fear
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Posts: 128
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Post by fear on May 11, 2009 14:20:27 GMT -5
In all of recorded history, there are probably less than a hundred people and that's being generous, who most of which are men, that have awakened to their true nature or enlightenment as some call it.
I don't know how to do the math but I'm guessing that trillions of people have lived and died on earth. Of all these only a handful have freed themselves. Is this an indication of how difficult it is? Or is the human race just not ready to live in reality? Who knows.
What this means to me is that the ego is so deceiving and so intelligent that most people can't escape it's grip. Think of all the times you saw a piece of chocolate and you knew you shouldn't eat it but you just couldn't resist. When you cracked that 10th bottle of beer to keep the buzz. When you knew that what you were doing was wrong but just justified it away as "ok, just this one time".
All these justifications and moments of weakness really add up. They add us just like that piggy bank where you dropped coins in and it soon added up to a large amount. We build and build on top of ourselves.
Old habits die hard, we become stuck in our ways and then we suddenly find a new way to find the "truth", and we realize that we have to start breaking down the huge building that we have built on our shoulders and it's not such an easy task. It's easier to keep doing what you are doing and pretend to be working hard toward your spiritual growth but we never attack the big issues. We sweep a couple things under the carpet and maybe move a little funiture around so that it appears different.
This is why so few are enlightened. The are the few with the courage to bring that building down slowly while still living. Death is the earthquake that brings the whole building down, all at once. A little terrifying from my experience, not to scare anyone.
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Post by The Uncreated on May 11, 2009 15:45:38 GMT -5
Few people ever endeavour to crack the system, so to speak, that the number that awaken is likely a direct result of so few ever feeling the urge.
Having said that, the number might be somewhat higher than estimated because the experience is one of little interest to the average person such that revealing that a transformation had taken place is not likely to be met with wide acceptance -- there are probably many more among us that have awakened and not realized it, or worse, mistaken it for some sort of mania or madness (Suzanne Segal and U.G. Krishnamurti for instance). So the urge not to speak about it is likely to be quite strong.
While I've had my own extremely brief encounter with the feeling of nonduality, explaining this to the average person would probably generate blank stares at the very least. I am convinced beyond a shadow of a doubt, however, that nonduality is very real and not simply a manic state brought upon by wishful thinking or depersonalization as critics are inclined to argue.
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Post by Peter on May 12, 2009 3:32:18 GMT -5
In all of recorded history, there are probably less than a hundred people and that's being generous, who most of which are men, that have awakened to their true nature or enlightenment as some call it. As Uncreated said, you're only able to look at people who declared their Awakening, and further, only those who were able to do so successfully! I mean, we're talking about communicating That About Which Nothing Can Be Said. As I understand it, Enlightenment neither makes one articulate, nor instantly bestows any talent for teaching. Also, something I came across when I had a brush with non-consensual reality is that everything might be fine just the way it is. Why would you then want to teach from that, unless you either think that the world needs to be changed, or had a penchant for teaching and would be doing so regardless. Besides, all the information people need for this work is already out there - misunderstood and ignored. Why add to the confusion? People will find what they need when they're ready to find it. So I see it anyway. Also I'm really into exploring 'Free Will' at the moment. Why would you try to help someone unless they asked to be helped? And if they're able to ask, won't the universe provide that teaching in the most efficient form it's able? Why would a person - free from ego - decide that they can do it better? I think an unenlightened teacher who's good at teaching could be a lot more use that an unenlightened one who is not. I checked up on this number (for reasons that have previously been discussed) and according to the Population Reference Bureau, you're only out by an order of magnitude - 106 billion they calculate (so the current world population represents 6% of Everybody Who Has Ever Lived). www.prb.org/Articles/2002/HowManyPeopleHaveEverLivedonEarth.aspxWikipedia also proved interesting, especially the map of population distribution if you scroll down to it: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_populationIf you consider the hypothesis of reincarnation, then that changes the numbers somewhat. Two thoughts spring to mind: 1. Population of non-human animals (especially insects) is decreasing as alarmingly as the population of human animals is increasing. Although a ecological disaster, from a spiritual point of view could we be seeing the evolution of souls to higher forms? 2. As most of us agree that time is something of an illusion, could souls reincarnate backwards in time? As the 'real' world becomes larger and more complex - sparks of God spread thinner and thinner - could spiritual evolution travel backwards towards simplicity, joining together in eventual union? Will we ourselves eventually discuss philosophy with Socrates, cut mistletoe with sickles and build crystal pyramids in Atlantis? Have you had a Death experience then Fear? Have you written about it already and I missed it? Please post link if so. God I'm rabbiting on this morning. I'll continue in another thread and stop hijacking your one. |
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Post by lightmystic on May 12, 2009 10:43:23 GMT -5
Like others are saying, the number of Enlightened people are significantly higher, it's just that there are very few public figures at any one time that might fit a certain conception of what Enlightenment is. Most Enlightened people are those one would just not hear about.... I found most of the difficulty in reaching Enlightenment comes from resisting, restricting, attempting to control. Without those things, it unravels itself naturally. Of course that can be a difficult process, but it DOES work. Old resistances come from a fear of death, so it takes a lot of time with these feelings so they can release. But it means letting go of all concepts. Perhaps the judgment that drinking the next beer is "bad" is actually more in the way than the beer itself, even IF the beer is being used as an avoidance. It's hard enough letting go of these resistanes as it is, emotionally beating oneself up for it just makes it impossible. It's literally just adding resistance to resistance. No wonder it's so difficult! All habits, useful or not, are innocent! Give your poor self a break! You also have to realize that the idea of Enlightenment is so far fetched and outside most people's experience that they don't even consider it as an option. It takes a real ripeness to even become a seeker, and very few people are actually seekers relative to those on the planet now. And very few of those seekers actually want to find real Enlightenment, even if they think they do.... The idea that there will be one catastrophe and that will be it can happen, but more often I've seen it progress over time. There were certain shifts that happen over time from which there was no going back for (for me it was two and then a final one...), but growth always continues, refines, sinks in, etc.... For me there were many great catastrophes, but they seemed to be more making way for the shifts instead of the actual shifts themselves. There is no "way that it works" and I know that my desires was just to "get it over with" in one big event so I could then be Enlightened. What I discovered, ultimately, was that desire to "get it over with" was an avoidance of life, and that avoidance was actually one of the things in the way of the realization dawning... Resistance means anything we are not okay with, and really feeling into that on the deepest level of our heart lets the resistance gently release itself.... In all of recorded history, there are probably less than a hundred people and that's being generous, who most of which are men, that have awakened to their true nature or enlightenment as some call it. I don't know how to do the math but I'm guessing that trillions of people have lived and died on earth. Of all these only a handful have freed themselves. Is this an indication of how difficult it is? Or is the human race just not ready to live in reality? Who knows. What this means to me is that the ego is so deceiving and so intelligent that most people can't escape it's grip. Think of all the times you saw a piece of chocolate and you knew you shouldn't eat it but you just couldn't resist. When you cracked that 10th bottle of beer to keep the buzz. When you knew that what you were doing was wrong but just justified it away as "ok, just this one time". All these justifications and moments of weakness really add up. They add us just like that piggy bank where you dropped coins in and it soon added up to a large amount. We build and build on top of ourselves. Old habits die hard, we become stuck in our ways and then we suddenly find a new way to find the "truth", and we realize that we have to start breaking down the huge building that we have built on our shoulders and it's not such an easy task. It's easier to keep doing what you are doing and pretend to be working hard toward your spiritual growth but we never attack the big issues. We sweep a couple things under the carpet and maybe move a little funiture around so that it appears different. This is why so few are enlightened. The are the few with the courage to bring that building down slowly while still living. Death is the earthquake that brings the whole building down, all at once. A little terrifying from my experience, not to scare anyone. |
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Post by Peter on May 12, 2009 16:36:03 GMT -5
Resistance means anything we are not okay with, and really feeling into that on the deepest level of our heart lets the resistance gently release itself.... Most cool. That's one of your best yet. I'd credit you a karma point if you weren't already double mine...  |
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Post by pshapiro on May 12, 2009 17:44:59 GMT -5
Hi, It was mentioned in the thread that up to a hundred people could have been enlightened in our recorded history, but if we look at the evidences in the records we'll find that in fact only one or two men have been recorded to have attained Supreme Enlightenment in our history. Why is the number of Enlightened people so small? This is because the trials that one needs to undergo in order to attain the enlightenment are so difficult that nobody can undergo them. It definitely requires incredible conscience and courage to go to people and teach them once you've realized truth in the world. Without love of people you wouldn't go back to teach them. This teaching is the very way someone was able to attain Enlightenment in the past. I hope this is helpful... Paul |
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Post by Peter on May 13, 2009 7:23:09 GMT -5
if we look at the evidences in the records we'll find that in fact only one or two men have been recorded to have attained Supreme Enlightenment in our history. Hmm, I think we may be looking at different evidences here. You've come a long way since your initial tentative posting in September last year, Paul: Hi all, I heard of this man Tathagata who says that he attained Supreme Enlightenment. That man has a sad story to tell though, I really feel for him. Sounds like his heart was in the right place, he just kept getting knocked back by the world.also I feel quite sad...I've been writing this morning about how my brother died. It's good to be sad though, I wouldn't have it any other way. Who'd want to be happy about that? |
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Post by The Uncreated on May 13, 2009 12:34:23 GMT -5
That man has a sad story to tell though, I really feel for him. A curious answer from him on his website:
Q : How were you able to be enlightened ?
A : My Enlightenment is something which I gained in my previous life. It was predetermined to appear again during this life.
A masterful melding of karma and enlightenment. He is basically saying that ego is portable, that it can realize and carry the potential to realize again to a new body when that ego is 'reborn'. He appears to rollin' right along with the wheel of samsara. - |
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Post by lightmystic on May 13, 2009 13:25:28 GMT -5
Yes, he seems to be coming from a place of great division. Enlightenment is not a badge or medal that can be held up as an accomplishment, no matter how hard the trials are. It's not a realization of personal specialness, it's a realization that everything is very special, and always has been.... The unity that comes from Enlightenment puts people on the same playing field. All the Self. Separateness through saying one is greater is silly.... That man has a sad story to tell though, I really feel for him. A curious answer from him on his website:
Q : How were you able to be enlightened ?
A : My Enlightenment is something which I gained in my previous life. It was predetermined to appear again during this life.
A masterful melding of karma and enlightenment. He is basically saying that ego is portable, that it can realize and carry the potential to realize again to a new body when that ego is 'reborn'. He appears to rollin' right along with the wheel of samsara. - |
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Post by eputkonen on May 15, 2009 8:52:37 GMT -5
In all of recorded history, there are probably less than a hundred people and that's being generous, who most of which are men, that have awakened to their true nature or enlightenment as some call it. There have been far more than you imagine. Most were unnoticed. It is this very thought that is a major obstacle to enlightenment. The ego is a mirage, it only fools those who do not recognize it is a mirage. This thought is also an obstacle. Bringing the building down slowly? That will not bring enlightenment. No process or practices are needed...enlightenment is not a doing...something to work at. And that is the main reason why there is so few enlightened...because enlightenment is brining the whole building down at once, and yet still living. The same terror applies. People don't want to die...and enlightenment is death (for the "I" and "me"). |
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fear
Full Member
Posts: 128
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Post by fear on May 20, 2009 16:14:03 GMT -5
Uncreated, in what way did u.g. krishnamurti mistake his awakening for madness? I found him to be of tremendous courage and vitality. Peter, No one I've counted has declared their awakening. In fact if they could have had it their way they would have been forgotten. E.g Socrates, Thomas Moore, Ramana Maharshi, U.G krishnamurti, Bernadette Roberts, even Jesus would all have loved to be forgotten after their death. It's the people around them that felt compelled to keep their memory alive. 106Billion that's 106,000,000,000 people have ever walked the earth. Even if 1 billion were awakened, that still leaves 105 billion lemmings. I did have a death experience (if I must label it), Peter. I posted it as a guest (FHF) a while back. spiritualteachers.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=misc&action=display&thread=60&page=1#392 |
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Post by Peter on May 21, 2009 3:21:59 GMT -5
if they could have had it their way they would have been forgotten. E.g Socrates, Thomas Moore, Ramana Maharshi, U.G krishnamurti, Bernadette Roberts, even Jesus would all have loved to be forgotten Very true, these people really did embody humility. Quite a synchronicity that you mention Thomas More (I presume you mean, not Moore the Irish poet); he came up for me yesterday when I was reading a David Icke book (Infinite Love is the only Truth (2005)) which said that the word Utopia means "No Place" - actually a pun between the Greek for "No place" and "Good place " - which I checked up on. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_More#UtopiaHe was some boy. Even if 1 billion were awakened, that still leaves 105 billion lemmings. That's a whole lot of lemmings Possibly quite a few of them were the same lemming going round and around the wheel of Samsara. Arguably we're all one lemming. Thanks for the link back to you describing your experience, it was good to revisit it. I think for me a "Death" experience (if we're going to use labels) would include the recognition that one is about to die or has died. I think what you experienced was something quite different. Apologies for my haphazard response back in November. Reading it over now I see it was more about what I wanted to say than it was about responding to your posting. |
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Post by Light2Light on May 23, 2009 4:44:36 GMT -5
Enlightenment is a process of being filled with the light of understanding, of being able to see what is real because of this inner power and awakened state.
We cannot say who is and who is not enlightened, because that means different things to different people and even to different cultures. The moment we try to determine the enlightened state of another we are doing two things that immediately work to cloud our vision:
1). we are creating a standard by which another should live
2). we are judging the others "worth"
Only the enlightened truly know who is enlightened - and that knowing, by another name, is "unconditional love"
the word unconditional is key here. We do not judge. We only love. This is the purity of enlightenment in action.
peace,
Light2Light
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Post by lightmystic on May 23, 2009 12:05:31 GMT -5
But aren't you, by saying that, judging the people who judge? Enlightenment is a process of being filled with the light of understanding, of being able to see what is real because of this inner power and awakened state. We cannot say who is and who is not enlightened, because that means different things to different people and even to different cultures. The moment we try to determine the enlightened state of another we are doing two things that immediately work to cloud our vision: 1). we are creating a standard by which another should live 2). we are judging the others "worth" Only the enlightened truly know who is enlightened - and that knowing, by another name, is "unconditional love" the word unconditional is key here. We do not judge. We only love. This is the purity of enlightenment in action. peace, Light2Light |
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Post by Light2Light on May 23, 2009 23:03:06 GMT -5
That is certainly not my intention - but words can be read thru any filter. Perhaps also written such....
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