I was putting forward, I didn't consider it appropriate to ignore that. Well, I didn't cause you to fantasize. Whether there is some truth in what I was offering is obviously debatable. |
|
|
|
Post by enigma on Feb 12, 2013 14:07:12 GMT -5
Sure it sounds weird. But I don't think that anyone can deny a correlation between their attention/ focus and the thoughts they usually think and what's manifesting around them. So, maybe watch what kind of thoughts you are thinking when you are in a bad mood and what kind of thoughts you are thinking when you are in a good mood. And then look where your focus went when you were in a good mood or in a bad mood and look if there is a correlation. This forum probably isn't the right place for that kind of 'beginner's stuff'. Most who are involved here have very strong focus. And if someone with strong focus is focusing on someone with a rather weak ability to focus that can feel intimidating to the weak focuser and can throw the weak focuser off balance very quickly. And I guess that's what happened with you here. It probably feels overwhelming at times. 1st paragraph - some good notions there.. 2nd paragraph - I was just thinking this morning that if a person wants to try on any new-fangled belief or philosophy etc., they have to know where the neck and arm holes are, .....It may or may not fit *shrug* The way I figure, there's something in each belief, church, techniques, for everyone - we have to borrow what truly makes sense for the individual - hah, until such time as that person may start believing (?!) that there is no individual. Oh boy. I never wanted to be a pain in the rear - I guess I couldn't resist getting in the middle of things too many places and/or too often!  Seems to me that the nonduality ideas are something you haven't really approached, and so it's not about whether or not it's a good fit for you. The spearatual work you've been doing, from my perspective of course, is about becoming conscious, and I don't think I could say it has anything to do with nonduality. However, it does lead to a happier, more stable life. It's this ability to function consciously in the world that sets the foundation for this nondual stuff. |
|
|
|
Post by enigma on Feb 12, 2013 14:09:32 GMT -5
1st paragraph - some good notions there.. 2nd paragraph - I was just thinking this morning that if a person wants to try on any new-fangled belief or philosophy etc., they have to know where the neck and arm holes are, .....It may or may not fit *shrug* The way I figure, there's something in each belief, church, techniques, for everyone - we have to borrow what truly makes sense for the individual - hah, until such time as that person may start believing (?!) that there is no individual. Oh boy. I never wanted to be a pain in the rear - I guess I couldn't resist getting in the middle of things too many places and/or too often! Yup, lots of ridiculous stuff happening here. ;D I'd call it insanity, but that would put me at risk of getting my hands slapped, so I won't.  |
|
|
|
Post by enigma on Feb 12, 2013 14:27:35 GMT -5
How do you know it's a projection? Or are you saying all comments are projections? Yes I was. But that doesn't necessarily invalidate them. Apparently, I see projections differently than you do. I see all projections as being unconscious by definition. When one becomes conscious of a projection, the projection is withdrawn and is no longer a projection. A perspective based on an interest formed from personal history is not necessarily a projection. We see personal interests happening all the time, which ideally just results in a unique perspective on the 'statue' such that the eyes are of particular interest, or the nobility of the form is particularly appreciated, but it doesn't distort the actual view of the statue. When the statue grows a tail and long neck, and it's believed that this is actually what is seen from that perspective, then there is projection. There need not be any projection at all when one is fully conscious. Any personal bias is recognized and seen for what it is and not projected outside onto the object as though it is actually there for everyone else to see. It's true that one may be projecting what is seen, and yet what is seen is actually happening. This happens quite often because the projector is highly attuned to seeing his projection in another, but then we're just dealing with possibilities as the projector can't know if it's actually a valid perception until he stops projecting. |
|
|
|
Post by enigma on Feb 12, 2013 14:32:32 GMT -5
Well, I didn't cause you to fantasize. Whether there is some truth in what I was offering is obviously debatable. And as such I don't have an issue with you suggesting it as a possibility and being open to information that contradicts that suggestion, but what I saw you doing was hammering your point in from every possible angle as though it wasn't debatable at all. |
|
|
|
Post by andrew on Feb 12, 2013 14:36:01 GMT -5
Yes I was. But that doesn't necessarily invalidate them. Apparently, I see projections differently than you do. I see all projections as being unconscious by definition. When one becomes conscious of a projection, the projection is withdrawn and is no longer a projection. A perspective based on an interest formed from personal history is not necessarily a projection. We see personal interests happening all the time, which ideally just results in a unique perspective on the 'statue' such that the eyes are of particular interest, or the nobility of the form is particularly appreciated, but it doesn't distort the actual view of the statue. When the statue grows a tail and long neck, and it's believed that this is actually what is seen from that perspective, then there is projection. There need not be any projection at all when one is fully conscious. Any personal bias is recognized and seen for what it is and not projected outside onto the object as though it is actually there for everyone else to see. It's true that one may be projecting what is seen, and yet what is seen is actually happening. This happens quite often because the projector is highly attuned to seeing his projection in another, but then we're just dealing with possibilities as the projector can't know if it's actually a valid perception until he stops projecting. yep, this goes some way to explaining how and why you put yourself in an unreproachable position. It explains how and why it makes no sense to you that you could be playing out a caretaker role to some extent. It explains how and why, when people point stuff out to you that they see in you, it seems insane and ludicrous to you. |
|
|
|
Post by andrew on Feb 12, 2013 14:40:15 GMT -5
Whether there is some truth in what I was offering is obviously debatable. And as such I don't have an issue with you suggesting it as a possibility and being open to information that contradicts that suggestion, but what I saw you doing was hammering your point in from every possible angle as though it wasn't debatable at all. Several times I talked of 'speculation' and 'possibility'. You rejected the possibility so I proceeded to show you how and why you might be missing something. Now I am a little clearer as to how and why you would reject what people see in you...it just makes no sense to you that there could be some truth in what we see. |
|
|
|
Post by enigma on Feb 12, 2013 15:24:42 GMT -5
Apparently, I see projections differently than you do. I see all projections as being unconscious by definition. When one becomes conscious of a projection, the projection is withdrawn and is no longer a projection. A perspective based on an interest formed from personal history is not necessarily a projection. We see personal interests happening all the time, which ideally just results in a unique perspective on the 'statue' such that the eyes are of particular interest, or the nobility of the form is particularly appreciated, but it doesn't distort the actual view of the statue. When the statue grows a tail and long neck, and it's believed that this is actually what is seen from that perspective, then there is projection. There need not be any projection at all when one is fully conscious. Any personal bias is recognized and seen for what it is and not projected outside onto the object as though it is actually there for everyone else to see. It's true that one may be projecting what is seen, and yet what is seen is actually happening. This happens quite often because the projector is highly attuned to seeing his projection in another, but then we're just dealing with possibilities as the projector can't know if it's actually a valid perception until he stops projecting. yep, this goes some way to explaining how and why you put yourself in an unreproachable position. It explains how and why it makes no sense to you that you could be playing out a caretaker role to some extent. It explains how and why, when people point stuff out to you that they see in you, it seems insane and ludicrous to you. Yeah, I spose it does. I don't really know what it means to put myself in "an unreproachable position". It obviously doesn't mean I can't be reproached by others, cuz that happens daily. I think it means I don't accept the projections of others. That's true 'nuff. I enjoy helping others, and I also like fixing things and figuring out how things work. It's a challenge and I find it satisfying in various ways. That focus obviously also gets played out here on the forum and it's here for all to see. The fact that you refer to this dynamic as projection of hurt issues and role playing suggests to me that you see this dynamic as unconscious, problematic and in need of fixing. I, OTOH, see no such problem. When others point out to me their own projections and patronizingly suggest I might want to have a look at that, then yes, it looks a bit ludicrous. |
|
|
|
Post by enigma on Feb 12, 2013 15:28:12 GMT -5
And as such I don't have an issue with you suggesting it as a possibility and being open to information that contradicts that suggestion, but what I saw you doing was hammering your point in from every possible angle as though it wasn't debatable at all. Several times I talked of 'speculation' and 'possibility'. You rejected the possibility so I proceeded to show you how and why you might be missing something. Now I am a little clearer as to how and why you would reject what people see in you...it just makes no sense to you that there could be some truth in what we see. And it makes no sense to you that there may not be any truth in it, and so you can call it speculation and possibility, but you know it to be fact and not debatable at all. It's just a pretense of openness to debate, a bit like our friend Tzu. |
|
|
|
Post by tzujanli on Feb 12, 2013 15:32:47 GMT -5
Greetings.. yep, this goes some way to explaining how and why you put yourself in an unreproachable position. It explains how and why it makes no sense to you that you could be playing out a caretaker role to some extent. It explains how and why, when people point stuff out to you that they see in you, it seems insane and ludicrous to you. Yeah, I spose it does. I don't really know what it means to put myself in "an unreproachable position". It obviously doesn't mean I can't be reproached by others, cuz that happens daily. I think it means I don't accept the projections of others. That's true 'nuff. I enjoy helping others, and I also like fixing things and figuring out how things work. It's a challenge and I find it satisfying in various ways. That focus obviously also gets played out here on the forum and it's here for all to see. The fact that you refer to this dynamic as projection of hurt issues and role playing suggests to me that you see this dynamic as unconscious, problematic and in need of fixing. I, OTOH, see no such problem. When others point out to me their own projections and patronizingly suggest I might want to have a look at that, then yes, it looks a bit ludicrous. And, when others bring their own version of this practice, there is conflict.. neither willing to engage the other openly and honestly, without resort to judgement and manipulation.. Be well.. |
|
|
|
Post by andrew on Feb 12, 2013 15:37:16 GMT -5
yep, this goes some way to explaining how and why you put yourself in an unreproachable position. It explains how and why it makes no sense to you that you could be playing out a caretaker role to some extent. It explains how and why, when people point stuff out to you that they see in you, it seems insane and ludicrous to you. Yeah, I spose it does. I don't really know what it means to put myself in "an unreproachable position". It obviously doesn't mean I can't be reproached by others, cuz that happens daily. I think it means I don't accept the projections of others. That's true 'nuff. I enjoy helping others, and I also like fixing things and figuring out how things work. It's a challenge and I find it satisfying in various ways. That focus obviously also gets played out here on the forum and it's here for all to see. The fact that you refer to this dynamic as projection of hurt issues and role playing suggests to me that you see this dynamic as unconscious, problematic and in need of fixing. I, OTOH, see no such problem. When others point out to me their own projections and patronizingly suggest I might want to have a look at that, then yes, it looks a bit ludicrous. From your perspective in which you see yourself as 'conscious', anything that we see in you would seem like an (unconscious) projection to you, and so is rejected outright. Its kind of a circular logic. For example, if I see something in you that you don't see, then it must mean that I am (unconsciously) projecting because you are 'conscious' and would see it if it was there to be seen. I see a massive problem/flaw in you are saying, and if I thought that you had some interest in understanding what I see, I would give it a go, but honestly, I just don't think you are. And I kind of understand why.... in your perspective, you cannot see HOW you could be missing something so anything I see is just gonna be more unconscious projection. In a nutshell though, the problem is with the idea of 'being conscious'. |
|
|
|
Post by tzujanli on Feb 12, 2013 15:38:01 GMT -5
Greetings.. Several times I talked of 'speculation' and 'possibility'. You rejected the possibility so I proceeded to show you how and why you might be missing something. Now I am a little clearer as to how and why you would reject what people see in you...it just makes no sense to you that there could be some truth in what we see. And it makes no sense to you that there may not be any truth in it, and so you can call it speculation and possibility, but you know it to be fact and not debatable at all. I t's just a pretense of openness to debate, a bit like our friend Tzu. There is no pretense on my part, Phil.. you refuse to engage, and so you cannot know.. no, our past 'debates' failed because if it didn't go your way, you mocked and ridiculed, unwilling to stay in the discussion and see what might be revealed.. Be well.. |
|
|
|
Post by andrew on Feb 12, 2013 15:39:45 GMT -5
Several times I talked of 'speculation' and 'possibility'. You rejected the possibility so I proceeded to show you how and why you might be missing something. Now I am a little clearer as to how and why you would reject what people see in you...it just makes no sense to you that there could be some truth in what we see. And it makes no sense to you that there may not be any truth in it, and so you can call it speculation and possibility, but you know it to be fact and not debatable at all. It's just a pretense of openness to debate, a bit like our friend Tzu. No. Hang on. I am in a position which enables me to acknowledge that I might be purely speculating. One of the benefits of not 'being conscious' is that I dont start from the assumption that what I see is necessarily true. It is my opinion that there is something in what I said, I can't help my feeling about that, but its not like I've never been wrong. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2013 15:46:56 GMT -5
I also concur, but will add that one of the beautiful things i see in people is they have the power to change is they choose to. |
|
