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Post by zendancer on Apr 17, 2012 8:13:43 GMT -5
You only have become even more illusioned with Oneness. So, you think you are free, and this is the highest criterium. Did you help anybody by being, ( illusionally ), free? Even priorities are wrong with those who accept this teaching. You are not free, and never will. First of all because you are again only about you and yourself. When you forget about yourself and turn your attention to others, then you'll be free. I know there are some language difficulties here, but the way this post is written is highly misleading. When you realize that selfhood is an illusion, you don't become free because you turn attention to others; you are already free. There is no longer "otherness," so there are no specific implications. You may work in a soup kitchen and give away everything you own, or you may become a captain of industry. Freedom manifests differently through every person who realizes freedom. Last week I was invited to join an interfaith panel discussion at a local university--some sort of program sponsored by the White House to encourage interfaith dialogue and understanding. We had a Baptist minister, a Muslim professor, a Jewish Rabbi, a Presbyterian minister, and moi. The subject of the day was how each religion viewed service. Most of the speakers emphasized that service was a tenet and an obligation that his religion demanded. I introduced myself more humorously than the others and said something like, "I'm here as a sort of representative of all the non-duality spiritual traditions, such as Zen, Advaita Vedanta, Taoism, Kabirpanthism, Mystical Christianity, Mystical Islam, etc." I explained that social service is not viewed in the same way from the non-dual perspective as it is in traditional religions. I said that the emphasis in non-dual traditions is self-realization, and it is understood that when self-realization occurs, one spontaneously and automatically then sees other people as part of a unified whole. We therefore effortlessly become service-oriented for two reasons. First, we know that our neighbor is ourself, literally, and second, we live in service to the vastness of what we are. However, I pointed out that this kind of selfless service does not look a particular way because how it will manifest cannot be imagined. However service manifests, there is no one who can take credit for it because it is fundamentally empty of self. I quoted both Bunan ("Die and be completely dead, and then do what you will. It will all be good) and Christ ("Like the Centurion, I am under orders"). My point was that there is no separate person who needs to meet the expectations of either society or religion regarding ideas of service. Each human being who sees through the illusion of selfhood will function effortlessly in service to both God and man, but that service may or may not look like service from a traditional perspective. This is because there is no one doing anything who can take credit or blame for anything. The idea that we can only be free if we act in a certain prescribed way is nonsense. Freedom means freedom. Finally, the person who has become free of selfhood finds social approval for selfless acts somewhat distasteful and usually stays out of the limelight on purpose. If money is given to help people, it is usually given anonymously or accompanied by a story that diminishes the importance of the giver, and if thanks are rendered, they are re-directed to Source, "which is the giver of all good things." The issue of social service is far deeper than what was implied in Arisha's post as it was written, but that may be because there is a language and communication issue. Hopefully she sees more deeply into this than her words implied. |
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Post by Portto on Apr 17, 2012 8:17:32 GMT -5
It's not a joke. My intelligence is too low to not be whined about, and my... well, you know what  , is too big to not be bragged about. False statement + false statement. Since there is no objective measure for either statement, you must be evaluating both relative to yourself. I therefore must on account of your first statement thank you for giving me reason to feel better about myself and at the same time I shall express my sincere sympathy to you. However, concerning your second statement, given that only a man of hopelessly insufficient size would ever feel the desire to belittle that of his opponent without even knowing what exact numbers he is competing with, it must be that your second statement is a lie, which is why again you shall receive my sincere sympathy. A B C The first false statement is "not a joke" and the second is "low intelligence." |
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Post by zendancer on Apr 17, 2012 8:30:44 GMT -5
Don't try to help me, choose somebody else and help. But help not with what YOU want to help, help with what the OTHER needs to be helped about. Well, of course there is nothing wrong with what you are saying there. Not at all. But the fact remains that the absolute truth of a person of higher morality and a person of zero morality is exactly the same. We're all made of the same stuff. All the elements our bodies are comprised of were formed in cores of stars, billions of years ago. And one other thing, everyone who has ever served anyone that they didn't have to, even if it was very difficult to serve them, they did because deep down it made them happy to help them. Like it or not, it all comes down to selfishness in the end. This is not a bad thing.  Ummmm, I would disagree with your last paragraph, Stillness. What I'm pointing to does not come down to selfishness in the end. When selfhood is not a motivational factor, good deeds happen in emptiness, for no reason at all, and there is no one who "feels good" about what is done. There is simply no self-center from which actions emanate. The whole thing has a more matter-of-fact flavor. If a sage gives money or assistance to someone, s/he does not think about it or reflect upon it, and afterwards there is no "warm glow" of satisfaction. Afterwards, the act has totally disappeared because the sage lives only in the present moment. There is no savoring the moment even in the moment. It is too empty for that. The only happiness that occurs is the kind of happiness a messenger feels who has delivered a gift from someone else. There is a kind of joy knowing that the receiver of the gift has been helped by Source, but the messenger or deliverer of the gift only sees himself/herself as a messenger/deliverer and nothing more. |
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Post by esponja on Apr 17, 2012 8:34:00 GMT -5
I saw this Edith Wartin quote today coming out if the Docs, how's this for a sync? If only we'd stop trying to be happy we'd have a pretty good time. Made me smile! Yes, the search for happiness is the cause of misery. Where did the idea come from that something is wrong? That idea, focused on intensely, begins to seem very, very real, and then it's all about solutions. Mind in delusion and fear has made this world in it's image, and it will refer to that world as proof that there is a problem. It's a self fulfilled prophecy, but it begins with you refusing to play the game. Questions need answers and problems need solutions, and the imaginary self cannot exist without them, so they become very important. In a way, we can't live without them, and we don't want to die, so we feel caught between a rock and hard place. This is why we have to get all nondual and throw away the separate identity. It cannot be reconciled. The separate person must have a world of struggle and suffering in order to sustain the sense of self. You are a mental structure composed of need. Without a sense that something is lacking, that something has to be done, you vanish as the person you imagine yourself to be. Stop imagining that anything at all is missing, and very quickly mind will begin weaving a story of lack. It must, it is the life's blood of the separate person. It's a serious existential crisis, and it is pure imagination. You want to play and you want to stop playing. Choose one, not both. Choosing both is what keeps you stuck, but it also keeps 'you' alive, and that's why you do it. Well I've been back through to read the posts. This one made me cry Enigma a real belly cry and in waltz my husband so I then had to explain which is hard, we have a fab relationship but I'm in this spiritual game alone with just you guys and a load of You Tube for company. Not that I'm complaining, but I've decided that you got me into this mess can get me out (smiley face insert). What my husband did say was that one thing was certain I am a generally happier person in the last 12 months than ever before. This feeling of lack (in my case it's related to friends, not meeting my needs, not meeting my expectations of which are never ending. This feeling of searching for scraps, oh they did that for me how kind I have self-worth but then finding 1 thousand other reasons to think they don't like or love me. Not having any very close friends, which I believe is something I've believed into existence, and not having a clue why I feel this way but hearing my mother's voice over and over 'judging others, nobody ever being good enough, finding fault...obviously through some of her own fears or maybe even passed down to her) was making me feel so down, depressed and often I was taken away with it (which I can feel happening right now) and got so carried away at times I could have that odd 'maybe I should end it thought'. If you knew me, you'd laugh, none of this is obvious to an outsider and some might say I almost have it all. So yes I searched for the highs, next Loa book, next YouTube vid, because it helped and appealed more than Antidepressants. SO yes not much has changed, Silence and Jason are right I am looking for the next hit as I haven't had a wave like this for sometime. AND nothing feels any different despite what I've come to know and understand about mind and non-dualism. Obviously I have made progress, yet that is more mind so how is this even possible? I know I have walked away often from reading something on here, with a sense of 'yep it's obvious'. Could it be that I just keep getting sucked back in? Right now I feel as though everything is very very real. I don't really care if I have a purpose in life. So YES I am ready, really ready. why wouldn't I be? I don't want another High, I want out. So what are my expectations?? I am expecting to stop having such a strong belief in my thoughts, to know it is Not who I am, essentially to stop believing there is a separate me. To recognize the love and wholeness I have apparently forgotten I am. Now I see conflict in advice, from ZD saying I have to be warrior-like, maybe for years and be in the moment (like Tolle) or Enigma and others saying I only think I want it but equally it is possible right here right now, but I have to be sure although I don't have a choice, Andrew saying I need to set myself a goal etc etc and I know it's like anything, one size does not fit all...but right here right now I am sincere in this...whatever the hell you want to call it. (ps. I'm coming from this from a feminine expression, am sure it may sound strange to some) |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2012 8:49:25 GMT -5
Well I've been back through to read the posts. This one made me cry Enigma a real belly cry and in waltz my husband so I then had to explain which is hard, we have a fab relationship but I'm in this spiritual game alone with just you guys and a load of You Tube for company. Not that I'm complaining, but I've decided that you got me into this mess can get me out (smiley face insert). I can totally relate to this -- it's nice when that happens. Thanks. I figure these enlightend folks here need us strugglers around, or, like ZD said recently, it would be really really boring. At least what I write offers a different flavor of boring, maybe. |
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Post by Portto on Apr 17, 2012 8:52:23 GMT -5
Last week I was invited to join an interfaith panel discussion at a local university--some sort of program sponsored by the White House to encourage interfaith dialogue and understanding. We had a Baptist minister, a Muslim professor, a Jewish Rabbi, a Presbyterian minister, and moi. The subject of the day was how each religion viewed service. Most of the speakers emphasized that service was a tenet and an obligation that his religion demanded. I introduced myself more humorously than the others and said something like, "I'm here as a sort of representative of all the non-duality spiritual traditions, such as Zen, Advaita Vedanta, Taoism, Kabirpanthism, Mystical Christianity, Mystical Islam, etc." I explained that social service is not viewed in the same way from the non-dual perspective as it is in traditional religions. I said that the emphasis in non-dual traditions is self-realization, and it is understood that when self-realization occurs, one spontaneously and automatically then sees other people as part of a unified whole. We therefore effortlessly become service-oriented for two reasons. First, we know that our neighbor is ourself, literally, and second, we live in service to the vastness of what we are. However, I pointed out that this kind of selfless service does not look a particular way because how it will manifest cannot be imagined. However service manifests, there is no one who can take credit for it because it is fundamentally empty of self. I quoted both Bunan ("Die and be completely dead, and then do what you will. It will all be good) and Christ ("Like the Centurion, I am under orders"). My point was that there is no separate person who needs to meet the expectations of either society or religion regarding ideas of service. Each human being who sees through the illusion of selfhood will function effortlessly in service to both God and man, but that service may or may not look like service from a traditional perspective. This is because there is no one doing anything who can take credit or blame for anything. The idea that we can only be free if we act in a certain prescribed way is nonsense. Freedom means freedom. Groovy! What did the others from the panel say about your humorous and probably unusual introduction / point of view? |
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Post by esponja on Apr 17, 2012 8:52:44 GMT -5
Well I've been back through to read the posts. This one made me cry Enigma a real belly cry and in waltz my husband so I then had to explain which is hard, we have a fab relationship but I'm in this spiritual game alone with just you guys and a load of You Tube for company. Not that I'm complaining, but I've decided that you got me into this mess can get me out (smiley face insert). I can totally relate to this -- it's nice when that happens. Thanks. I figure these enlightend folks here need us strugglers around, or, like ZD said recently, it would be really really boring. At least what I write offers a different flavor of boring, maybe. Hehehe 'struggler' 'boring'...way to pick a girl up ( I Mean make feel better)... Just joking with you of course! |
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Post by relinquish on Apr 17, 2012 9:09:44 GMT -5
Well, of course there is nothing wrong with what you are saying there. Not at all. But the fact remains that the absolute truth of a person of higher morality and a person of zero morality is exactly the same. We're all made of the same stuff. All the elements our bodies are comprised of were formed in cores of stars, billions of years ago. And one other thing, everyone who has ever served anyone that they didn't have to, even if it was very difficult to serve them, they did because deep down it made them happy to help them. Like it or not, it all comes down to selfishness in the end. This is not a bad thing. Ummmm, I would disagree with your last paragraph, Stillness. What I'm pointing to does not come down to selfishness in the end. When selfhood is not a motivational factor, good deeds happen in emptiness, for no reason at all, and there is no one who "feels good" about what is done. There is simply no self-center from which actions emanate. The whole thing has a more matter-of-fact flavor. If a sage gives money or assistance to someone, s/he does not think about it or reflect upon it, and afterwards there is no "warm glow" of satisfaction. Afterwards, the act has totally disappeared because the sage lives only in the present moment. There is no savoring the moment even in the moment. It is too empty for that. The only happiness that occurs is the kind of happiness a messenger feels who has delivered a gift from someone else. There is a kind of joy knowing that the receiver of the gift has been helped by Source, but the messenger or deliverer of the gift only sees himself/herself as a messenger/deliverer and nothing more. Yeah, I know what your saying. I know that what you are pointing to doesn't come down to selfishness in the end. But I would say that the motivation for all action does come down to the apparent selfishness of a self that doesn't actualy exist. Those who have realized this almost always experience a change in their personality, but the personality can't just die all together while the body/mind organism is still apparently alive, because a personality is required for any apparent interaction with the world to take place. Again, as I said, this is not actually a bad thing. In fact, it is here where we find that volition does not exist at all. We realize that we were never someone who directed actions, and we still aren't. |
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Post by question on Apr 17, 2012 9:34:49 GMT -5
A B C The first false statement is "not a joke" and the second is "low intelligence." Okay. In that case I can only say that your first statement is false, because what I said was not intended to be a joke. I still shall thank you and express my sympathy. For knowing of the burden of inferior intelligence I understand that it is difficult to confess in public. And knowing that your burden outweighs even mine, I am relieved to not be the one to bear it. |
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Post by enigma on Apr 17, 2012 10:15:36 GMT -5
But the fact remains that the absolute truth of a person of higher morality and a person of zero morality is exactly the same. We're all made of the same stuff. All the elements our bodies are comprised of were formed in cores of stars, billions of years ago. So absolute truth/oneness is about common elements? |
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Post by Portto on Apr 17, 2012 10:28:36 GMT -5
A B C The first false statement is "not a joke" and the second is "low intelligence." Okay. In that case I can only say that your first statement is false, because what I said was not intended to be a joke. I still shall thank you and express my sympathy. For knowing of the burden of inferior intelligence I understand that it is difficult to confess in public. And knowing that your burden outweighs even mine, I am relieved to not be the one to bear it. Knock yourself out! |
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Post by Portto on Apr 17, 2012 10:39:08 GMT -5
So absolute truth/oneness is about common elements? No, it's about individual souls and infinitely connected parts. ;D |
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Post by enigma on Apr 17, 2012 10:44:11 GMT -5
Ok then. While we are talking about it, how does it make you feel to acknowledge that all the elements that comprise your body and everything in it, everyone elses bodies and everthing in them and every other life form and everything on this planet and the planet itself and every other planet in the universe were formed in cores of trillions of stars, billions of years ago? How does it makes you feel? Don't try to go away from the question arisen. We were talking about selfishness deep down in every person, and not about this universal stuff, which is the subject of a different discussion. Stillness is right. Self fulfillment is the nature of all things. All of creation is serving itself, and when there is innocence, it also serves everything else, just as the tree provides fruit that contains it's own seed, and inhales as the creatures exhale, and breathes out as they breathe in. It is inherent in the singular movement of creation unfolding as one. Even the master serves only himself, though all is seen to be himself. Between the innocence of the fruit tree, and the wisdom of the master, lies the ignorance of mankind. |
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Post by question on Apr 17, 2012 10:46:18 GMT -5
Okay. In that case I can only say that your first statement is false, because what I said was not intended to be a joke. I still shall thank you and express my sympathy. For knowing of the burden of inferior intelligence I understand that it is difficult to confess in public. And knowing that your burden outweighs even mine, I am relieved to not be the one to bear it. Knock yourself out! You already beat me to it. |
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Post by Portto on Apr 17, 2012 10:49:24 GMT -5
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, is too big to not be bragged about.
