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Post by Reefs on Jan 24, 2013 11:26:20 GMT -5
I wouldn't say that surgeons, construction workers and other tradesmen need to be free of internal conflicts to do their job well for obvious reasons. Social work on the other hand is a different story. You get into people trying to heal other people's issues. Until one's own issues get resolved, that's pretty much all they will be working with no matter how many degrees they have or books they've read. I understand what you're saying. What I'm pointing at is not all social workers make the conscious decision to be of service to wholeness. Doesn't necessarily mean they are incapable of relieving suffering. They may, indeed, be coming from compassion, but without the focus on wholeness. But I feel the social worker who is resting in awareness is most effective. Only the social worker that isn't seeing himself as a social worker is really 'effective'. Which means the real social worker isn't necessarily a social worker by profession, most likely not. |
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Post by laughter on Jan 24, 2013 11:28:03 GMT -5
effect requires cause for its definition
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Post by silence on Jan 24, 2013 11:32:11 GMT -5
I wouldn't say that surgeons, construction workers and other tradesmen need to be free of internal conflicts to do their job well for obvious reasons. Social work on the other hand is a different story. You get into people trying to heal other people's issues. Until one's own issues get resolved, that's pretty much all they will be working with no matter how many degrees they have or books they've read. I understand what you're saying. What I'm pointing at is not all social workers make the conscious decision to be of service to wholeness. Doesn't necessarily mean they are incapable of relieving suffering. They may, indeed, be coming from compassion, but without the focus on wholeness. But I feel the social worker who is resting in awareness is most effective. Focusing on wholeness is just another mind trick to convince oneself that they're acting selflessly. The one who actually recognizes their wholeness doesn't spend any time thinking about such things. As you say, there isn't any conscious decision necessary to relieve suffering. Simply being there without an agenda is often sufficient. Even so, the most hate filled lunatic has the potential to make someone feel better even if it's only by helping them see themselves in a better light compared to the lunatic. The question really becomes about what it means to be effective when you're trying to help someone. The one who is themselves in conflict and turmoil can almost certainly help someone somewhere feel better. They however can not show anyone the way to healing their inner divisions because they haven't yet found the way. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2013 11:35:34 GMT -5
I understand what you're saying. What I'm pointing at is not all social workers make the conscious decision to be of service to wholeness. Doesn't necessarily mean they are incapable of relieving suffering. They may, indeed, be coming from compassion, but without the focus on wholeness. But I feel the social worker who is resting in awareness is most effective. Only the social worker that isn't seeing himself as a social worker is really 'effective'. Which means the real social worker isn't necessarily a social worker by profession, most likely not. Not necessarily. The real social worker understands the solution isn't going to be found on the same level of the problem. |
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Post by Reefs on Jan 24, 2013 11:39:08 GMT -5
Only the social worker that isn't seeing himself as a social worker is really 'effective'. Which means the real social worker isn't necessarily a social worker by profession, most likely not. Not necessarily. The real social worker understands the solution isn't going to be found on the same level of the problem. The real social worker isn't operating with concepts like 'problems', 'solutions' or 'levels'. That's the point I was trying to make. |
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Post by topology on Jan 24, 2013 11:42:10 GMT -5
Love and service is a natural expression of wholeness. Can someone truly perform "Right Action" without first realizing their own wholeness? When acting from a sick and fractured mind, the result is sickness and fracture. The adage "Physician Heal thyself" seems appropriate. Many harms have been done with the intent of doing good. When you take care of yourself to the point your cup runneth over, the spillover is what you give back. Stewardship begins with the stewardship of your own immediate context. CHEGG! You are calling me the testicle of an african man? ;D |
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Post by laughter on Jan 24, 2013 11:45:12 GMT -5
I think that Mitochondrial Eve might take issue with that!
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Post by topology on Jan 24, 2013 11:45:30 GMT -5
Love and service is a natural expression of wholeness. Can someone truly perform "Right Action" without first realizing their own wholeness? When acting from a sick and fractured mind, the result is sickness and fracture. The adage "Physician Heal thyself" seems appropriate. Many harms have been done with the intent of doing good. When you take care of yourself to the point your cup runneth over, the spillover is what you give back. Stewardship begins with the stewardship of your own immediate context. I think it can go both ways, and is intertwined. I had a friend that was moved to give, and went to India and worked in an orphanage there. It was a very enlightening experience for him, and I think he was happier there than he has ever been before or since. I also think it profoundly affected his value system. On the other hand, I also have a reference for pious do-gooder types that come wearing smiles but are judgemental and unforgiving as hell. I don't trust the do-gooder, but then I don't trust someone that claims to come from love but whose focus is absent of any consideration of giving or serving or loving. Identification can come in many forms. For your friend that moved, he probably had no idea what he was getting into, just a deep seated yearning. He followed that yearning, his own yearning. That was taking care of himself first. |
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Post by laughter on Jan 24, 2013 11:55:30 GMT -5
Not necessarily. The real social worker understands the solution isn't going to be found on the same level of the problem. The real social worker isn't operating with concepts like 'problems', 'solutions' or 'levels'. That's the point I was trying to make. The role of "social worker" defines a component of a machine. To speak of some entity that: isn't operating with concepts like 'problems', 'solutions' or 'levels' ... becomes obviously problematic because it appears to refer to only that which would mis-identify with the body-mind stamped with the component-label. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2013 11:56:18 GMT -5
Not necessarily. The real social worker understands the solution isn't going to be found on the same level of the problem. The real social worker isn't operating with concepts like 'problems', 'solutions' or 'levels'. That's the point I was trying to make. Trying to make a point like this is really quite effortless. |
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Post by zendancer on Jan 24, 2013 13:16:43 GMT -5
Thanks ZD. I gotta admit to being surpised by: the universe, as manifested by particular body/minds, often goes no further than Self-realization and becomes attached to the idea that Self-realization ends the process of Self-discovery. I'm taking Self-realization there to refer to Satori. I don't discuss the implications of this, nor what can happen after realization as a result of sustained samadhi because there seems to be no interest on this forum. I guess then that I've mistaken the interest expressed in ATA by many here as some of this interest that you didn't see.  ... while obviously not exactly the same thing there's a sort of inevitablity at play that leads the mind to an inferred similarity of topic. I'm reminded of the technique of speaking quieter and quieter and more and more calmly during a business meeting as things get heated in order to restore order and focus. What I meant is that activities such as ATA and shikan taza are initially a means to an end. After satori, some people lose interest in meditative activities and some don't. If those activities continue subsequent to satori, they are no longer pursued because there are ideas about someone getting something as a result. It is more a case of what Adyashanti describes as "allowing things to be as they are." The universe ceases to identify as a person, but continues to look non-conceptually both within and without. This naturally leads to the kind of wholeness, service, and love that Top, Arisha, and others have pointed to. Service is rendered without reflection or conceived motive. |
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Post by laughter on Jan 24, 2013 13:36:05 GMT -5
Thank you for taking the time to spell that out ... I had all of it on board already though. The surprise that I was referring to in my last revolved specifically around the use of the word "attachment". There was no way I was going to ask you if you still meditated based on what you had said!  ... not even if I'd had only this limited conversation to go on. |
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Post by enigma on Jan 24, 2013 14:50:43 GMT -5
Yes, love and service are the natural result of realization. The sooner one starts with love and service the better results one has on their path to awakening. One has fewer and fewer blocks on the path if one does Right Action. If realization results in love, then love does not result in realization. What is being put forth as love prior to realization is not love at all, but some imagined idea of what love should be. This is why it fails. |
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Post by enigma on Jan 24, 2013 14:51:35 GMT -5
Yes, love and service are the natural result of realization. The sooner one starts with love and service the better results one has on their path to awakening. One has fewer and fewer blocks on the path if one does Right Action. Love and service is a natural expression of wholeness. Can someone truly perform "Right Action" without first realizing their own wholeness? When acting from a sick and fractured mind, the result is sickness and fracture. The adage "Physician Heal thyself" seems appropriate. Many harms have been done with the intent of doing good. When you take care of yourself to the point your cup runneth over, the spillover is what you give back. Stewardship begins with the stewardship of your own immediate context. Zzzzackly. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2013 14:55:52 GMT -5
What is being put forth as love prior to realization is not love at all, but some imagined idea of what love should be. This is why it fails. Negativity is born in the gap where love has been excluded. |
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... while obviously not exactly the same thing there's a sort of inevitablity at play that leads the mind to an inferred similarity of topic. 
... not even if I'd had only this limited conversation to go on.
