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Post by andrew on Apr 18, 2012 3:01:24 GMT -5
Its premise is that you dont HAVE to feel (and think) a certain way. It's premise is that you CAN think and feel a certain way and not another. It's an imaginary one-ended stick. It works for exactly as long as you can ignore the other end of the stick and pretend it's not there, which for most isn't long. Initially I was going to say that its premise is that you CAN think and feel a certain way, but I think its more accurate to say that its premise is that you dont HAVE to feel (and think) a certain way. The goal of most books of that ilk that I have read is to undermine conditioned patterns in which we are taught that we SHOULD feel certain ways in certain situations. The books will say....'No, you dont have to feel that way. You are free to make a different choice'. |
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Post by andrew on Apr 18, 2012 3:09:38 GMT -5
Just to clarify, there is no such thing as a one ended stick, by definition. There is only the illusion of a two ended stick i.e the illusion of two absolute opposites, that we consciously experience in simple terms as aversion and allowance.
In a potential reality in which two absolute opposites are no longer consciously experienced, there would be no illusion of a two ended stick. Our reality would be non-dual, and not dual.
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Post by zendancer on Apr 18, 2012 4:04:08 GMT -5
Mmm no I have no idea how I should feel Right so simply stop right there. Don't pass up the gravity of the statement so quickly. You could live many lifetimes waiting for the end of the "but..." statements to come to an end. Esponja: in this post Silence has nailed the crux of the matter. You wrote, "I have no idea how I should feel." Perfect. Stop right there. Can you just stop and feel what its like not to know what you should feel? Can you fully accept how you feel not-knowing how you should feel? This is "what is." Can you stay in this uncomfortable state of not-knowing without trying to run away from it? This is extremely important, because this is the truth of your situation. Silence realized and pointed out that you were trying to escape from the truth as soon as you said "but...." You made an incredibly honest statement. You said, "I have no idea how I should feel." Your mind is frantically jumping from idea to idea; it is like a freight train moving at 100 mph. Get off the train for awhile and just rest in the seemingly uncomfortable truth of not knowing what you should do or what you should feel or what you should be. This is an important first step toward sanity. My story about Gerta was presented to illustrate how people live on a roller coaster of highs and lows caused by thoughts. Getting off the roller coaster requires some insight and some action, but it begins by understanding the nature of the roller coaster and the importance of refusing to ride it. From your post about Unmani, I assume that you must have had an experience similar to Gerta. I don't know Unmani, but I assume that he or she is a teacher and that you felt at peace in his or her presence. Is this correct? I also assume that, like Gerta, the peace went away after you left Unmani's presence. Is this correct? Let me know, and then I'll explain what's happening in situations like that. Gerta's predicament is very common for people on the spiritual path, and it's important to understand what's going on with that. Your goal is to get off the mind's roller coaster and find peace, but in order to do that you have to understand how to stay on the platform and refuse to climb on board. |
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Post by esponja on Apr 18, 2012 7:54:24 GMT -5
Yes thanks, it's just disheartening to feel like you're back to square one. I get that we will experience these emotions, good and bad but my issue is all the stories that I attach with it...feels hellish right now and yet nothing has changed in my circumstances, it just took a very minor incident to set me all off and I feel like crawling into bed for a few days! The frustration is not such a bad thing, though I know it doesn't feel good. Marie has hit a few points of frustration, and I'm not good at hiding my smile, which doesn't always work out well. Hehe. But really, she understands that we don't stop playing the game until we really and truly have had enough of the nonsense. The spiritual seekers who are excited about their progress are actually on a side trip enjoying the scenery. The serious (earnest) ones usually feel like they've failed miserably. In a way, the goal is to become the best failure possible. How much can you lose and how fast? It's a unique kind of game we play. Well I should be well on my way then :-) |
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Post by esponja on Apr 18, 2012 7:56:23 GMT -5
Sorry remembered that from last time. I am looking within Andrew, am not liking any of my minds contents, which is my split mind at best. I've struggled with the same crappy dramas for years and am a little suprised at how this negative has reared it's ugly head with full force. I even picked up one of my old positive thinking books after not touching any all year..this is weird. I know those kinds of books aren't popular on here, but they do have something useful to offer in my opinion. Sometimes when we are feeling a bit low, it can be helpful to deliberately and consciously shift the way we feel. Im not talking about some kind of pretend or plastic happiness, Im talking about deliberately choosing to be grateful and appreciative. You really are doing okay with all this. As I said, Im pretty sure that if you check, you wouldnt want to change so drastically in one day that your family basically wouldnt recognize you. Thats kind of the way it happened for Byron Katie, but she is a bit of an exception. For those of us with families, I really feel that the loving thing to do is to integrate this stuff at a rate that also works for those that we love. Be patient and be open to different techniques, methods and ways of doing things. Im talking here as if Im 'done', but I am still 'in the process too', Im just pretty at peace with the process of becoming (which is really just a process of fumbling through each day as it comes hehe). I dont think there are two sides of the fence, even though it is sometimes helpfully (and sometimes not helpfully) presented as if there are. Thanks Andrew, you're sweet. |
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Post by esponja on Apr 18, 2012 8:02:29 GMT -5
Ok Sponge. I have a very simple question for you. What do you want more than anything else in the whole world? To be rich. Joking. Actually thanks for this question, first I thought To be happy...but even that doesn't feel right or even possible. Apart from the obvious good health and happiness for my family, I'd love to really know the simplicity of 'this' so often talked about on here. Honestly though I found that hard to answer. |
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Post by esponja on Apr 18, 2012 8:09:45 GMT -5
Right so simply stop right there. Don't pass up the gravity of the statement so quickly. You could live many lifetimes waiting for the end of the "but..." statements to come to an end. Esponja: in this post Silence has nailed the crux of the matter. You wrote, "I have no idea how I should feel." Perfect. Stop right there. Can you just stop and feel what its like not to know what you should feel? Can you fully accept how you feel not-knowing how you should feel? This is "what is." Can you stay in this uncomfortable state of not-knowing without trying to run away from it? This is extremely important, because this is the truth of your situation. Silence realized and pointed out that you were trying to escape from the truth as soon as you said "but...." You made an incredibly honest statement. You said, "I have no idea how I should feel." Your mind is frantically jumping from idea to idea; it is like a freight train moving at 100 mph. Get off the train for awhile and just rest in the seemingly uncomfortable truth of not knowing what you should do or what you should feel or what you should be. This is an important first step toward sanity. My story about Gerta was presented to illustrate how people live on a roller coaster of highs and lows caused by thoughts. Getting off the roller coaster requires some insight and some action, but it begins by understanding the nature of the roller coaster and the importance of refusing to ride it. From your post about Unmani, I assume that you must have had an experience similar to Gerta. I don't know Unmani, but I assume that he or she is a teacher and that you felt at peace in his or her presence. Is this correct? I also assume that, like Gerta, the peace went away after you left Unmani's presence. Is this correct? Let me know, and then I'll explain what's happening in situations like that. Gerta's predicament is very common for people on the spiritual path, and it's important to understand what's going on with that. Your goal is to get off the mind's roller coaster and find peace, but in order to do that you have to understand how to stay on the platform and refuse to climb on board. Yes she's a teacher who I believe was taught by Gangagi. When I saw her, she had a way, much like Silence's, of silencing the mind and looking at what was left. Admitting that you knew nothing. I did feel peace yes and didn't feel like stories (good or bad) would ever win me over again. I have been proved wrong, although feeling better today I feel that external circumstances are getting me down. I thought I had seen through all this hence my disheartend feelings. |
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Post by jasonl on Apr 18, 2012 9:00:22 GMT -5
@ esponja: How is it that I think when I want to? Along these lines: minds are conditioned to think, and thoughts are created in motion. As a mind, particularly one in the spiritual game, we are sometimes taught that ultimately, we are not the mind, or even, that there is no mind, which on a certain level, is true. You can’t actually find a mind entity or person thingy driving these thoughts around. -see I can see this, yet it makes No difference. But yet, when we talk about it from the perspective of identification, of already being identified with the mind, to then believe that we are not the mind, or that the person that desires or fears this or that isn’t us in the first place, leads to a split mind easily capable of bypassing unconsciousness. If you do an 8 ball and go bang the neighbors wife, and then not acknowledge that it was your own conditioning, your own desire to do this which led to this behavior, is one way mind bypasses its own unconsciousness and sweeps personal responsibility under the rug, which isn’t to pass moral judgment on anyone for any behavior. On a deeper level, the same can be said for all mechanical and moving thoughts. The mind is a mechanical instrument geared to move in certain ways by certain variables, and it is the unconscious variables which lead to delusion and the tendency for mind to want to move against itself, like thinking that thinking shouldn’t happen. Something like self judgment happens precisely because mind wants it to, and talking about it any other way is how mind turns a blind eye to an already existing split. So, on a forward moving basis, when something like anxiety arises, remind yourself its arising because you want it to, so it can be invited, and experienced like anything else. - I'm reminded of the book Busting Loose here, have you read it? It’s the beliefs that certain experiences shouldn’t happen, meaning certain thoughts and experiences created by the same mind which isn’t you to begin with, which causes suffering in the experience. So we acknowledge it and own it as a separate person, which can certainly fly in the face of many of these non dual pointers. -Confused! On choice: I would say the illusion of choice is something we all experience. You order the pizza when youre hungry because you’ve been conditioned to know how yummy it is, which isnt to say there is a choice regarding the choices we make. What I see going on is everyone doing the best they can with what they got. You live and learn and there's really not much else anyone can do. When the willingness is present to learn from our mistakes, we go beyond right and wrong. I didn't choose how I was conditioned, nobody does, and if i didnt choose how i am conditioned to behave, then clearly i cannot be personally responsible for anything Ive been conditioned to do. Now that's a dangerous statement, but I am simply pointing out that personal responsibility, personal choice, is an illusion, we create it with our imagination through identification with the thinking mind. Realizing that on a certain level doesn't abdicate one from taking personal responsibility for life moving forward, it simply allows the healing process to unfold, the self healing, the self forgiveness, the letting go. In terms of finding inner peace, I like to look at how i myself am creating outer conflict in my own experience, so i can first become conscious of it, then understand it, and then stop doing it. Inner peace is already here until we go covering it up with our imaginations and our stories. Who are we without our stories, and do we have the courage to find out? On a final note you asked if we can control ourselves. Control itself is also an illusion, but to say mind cant exert control on its own thought processes through suppression and mind splitting isn’t what’s being pointed to. You just can’t control how you’re geared up to want to control yourself, but you are more than capable of becoming conscious of how that exertion leads to suffering in your own experience, and then, of course, free to choose to stop doing it. Ok thanks kind of got it...tips now pls? Sell pork bellies, buy gold. |
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Post by silence on Apr 18, 2012 9:37:05 GMT -5
The positive thinking business is premised on the fact that you're supposed to think and feel a certain way. . Its premise is that you dont HAVE to feel (and think) a certain way. Sure, and like psychedelics it's useful in that it can broaden someones perspective. The difficulty arises when "you don't HAVE to feel a certain way" gets translated into "that means I can feel any way I want all the time". Thought is always clawing at the idea of permanence. |
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Post by esponja on Apr 18, 2012 9:50:44 GMT -5
Ok thanks kind of got it...tips now pls? Sell pork bellies, buy gold. Ha ha ha ha ha...couldn't resist right? |
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Post by enigma on Apr 18, 2012 10:05:12 GMT -5
Well, I hear that the spelling part of the brain is ego, so better not listen!  Oh come on now thats not what I said. And I still think stillness's ego was popping up when he kept replying to me. He knows how to spell the two words he misspelled. It was ego grasping going on, I can bet you. I'm a mother foocking authority, pregnant doges. I was just being silly. I'm familiar with the phenomena of getting all flustered and hurried and misspelling a response. It's part of the contraction of going unconscious that also has peeps seeing giraffes, and your ego spotting may very well be one of those giraffes. |
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Post by enigma on Apr 18, 2012 10:15:03 GMT -5
What I've been saying, in dozens of different ways, is that you are not a person. You've already made it clear that you have no interest in that idea. I just explained to you why. I am asking not about me, but about you. I know that I am not a person, but you seem not to realize it yet that you are not a person. And you don't want to learn how to do that. So, you cannot know what is actually true. But you keep on explaining something on this forum as if you knew. That's why I ask : why are you saying all this nonsense which has nothing to do with what actually is true? U now tht yer not a persin? Then what are you? |
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Post by andrew on Apr 18, 2012 10:17:38 GMT -5
I know those kinds of books aren't popular on here, but they do have something useful to offer in my opinion. Sometimes when we are feeling a bit low, it can be helpful to deliberately and consciously shift the way we feel. Im not talking about some kind of pretend or plastic happiness, Im talking about deliberately choosing to be grateful and appreciative. You really are doing okay with all this. As I said, Im pretty sure that if you check, you wouldnt want to change so drastically in one day that your family basically wouldnt recognize you. Thats kind of the way it happened for Byron Katie, but she is a bit of an exception. For those of us with families, I really feel that the loving thing to do is to integrate this stuff at a rate that also works for those that we love. Be patient and be open to different techniques, methods and ways of doing things. Im talking here as if Im 'done', but I am still 'in the process too', Im just pretty at peace with the process of becoming (which is really just a process of fumbling through each day as it comes hehe). I dont think there are two sides of the fence, even though it is sometimes helpfully (and sometimes not helpfully) presented as if there are. Thanks Andrew, you're sweet.  |
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Post by gazpacho on Apr 18, 2012 10:19:35 GMT -5
I am asking not about me, but about you. I know that I am not a person, but you seem not to realize it yet that you are not a person. And you don't want to learn how to do that. So, you cannot know what is actually true. But you keep on explaining something on this forum as if you knew. That's why I ask : why are you saying all this nonsense which has nothing to do with what actually is true? U now tht yer not a persin? Then what are you? I'm a person. ;D |
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Post by andrew on Apr 18, 2012 10:22:08 GMT -5
Its premise is that you dont HAVE to feel (and think) a certain way. Sure, and like psychedelics it's useful in that it can broaden someones perspective. The difficulty arises when "you don't HAVE to feel a certain way" gets translated into "that means I can feel any way I want all the time". Thought is always clawing at the idea of permanence. Yes I pretty much agree and I see what you are saying as applying to both the dual approach (positive feeling etc) and the non-dual approach. In a way, I think both approaches idealize, but if they didnt do that, there wouldnt be much for them to say. |
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