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Post by relinquish on Apr 17, 2012 14:29:58 GMT -5
Yeah, I know what your saying. I know that what you are pointing to doesn't come down to selfishness in the end. But I would say that the motivation for all action does come down to the apparent selfishness of a self that doesn't actualy exist. Those who have realized this almost always experience a change in their personality, but the personality can't just die all together while the body/mind organism is still apparently alive, because a personality is required for any apparent interaction with the world to take place. Again, as I said, this is not actually a bad thing. In fact, it is here where we find that volition does not exist at all. We realize that we were never someone who directed actions, and we still aren't. I'd say the organism itself is as selfish as it gets. It wants to survive and it wants to reproduce. The difficulty is that mans ability to contemplate has resulted in thought structures of morality and a sense of superiority. This selfishness has been condemned and thus a constant struggle has emerged. The struggle of the organism that simply doesn't care about any of your non-dual ideas, morality, or any thought structure. The absence of these thought structures (particularly the foundation of self) frees the organism up to act naturally. The organism doesn't care about feeling happy from helping someone. It cooperates with others to the extent that this helps it survive. It also doesn't care about good and bad and so you may witness someone who is "free" acting quite unusually. Despite the apparent selfishness of the organism, while free of oppressive thought, the organism functions much more harmoniously with its surroundings just as any other being does. The lion may not give a darn about the hyenas needs but it also doesn't consume more than it needs or destructively wipe out entire species because it has projected into the future and is fearful. Hehe. Yeah, that's what I was trynna say!! ;D |
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Post by jasonl on Apr 17, 2012 14:36:56 GMT -5
On the selfishness bit from zen stillness and silence: As a mind, what I notice about myself is that I think when i want to. I think the same can be said for pretty much everyone, except for those who delude themselves into thinking that they dont want to be thinking when they clearly are thinking otherwise. I suppose it can be a hard pill to swallow to think that at times, we actually want to suffer, and the core of the desire for that experience, the experience of suffering, of being separate, deluded, mind identified, is simply a desire to not want to feel a certain way. These thoughts and feelings are happening, I am creating them to experience, and I delusionally believe that I shouldnt be creating them, or better yet, that im not creating them and some other mind is, and of course finally, that i can control a spontaneous aspect of the creative principle while identified as that very same aspect. God's taking a piss off the balcony and the piss is telling the wind which way it wants it to blow. That's where the suffering comes in and the disharmony arises in the human experience, the idea that we can control ourselves, our experiences, our own creation. If a saber tooth tiger walked into the room right now, id be hard pressed to say that i wouldnt drop a terd in my pants. I had a big dinner and one is on deck. But my point is, the desire for life is as natural as it gets, and in the end, I suppose so is the willingness to die, to go away, to be erased from existence. I guess, in a way, every thought anyone has ever had is entirely selfish, entirely driven by the dynamics of being a personally conditioned mind geared to think and act precisely how you want to think and act, and that's all good unless you yourself say otherwise. Now if you'll excuse me hehe... Yes, there is a belief that states that there is no world out there. And that the objective world is really all in our head or rather our minds. Of course that too, is just another thought of the mind. Yea its another thought/belief of the mind but this isn't to say it isn't created, put in place and dynamically experienced, without a purpose. Typically there is an emotional protection variable somewhere within the dynamics of the thought processes which keep the belief in place, which is why I think it can be helpful to become conscious of the desire to avoid certain feelings. If the world is an illusion, then to some extent, we are safe from our own delusional interpretations to the extent that we think that we are, which is to say, not completely. We have no control over how we interpret what unfolds, which isn't to say certain incentives and conditioning dont dictate those interpretations. If the saber tooth tiger came in, I would experience fear because thats what i would be geared up to want to feel. Or who knows, maybe id say fck it, i had a good run and what better way to go then getting mauled gladiator status by a beast. We never really know. What can be known, or understood i suppose, is that on the level of spontaneous creation, thought and feeling, as mind, we are always creating precisely what we want to even when we are splitting ourselves into thinking otherwise. Sometimes, we create beliefs to shield ourselves from feeling a certain way, which likewise leaves the "desire for control" as part of the experience of being a mind identified mind (mind which thinks it can control what it creates), which has the curious charm of sometimes not manifesting in pleasurable ways. |
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Post by arisha on Apr 17, 2012 14:51:00 GMT -5
Yeah, I know what your saying. I know that what you are pointing to doesn't come down to selfishness in the end. But I would say that the motivation for all action does come down to the apparent selfishness of a self that doesn't actualy exist. Those who have realized this almost always experience a change in their personality, but the personality can't just die all together while the body/mind organism is still apparently alive, because a personality is required for any apparent interaction with the world to take place. Again, as I said, this is not actually a bad thing. In fact, it is here where we find that volition does not exist at all. We realize that we were never someone who directed actions, and we still aren't. I'd say the organism itself is as selfish as it gets. It wants to survive and it wants to reproduce. The difficulty is that mans ability to contemplate has resulted in thought structures of morality and a sense of superiority. This selfishness has been condemned and thus a constant struggle has emerged. The struggle of the organism that simply doesn't care about any of your non-dual ideas, morality, or any thought structure. The absence of these thought structures (particularly the foundation of self) frees the organism up to act naturally. The organism doesn't care about feeling happy from helping someone. It cooperates with others to the extent that this helps it survive. It also doesn't care about good and bad and so you may witness someone who is "free" acting quite unusually. Despite the apparent selfishness of the organism, while free of oppressive thought, the organism functions much more harmoniously with its surroundings just as any other being does. The lion may not give a darn about the hyenas needs but it also doesn't consume more than it needs or destructively wipe out entire species because it has projected into the future and is fearful. Absolutely right about the organism. But trying to go away from the subject of 'doing something about it', that is selfishness, on the account that we ultimately can do nothing, because all is already set up and predetermined , is nothing else than promoting this selfishness even more. If so , Oneness is the super-egoic manifesto, and I will never have any interest in it, even be it 200% true. I prefer struggling with my egoic nature, instead of being a robot which is programmed for selfishness. Even if it's true, and cannot be changed, I will. It seems better to be confused and contradict, than to be a programmed robot and to obey this program. It turns out to be more humanistic to keep farther from the idea of Oneness. I feel only coldness and indiferentness in this Oneness (as it actually is this and nothing else). The personality which we will always have to be able to interact with the world will never disappear, doesn't matter how much you talk about inseparateness, - and under this condition to choose contradiction regarding the attempt to change the egoic nature IS MORE HUMANISTIC. Choosing Oneness is good for over lazy people who don't want to make efforts to serve others. |
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Post by relinquish on Apr 17, 2012 15:40:12 GMT -5
I'd say the organism itself is as selfish as it gets. It wants to survive and it wants to reproduce. The difficulty is that mans ability to contemplate has resulted in thought structures of morality and a sense of superiority. This selfishness has been condemned and thus a constant struggle has emerged. The struggle of the organism that simply doesn't care about any of your non-dual ideas, morality, or any thought structure. The absence of these thought structures (particularly the foundation of self) frees the organism up to act naturally. The organism doesn't care about feeling happy from helping someone. It cooperates with others to the extent that this helps it survive. It also doesn't care about good and bad and so you may witness someone who is "free" acting quite unusually. Despite the apparent selfishness of the organism, while free of oppressive thought, the organism functions much more harmoniously with its surroundings just as any other being does. The lion may not give a darn about the hyenas needs but it also doesn't consume more than it needs or destructively wipe out entire species because it has projected into the future and is fearful. Absolutely right about the organism. But trying to go away from the subject of 'doing something about it', that is selfishness, on the account that we ultimately can do nothing, because all is already set up and predetermined , is nothing else than promoting this selfishness even more. If so , Oneness is the super-egoic manifesto, and I will never have any interest in it, even be it 200% true. I prefer struggling with my egoic nature, instead of being a robot which is programmed for selfishness. Even if it's true, and cannot be changed, I will. It seems better to be confused and contradict, than to be a programmed robot and to obey this program. It turns out to be more humanistic to keep farther from the idea of Oneness. I feel only coldness and indiferentness in this Oneness (as it actually is this and nothing else). The personality which we will always have to be able to interact with the world will never disappear, doesn't matter how much you talk about inseparateness, - and under this condition to choose contradiction regarding the attempt to change the egoic nature IS MORE HUMANISTIC. Choosing Oneness is good for over lazy people who don't want to make efforts to serve others. Where did you get this idea that 'all is already set up and predetermind'? |
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Post by arisha on Apr 17, 2012 15:54:16 GMT -5
Here are some of the basic non-duality pointers that are often mentioned on this forum: Psychologically be here now. Attend what is. Leave useless or worrisome fantasy and reflection behind. Do whatever you are doing 100%. Take time to smell the roses. Interact with the world through the senses. Watch thoughts without becoming attached to them. Keep a don't-know mind. Isn't it a super egoistic manifesto? Read the whole OP, read other posts about Oneness on this forum. You won't find a single word which points out AWAY from Ego. Only about OneSelf, Self, Self, Self. What one should do to be able to enjoy the nature... What one should do to be able to smell roses... And this is the way to go away from Ego? Isn't this Oneness a realization of the Super Ego and Selfishness? Not a single word said about thinking of others, serving others. In the idea about God there is a mystery at least, which doesn't allow to say that God is a super-puper egoist number one. In the idea about Oneness you won't find any mystery to shove there this egoic drive. Oneness is so simple... Pure egoism, covered with the fig-leaf of inseparateness. First die, then say that there is no personality anymore to be able to interact with the world. If there IS the personality , - the idea of Oneness cannot stand any criticism. The only way to deal with personality is to do something about it. And here we have all kinds of self improvements which even without changing personality at it's core, still HELP DO something about it. HELP DO something about egoism and selfishness. Oneness plays into the hands of Ego, is some Super Ego. It cannot lead to diminishing the Ego, Self and Selfishness. Because inseparateness is a utopia due to the existence of personality. If you chose the utopia you won't help others, only yourself. |
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Post by lemongrass on Apr 17, 2012 16:53:05 GMT -5
I'd say the organism itself is as selfish as it gets. It wants to survive and it wants to reproduce. The difficulty is that mans ability to contemplate has resulted in thought structures of morality and a sense of superiority. This selfishness has been condemned and thus a constant struggle has emerged. The struggle of the organism that simply doesn't care about any of your non-dual ideas, morality, or any thought structure. The absence of these thought structures (particularly the foundation of self) frees the organism up to act naturally. The organism doesn't care about feeling happy from helping someone. It cooperates with others to the extent that this helps it survive. It also doesn't care about good and bad and so you may witness someone who is "free" acting quite unusually. Despite the apparent selfishness of the organism, while free of oppressive thought, the organism functions much more harmoniously with its surroundings just as any other being does. The lion may not give a darn about the hyenas needs but it also doesn't consume more than it needs or destructively wipe out entire species because it has projected into the future and is fearful. Absolutely right about the organism. But trying to go away from the subject of 'doing something about it', that is selfishness, on the account that we ultimately can do nothing, because all is already set up and predetermined , is nothing else than promoting this selfishness even more. If so , Oneness is the super-egoic manifesto, and I will never have any interest in it, even be it 200% true. I prefer struggling with my egoic nature, instead of being a robot which is programmed for selfishness. Even if it's true, and cannot be changed, I will. It seems better to be confused and contradict, than to be a programmed robot and to obey this program. It turns out to be more humanistic to keep farther from the idea of Oneness. I feel only coldness and indiferentness in this Oneness (as it actually is this and nothing else). The personality which we will always have to be able to interact with the world will never disappear, doesn't matter how much you talk about inseparateness, - and under this condition to choose contradiction regarding the attempt to change the egoic nature IS MORE HUMANISTIC. Choosing Oneness is good for over lazy people who don't want to make efforts to serve others. Arisha I remember being like you in the past. Very self-critical, always trying to do what I thought was the right thing, trying to set an example. I had a hard core and often supressed my emotions and reactions. But even though I surpressed it well, I was always judging others and myself, seeing wrong in things. And though I acted noble, people did not change. They might have acted more noble here and there because they were around me, but it was all just a foolish front, and I never really changed anyone. Now tell me, what do you do that actually serves others? There is nothing wrong with judging, but how does judging serve others? Being critical does not server others. If the guy who invented the refrigerator was a complete asshole I would not give a damn. If you are trying to act noble to prove a point, you will fail, and if you are trying hard to act noble, you will be unhappy. I wouldn't be surprised if you have some supressed desires that you haven't tried to fulfill. If they continue to be there, maybe you should try fulfilling them. That's a much closer step to happiness than being cold and indifferent. |
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Post by enigma on Apr 17, 2012 18:00:26 GMT -5
I figure these enlightend folks here need us strugglers around, or, like ZD said recently, it would be really really boring. At least what I write offers a different flavor of boring, maybe. That whole dynamic is utter nonsense. Don't waste a moment with the enlightened folk vs. strugglers or seekers bit. We're just a group of people having discussions about life. I can't speak for anyone else but I seriously don't know anything you don't. I'd say you know quite a bit less than most, which makes you a good one to listen to. ;D |
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Post by enigma on Apr 17, 2012 18:05:58 GMT -5
Yeah, I know what your saying. I know that what you are pointing to doesn't come down to selfishness in the end. But I would say that the motivation for all action does come down to the apparent selfishness of a self that doesn't actualy exist. Those who have realized this almost always experience a change in their personality, but the personality can't just die all together while the body/mind organism is still apparently alive, because a personality is required for any apparent interaction with the world to take place. Again, as I said, this is not actually a bad thing. In fact, it is here where we find that volition does not exist at all. We realize that we were never someone who directed actions, and we still aren't. I'd say the organism itself is as selfish as it gets. It wants to survive and it wants to reproduce. The difficulty is that mans ability to contemplate has resulted in thought structures of morality and a sense of superiority. This selfishness has been condemned and thus a constant struggle has emerged. The struggle of the organism that simply doesn't care about any of your non-dual ideas, morality, or any thought structure. The absence of these thought structures (particularly the foundation of self) frees the organism up to act naturally. The organism doesn't care about feeling happy from helping someone. It cooperates with others to the extent that this helps it survive. It also doesn't care about good and bad and so you may witness someone who is "free" acting quite unusually. Despite the apparent selfishness of the organism, while free of oppressive thought, the organism functions much more harmoniously with its surroundings just as any other being does. The lion may not give a darn about the hyenas needs but it also doesn't consume more than it needs or destructively wipe out entire species because it has projected into the future and is fearful. Zzzzzacklee. |
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Post by lemongrass on Apr 17, 2012 18:08:30 GMT -5
That whole dynamic is utter nonsense. Don't waste a moment with the enlightened folk vs. strugglers or seekers bit. We're just a group of people having discussions about life. I can't speak for anyone else but I seriously don't know anything you don't. I'd say you know quite a bit less than most, which makes you a good one to listen to. ;D Lol you stupid butthurt child. People know what you are trying to do here. Have fun jacking off with yourself for yourself to yourself. You can't touch me, but I can clearly touch you. |
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Post by silence on Apr 17, 2012 18:11:44 GMT -5
I prefer struggling with my egoic nature, instead of being a robot which is programmed for selfishness. As if it was a choice. Basically all you're saying is that you prefer to struggle over not struggling. |
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Post by enigma on Apr 17, 2012 18:18:13 GMT -5
On the selfishness bit from zen stillness and silence: As a mind, what I notice about myself is that I think when i want to. I think the same can be said for pretty much everyone, except for those who delude themselves into thinking that they dont want to be thinking when they clearly are thinking otherwise. I suppose it can be a hard pill to swallow to think that at times, we actually want to suffer, and the core of the desire for that experience, the experience of suffering, of being separate, deluded, mind identified, is simply a desire to not want to feel a certain way. These thoughts and feelings are happening, I am creating them to experience, and I delusionally believe that I shouldnt be creating them, or better yet, that im not creating them and some other mind is, and of course finally, that i can control a spontaneous aspect of the creative principle while identified as that very same aspect. God's taking a piss off the balcony and the piss is telling the wind which way it wants it to blow. That's where the suffering comes in and the disharmony arises in the human experience, the idea that we can control ourselves, our experiences, our own creation. If a saber tooth tiger walked into the room right now, id be hard pressed to say that i wouldnt drop a terd in my pants. I had a big dinner and one is on deck. But my point is, the desire for life is as natural as it gets, and in the end, I suppose so is the willingness to die, to go away, to be erased from existence. I guess, in a way, every thought anyone has ever had is entirely selfish, entirely driven by the dynamics of being a personally conditioned mind geared to think and act precisely how you want to think and act, and that's all good unless you yourself say otherwise. Now if you'll excuse me hehe... Yes, there is a belief that states that there is no world out there. And that the objective world is really all in our head or rather our minds. Of course that too, is just another thought of the mind. So there IS an objective world out there? |
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Post by enigma on Apr 17, 2012 18:20:01 GMT -5
So absolute truth/oneness is about common elements? Hehe. No. I was just trying an 'eased up' way of pointing for Arisha. I'm leading somewhere with this. Don't worry, E!! Okay, that will help me sleep better tonight. Hehe. |
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Post by therealfake on Apr 17, 2012 18:27:56 GMT -5
Yes, there is a belief that states that there is no world out there. And that the objective world is really all in our head or rather our minds. Of course that too, is just another thought of the mind. So there IS an objective world out there? Only if your in the 99% club... ;D |
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Post by silence on Apr 17, 2012 18:34:58 GMT -5
Here are some of the basic non-duality pointers that are often mentioned on this forum: Psychologically be here now. Attend what is. Leave useless or worrisome fantasy and reflection behind. Do whatever you are doing 100%. Take time to smell the roses. Interact with the world through the senses. Watch thoughts without becoming attached to them. Keep a don't-know mind. Isn't it a super egoistic manifesto? Read the whole OP, read other posts about Oneness on this forum. You won't find a single word which points out AWAY from Ego. Only about OneSelf, Self, Self, Self. What one should do to be able to enjoy the nature... What one should do to be able to smell roses... And this is the way to go away from Ego? Isn't this Oneness a realization of the Super Ego and Selfishness? Not a single word said about thinking of others, serving others. In the idea about God there is a mystery at least, which doesn't allow to say that God is a super-puper egoist number one. In the idea about Oneness you won't find any mystery to shove there this egoic drive. Oneness is so simple... Pure egoism, covered with the fig-leaf of inseparateness. First die, then say that there is no personality anymore to be able to interact with the world. If there IS the personality , - the idea of Oneness cannot stand any criticism. The only way to deal with personality is to do something about it. And here we have all kinds of self improvements which even without changing personality at it's core, still HELP DO something about it. HELP DO something about egoism and selfishness. Oneness plays into the hands of Ego, is some Super Ego. It cannot lead to diminishing the Ego, Self and Selfishness. Because inseparateness is a utopia due to the existence of personality. If you chose the utopia you won't help others, only yourself. You're juggling way too many vague terms at once. In regards to helping others, first you must admit that you don't have a clue how to help yourself. How in the hell are you going to help others? |
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Post by enigma on Apr 17, 2012 18:36:04 GMT -5
I'd say the organism itself is as selfish as it gets. It wants to survive and it wants to reproduce. The difficulty is that mans ability to contemplate has resulted in thought structures of morality and a sense of superiority. This selfishness has been condemned and thus a constant struggle has emerged. The struggle of the organism that simply doesn't care about any of your non-dual ideas, morality, or any thought structure. The absence of these thought structures (particularly the foundation of self) frees the organism up to act naturally. The organism doesn't care about feeling happy from helping someone. It cooperates with others to the extent that this helps it survive. It also doesn't care about good and bad and so you may witness someone who is "free" acting quite unusually. Despite the apparent selfishness of the organism, while free of oppressive thought, the organism functions much more harmoniously with its surroundings just as any other being does. The lion may not give a darn about the hyenas needs but it also doesn't consume more than it needs or destructively wipe out entire species because it has projected into the future and is fearful. Absolutely right about the organism. But trying to go away from the subject of 'doing something about it', that is selfishness, on the account that we ultimately can do nothing, because all is already set up and predetermined , is nothing else than promoting this selfishness even more. If so , Oneness is the super-egoic manifesto, and I will never have any interest in it, even be it 200% true. I prefer struggling with my egoic nature, instead of being a robot which is programmed for selfishness. Even if it's true, and cannot be changed, I will. It seems better to be confused and contradict, than to be a programmed robot and to obey this program. It turns out to be more humanistic to keep farther from the idea of Oneness. I feel only coldness and indiferentness in this Oneness (as it actually is this and nothing else). The personality which we will always have to be able to interact with the world will never disappear, doesn't matter how much you talk about inseparateness, - and under this condition to choose contradiction regarding the attempt to change the egoic nature IS MORE HUMANISTIC. Choosing Oneness is good for over lazy people who don't want to make efforts to serve others. The separate, mind identified person can never be interested in what's actually true. If the person cannot distort the idea of oneness in some self serving way, it will have to be destroyed. At least I understand now what you've been doing. |
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