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Post by enigma on Feb 6, 2013 21:50:18 GMT -5
Greetings.. If we will simply look at what is happening, without attachments to beliefs, desires, goals,and expectations, much of the conflict apparent in this forum will fall away.. If you think you know the answer, keep looking.. If you know you know the answer, look more.. Believing that you know the answer, keeps you from seeing the possibility that there is much more unknown, than known.. it creates an unwillingness to 'look', even the 'great teachers' who believed their's was 'the' way, were attached and stuck to that 'limitation'.. not giving themselves the liberation to see clearly, but only to see what they 'believe'.. Mostly, we argue for our own limitations.. Be well.. I really like this>>>"Mostly, we argue for our own limitations..." That like, and 6 minutes with a microwave oven and a frozen burrito, will get me a warm burrito. |
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Post by silver on Feb 6, 2013 21:51:37 GMT -5
I really like this>>>"Mostly, we argue for our own limitations..." That like, and 6 minutes with a microwave oven and a frozen burrito, will get me a warm burrito. That's it! Happiness is a warm burrito - ma~* |
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Post by enigma on Feb 6, 2013 21:55:29 GMT -5
If you are getting weary, is it something someone else is doing or something you are doing that is making you weary? No I don't know why you are agreeing with M-G about speculating. If you go back to the post where he said the one-word "Speculation", I was explaining to you what I viewed Enigma's intent was. So Enigma is very much involved. Either I was speculating about what Enigma intended, or Enigma was speculating about you and I was continuing that speculation. I honestly don't comprehend what you are agreeing with M-G about. M-G posted one word and didn't explain what we was seeing as speculation. You took that one-word and expounded on it to 50. Emotionally what I got from your post was "butt out". You didn't like me giving my interpretation of what Enigma was trying to say. Yes, I'm weary for a couple or three reasons, Top. So, I guess I could say 1/3rd is the rations on this forum that never seem to end; another 1/3rd is working out my own mental/emotional/etc. challenges with my own counselor, and the last 1/3rd is that the 3rd anniversary of my son's passing is coming up Valentine's Day which brings with it the expected extra emotionally challenging aspects. I've enjoyed being more quiet here at ST for the past few days. So, Top - will you forgive me if all I can say right now is that when I read M-G's post and the others, that he said it was speculation made sense to me at the time. I don't read E's posts any more than I have to. A wise man once said "Not until we are lost do we begin to understand ourselves." |
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Post by silver on Feb 6, 2013 21:57:03 GMT -5
Yes, I'm weary for a couple or three reasons, Top. So, I guess I could say 1/3rd is the rations on this forum that never seem to end; another 1/3rd is working out my own mental/emotional/etc. challenges with my own counselor, and the last 1/3rd is that the 3rd anniversary of my son's passing is coming up Valentine's Day which brings with it the expected extra emotionally challenging aspects. I've enjoyed being more quiet here at ST for the past few days. So, Top - will you forgive me if all I can say right now is that when I read M-G's post and the others, that he said it was speculation made sense to me at the time. I don't read E's posts any more than I have to. A wise man once said "Not until we are lost do we begin to understand ourselves." Uh huh. And what of it? Why do you think I put that under my avy? |
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Post by enigma on Feb 6, 2013 21:57:09 GMT -5
I can't help but wonder, if I knew what words you thought you read in Top's post, would your response make any more sense to me? That question didn't even make a lick o' sense to me, E. That makes a lot of sense to me. |
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Post by topology on Feb 6, 2013 22:10:53 GMT -5
I dunno about you Topology, but i have yet to see silver respond favourably to being pushed, but you go right ahead and continue pushing. What i have noticed is people will conform to the desires of the forceful pusher, for a time. But when the pushing ceases, the person reverts back to their natural state. That people will change/conform soley to stop being pushed around. It's a temporary change. The connotation of pushing that you are using here is not the connotation of pushing I would self-describe myself as using. Your connotation seems to include domination. The kind of pushing I'm referring to is challenging interpretations and asking people to examine what is going on. If you have not done so yet, I would highly recommend reading the bad-poetry thread from the beginning. This provides a much needed context for the current dynamic between many of the players here. You've chosen to involve yourself, now please educate yourself. At least the first 20 pages, but it would be best to continue until past the point where Silver says she feels like an Atom-Bomb went off in her head and I helped her see that neither Reefs nor Enigma put that atom bomb there. My pushing on Silver is exemplified in that thread. I understand the perspective that Enigma is coming from and I've been somewhat successful at translation. Enigma's posting style is very easy to project interpretation onto. Either that is his natural mode of expression or he finds it useful for eliciting giraffes. His primary message is to become aware of the added interpretation we layer on top of what is actually said. Of course someone will have a hard time hearing that message when they feel like every interaction is pushing their buttons. The pushed willingly shoves their persona aside to accomodate the new persona, only because they are being forced to by the pusher. When the pushing ceases, due to the pusher is now happy mchappy happy the pushed has been converted to what they think they should be like, aka shoving personal beliefs onto others. After the pushing has ceased, when the pushed feels safe, they will throw out the forced in persona and allow their own persona to go back to it's original position. Some of you here even commented on the impermanent change wrought by pushing as you examined the tactics of RT. Even the RTers expressed how disappointed they were to see so many genuine liberatees(converts) return to their old ways after the liberation process was completed. Yet here some of you are using the same process, just dialed down a bit, and constantly claiming it is the pushee that is the problem in the process. There's a difference between energetic domination and applying pressure to become more aware of the dynamics going on. You and Tzu both have made comparisons to RT. I see a difference. RT exemplified brainwashing. The challenging and pushing we do on this forum is more anti-hypnosis. If nobody/nothing pushed on you during times of stagnation, would you have made as much an effort to become less stagnant? Pushing doesn't have to be negative. Yeah, the lazy part of us doesn't like it. The ego doesn't want to be told its missing something. I have found that walking side by side with someone, and pointing to things of interest engages my fellow traveler waaaaaaaaay more than pushing them around. I offer, and i'm ok with either decision they make, whether they go have a look or not. [/font] See above.
And i am of the opinion that pushing people around is not a valuable interaction, unless you are on a football field, and are a football player,
and you are trying to either take a piece of leather over a line on the ground or make sure your team mate is unhindered in their attempt.[/quote] We are not talking about the same kind of pushing. A coach/teacher/friend/caring-family member will push when they see something as being in our best interest that we are not seeing for ourselves. If you know silver doesn't respond favourably to being pushed, perhaps you may have more success
if you detached from your belief that pushing is the best or only way to help silver. Over the last few days I've been sitting down with my wife being confrontational. We've been locked in co-dependency, passive-aggressive behavior, avoidance patterns etc. I'm wanting to move out of these dynamics with her. Pushing her to face these issues and to face our underlying unhappiness was exactly what was called for. I'm changing, ultimately if she doesn't change with me then I'm divorcing her. So I have to push on the stagnation to see if there is anything that can awaken and meet me as I move forward. An intervention is pushing. A come to Jesus meeting is pushing. A let's grow up and start maturing talk is pushing. It's pushing for growth, and the Ego hates it at first and perceives it as attack. (Course In Miracles) |
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Post by silver on Feb 6, 2013 22:16:44 GMT -5
That question didn't even make a lick o' sense to me, E. That makes a lot of sense to me. We've always been talking 2 different languages, E. Plenty of peeps have left because of your different language. But that's chipotle sauce under the bridge.  About all you and I have in common is we're never in shortage of opinions.  |
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Post by silver on Feb 6, 2013 22:22:59 GMT -5
I think it's the other way round.
I think the messy house is a symbolic reflection of the mess inside.
Clean the inner mess and the house will stop being messy because you will be joyful to clean it.
And observing you are not in control of your emotional tension build up, simply means you are aware you currently are not in control.
You can then choose to remain out of control or regain control.
Which of course these decision paths will be influenced by your current beliefs about what is a self and do you have control of said self or not.The most "control" I have over emotions is not with their generation, but with the willingness to be aware of them and process them. Do you believe you are able to control your emotional reactions to things? Y'know, I had serious problems with my son challenging at the wrong times. I think this is one of those moments for you. I don't always agree with M-G, but I think these points that he made are something you should come empty to, and give them some time. |
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Post by topology on Feb 6, 2013 22:28:37 GMT -5
If you are getting weary, is it something someone else is doing or something you are doing that is making you weary? No I don't know why you are agreeing with M-G about speculating. If you go back to the post where he said the one-word "Speculation", I was explaining to you what I viewed Enigma's intent was. So Enigma is very much involved. Either I was speculating about what Enigma intended, or Enigma was speculating about you and I was continuing that speculation. I honestly don't comprehend what you are agreeing with M-G about. M-G posted one word and didn't explain what we was seeing as speculation. You took that one-word and expounded on it to 50. Emotionally what I got from your post was "butt out". You didn't like me giving my interpretation of what Enigma was trying to say. Yes, I'm weary for a couple or three reasons, Top. So, I guess I could say 1/3rd is the rations on this forum that never seem to end; another 1/3rd is working out my own mental/emotional/etc. challenges with my own counselor, and the last 1/3rd is that the 3rd anniversary of my son's passing is coming up Valentine's Day which brings with it the expected extra emotionally challenging aspects. I've enjoyed being more quiet here at ST for the past few days. So, Top - will you forgive me if all I can say right now is that when I read M-G's post and the others, that he said it was speculation made sense to me at the time. I don't read E's posts any more than I have to. I can understand and empathize with your weariness. I spent a few days journalling to dig through the emotions that were coming up about the frustrations with my wife. I literally spent several hours trying to sift through the reactivity and intense negativity to get down to some core issues that I was having. If I had come at my wife with just the surface emotion, I would have made things worse and worse as she would fall into her own negative reactive patterns. Being prone to codependency, afraid to break up, afraid to have someone thinking negatively of me or hating my guts, mixed in with some guilt I was feeling for previous relationships gone bad, it was very scary to initiate the conversation with my wife. She did go into negative reaction several times. But I stuck with non-reactivity and with explaining the issues that I was seeing. After she was knocked off "balance" by some confrontation from my mother (who was not as gentle as I was), she was able to let go and hear me more clearly. When I was finally able to communicate that I just wanted both of us to be happy whether that was together or separate and she could hear that genuine intention, she released her resistance. But she couldn't hear me or recognize my intent because my confrontation was jeopardizing an image she was trying to hold onto in her mind. Current plan is for us is to go into marriage counselling. I want us to go back to looking at how either of us wants to grow/evolve (without consideration of the other person), what we want out of a relationship partner (without consideration of the other person), and what our core values are to see if we are genuinely compatible or not. I see a lot of difference from each other. We are two oxen yolked together who want to move in different directions. It makes the yolk chaffe, feeling like a choking collar instead of a means for sharing the load. |
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Post by topology on Feb 6, 2013 22:31:31 GMT -5
The most "control" I have over emotions is not with their generation, but with the willingness to be aware of them and process them. Do you believe you are able to control your emotional reactions to things? Y'know, I had serious problems with my son challenging at the wrong times. I think this is one of those moments for you. I don't always agree with M-G, but I think these points that he made are something you should come empty to, and give them some time. You had serious problems with your son challenging (you) at the wrong times? What would be the "right" time? Are you projecting on me? |
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Post by topology on Feb 6, 2013 22:34:46 GMT -5
That makes a lot of sense to me. We've always been talking 2 different languages, E. Plenty of peeps have left because of your different language. But that's chipotle sauce under the bridge. About all you and I have in common is we're never in shortage of opinions. Why hoist it all on E? Are there not other posters here who contribute? Is it not up to the poster themselves to decide if the environment that exists presently is the right environment for them? |
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Post by silver on Feb 6, 2013 22:38:39 GMT -5
Y'know, I had serious problems with my son challenging at the wrong times. I think this is one of those moments for you. I don't always agree with M-G, but I think these points that he made are something you should come empty to, and give them some time. You had serious problems with your son challenging (you) at the wrong times? What would be the "right" time? Are you projecting on me? First, I comment on the previous post about your domestic problems and the fact that you are planning to get the counseling - At this point, it can't hurt, and I commend you for making this effort to see what can be done. My reaction to "Are you projecting on me?" was eyes widened and just said Oh! My mentioning of my son and I with our particular problems was mentioned as an aside, a thing in common, but at no time do I pretend to know that we are having totally identical challenging issues - fyi. The comment about what would be the right time - I'd have to tell our life stories to best answer that, and that isn't going to happen. |
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Post by topology on Feb 6, 2013 22:49:53 GMT -5
You had serious problems with your son challenging (you) at the wrong times? What would be the "right" time? Are you projecting on me? First, I comment on the previous post about your domestic problems and the fact that you are planning to get the counseling - At this point, it can't hurt, and I commend you for making this effort to see what can be done. My reaction to "Are you projecting on me?" was eyes widened and just said Oh! My mentioning of my son and I with our particular problems was mentioned as an aside, a thing in common, but at no time do I pretend to know that we are having totally identical challenging issues - fyi. The comment about what would be the right time - I'd have to tell our life stories to best answer that, and that isn't going to happen. I got no problem with sharing my life story, and I do share portions of it when it is relevant. I'm not saying you and I are having the same issues. I'm saying you might be relating to me as if I am your son, meaning you're interpreting and responding to me as if I was your son. (saying I have the same "problem" that he has). I'm a generation younger than you. You mentioned that he is coming up for you because the anniversary of his passing is coming up. I'm just asking if that might be influencing how you interpret me. |
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Post by silver on Feb 6, 2013 23:02:50 GMT -5
First, I comment on the previous post about your domestic problems and the fact that you are planning to get the counseling - At this point, it can't hurt, and I commend you for making this effort to see what can be done. My reaction to "Are you projecting on me?" was eyes widened and just said Oh! My mentioning of my son and I with our particular problems was mentioned as an aside, a thing in common, but at no time do I pretend to know that we are having totally identical challenging issues - fyi. The comment about what would be the right time - I'd have to tell our life stories to best answer that, and that isn't going to happen. I got no problem with sharing my life story, and I do share portions of it when it is relevant. I'm not saying you and I are having the same issues. I'm saying you might be relating to me as if I am your son, meaning you're interpreting and responding to me as if I was your son. (saying I have the same "problem" that he has). I'm a generation younger than you. You mentioned that he is coming up for you because the anniversary of his passing is coming up. I'm just asking if that might be influencing how you interpret me. I don't think I'm projecting - I always thought that was a complicated word in that context - I said it with a general parallel situation in mind, really. |
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Post by enigma on Feb 6, 2013 23:35:08 GMT -5
That makes a lot of sense to me. We've always been talking 2 different languages, E. Plenty of peeps have left because of your different language. But that's chipotle sauce under the bridge. About all you and I have in common is we're never in shortage of opinions. I don't seem to have much in the way of opinions. What opinions I do have don't seem to matter. |
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