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Post by enigma on Apr 6, 2012 2:27:12 GMT -5
Lester: I thought you had a low tolerance for that pretentious 'special state that only some know about' BS. Lester: Of course, what Lester found was what we pointy at every day here, but since we haven't formulated it into a method you can add to your ever-growing toolbox, you don't have any use for it. Lester's physical crisis brought the willingness to explore deeply and get clear about the problem, and then to take radical action to stop creating his own suffering. The difficulty is that such dedication to his own freedom cannot be formulated into a method. He did formulate a method. Its called the Sedona Method! It is 4 basic questions. There are also methods for intensifying willingness. I know, Andrew. In fact I read and watched some more and I'm seriously unimpressed with him, though I do believe his story. The point is that he can't put his 'do or die' willingness into an effective method any more than Tolle can put his "I can't live with myself anymore" willingness into an effective practice of being present. They were both willing to let go of thoughts and feelings that they couldn't live with anymore, and it doesn't take any more than that, but it does take that. Well, thank God he has a good Word Lawyer.  |
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Post by andrew on Apr 6, 2012 2:29:58 GMT -5
He did formulate a method. Its called the Sedona Method! It is 4 basic questions. There are also methods for intensifying willingness. I know, Andrew. In fact I read and watched some more and I'm seriously unimpressed with him, though I do believe his story. The point is that he can't put his 'do or die' willingness into an effective method any more than Tolle can put his "I can't live with myself anymore" willingness into an effective practice of being present. They were both willing to let go of thoughts and feelings that they couldn't live with anymore, and it doesn't take any more than that, but it does take that. Well, thank God he has a good Word Lawyer. But he did come up with an effective method. There are thousands that have used the Sedona Method and have got good results from using it. Tolle also offered methods that peeps have got good results from using. |
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Post by enigma on Apr 6, 2012 2:33:46 GMT -5
I know, Andrew. In fact I read and watched some more and I'm seriously unimpressed with him, though I do believe his story. The point is that he can't put his 'do or die' willingness into an effective method any more than Tolle can put his "I can't live with myself anymore" willingness into an effective practice of being present. They were both willing to let go of thoughts and feelings that they couldn't live with anymore, and it doesn't take any more than that, but it does take that. Well, thank God he has a good Word Lawyer. But he did come up with an effective method. There are thousands that have used the Sedona Method and have got good results from using it. Tolle also offered methods that peeps have got good results from using. I don't know what "good results" means. If anybody has actually found freedom from suffering using either of those methods, we can have a look. 'Good results' usually means 'good for ego'. |
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Post by andrew on Apr 6, 2012 2:44:06 GMT -5
But he did come up with an effective method. There are thousands that have used the Sedona Method and have got good results from using it. Tolle also offered methods that peeps have got good results from using. I don't know what "good results" means. If anybody has actually found freedom from suffering using either of those methods, we can have a look. 'Good results' usually means 'good for ego'. First bit....people have used the tools that Lester and Eckhart offer and experience a lot more ease, peace and joy in their lives as a result. They are more 'in the flow'. If these tools weren't of value, I dont think peeps would buy their books and watch the vids and use the tools. Peeps that struggle in life recognize their offerings as a good thing. |
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Post by enigma on Apr 6, 2012 3:22:10 GMT -5
I don't know what "good results" means. If anybody has actually found freedom from suffering using either of those methods, we can have a look. 'Good results' usually means 'good for ego'. First bit....people have used the tools that Lester and Eckhart offer and experience a lot more ease, peace and joy in their lives as a result. They are more 'in the flow'. If these tools weren't of value, I dont think peeps would buy their books and watch the vids and use the tools. Peeps that struggle in life recognize their offerings as a good thing. Peeps are always looking for carrots, and appreciate the flavor. What they aren't interested in at all, and which they will seem to derive no benefit from, and will likely be upset about, is the truth. |
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Post by andrew on Apr 6, 2012 4:40:42 GMT -5
First bit....people have used the tools that Lester and Eckhart offer and experience a lot more ease, peace and joy in their lives as a result. They are more 'in the flow'. If these tools weren't of value, I dont think peeps would buy their books and watch the vids and use the tools. Peeps that struggle in life recognize their offerings as a good thing. Peeps are always looking for carrots, and appreciate the flavor. What they aren't interested in at all, and which they will seem to derive no benefit from, and will likely be upset about, is the truth. That's non-dual grandiose nonsense that will likely appeal to those who are looking for something special and are looking to BE special. Simple peace and ease is what its about, and the Sedona Method is just one tool that helps people to 'have' more of that in their lives, and to live more peaceful and easier lives. I mean, listen to what you said. ....'the truth'! Its so dramatic, like a line from a Hollywood movie. If we are getting upset about something, its not peace and ease, its drama. What you set up are separating 'truth clubs' and its just....drama. |
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jazz
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Post by jazz on Apr 6, 2012 7:14:56 GMT -5
I seem to agree with both of you. I can definetely say for myself that I've become a happier, even freeer (!) human being from using certain methods (the Sedona Method never really appealed to me, though) and if I look at why it is that I'm doing all this, it's a mix of wanting to become more free, happier, more alive but sure I can also sense a want to BE someone special, someone who knows something the others don't know. I take some pride in having arrived here, I like to think that it means that I AM something special, that I AM more intelligent than most peeps. Then the next minute I feel sorry for myself for being trapped here. Now if anything is ego, that is. I have this idea that the truth just means total relaxation and ease (which means being free from all beliefs and self images etc), and while some people need "more of that", not everyone wants the dramatic truth that E. might be talking about, cos ironically that would mean no drama and they have no idea what that would look like. I guess they feel threathened. Tolle's books has made life easier for a lot of people, but likewise it has made it difficult for others, and I guess it's because they're (myself included) all still trapped in the yin and the yang. Ripples have been made in a 360 degree circle but no one really gets out of the circle. To me it seems that Andrew and Enigma have different interests. They're not DOING the same thing. I sometimes wonder what Andrew is actually doing on this forum (not that I wanna get rid of you, man! haha  , because it seeems to be a nondualistic forum where the aim is to see through the whole thing and Andrew isn't really hip with that. But it DOES provide some drama, hehe! Just my 2 cents |
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Post by andrew on Apr 6, 2012 7:40:45 GMT -5
I have sometimes wondered what Im doing here too, but there just isnt any movement to go to any other forum, and I really think this is my last forum having spent the last 5 years on and off them. I appreciate the folk here and the way we discuss, even if I dont always resonate with what is discussed.
What you said about Tolle is what I mean when I talk about the problem of reification. In a way, his work resolves one issue and in the resolving of that issue, another one is created. I spent 2/3 years on Tolle's work, and there was a lot of growth during those years, but the big leaps were made through letting go of his work and the period after that, and believe me, letting go of his work came very very hard. I really really really didnt want to let go of 'the Now'. In a sense 'the Now' was shielding me from full immersion in the world of appearances and the flow of life.... 'the Now', which was so helpful to begin with, became one of the last big barriers. Though seeing that I was reifying took me a while.
Free from self-image is what its all about for me too. Also free from wanting, free from attachment, free from judgement.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2012 7:45:07 GMT -5
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Post by enigma on Apr 6, 2012 11:02:26 GMT -5
Peeps are always looking for carrots, and appreciate the flavor. What they aren't interested in at all, and which they will seem to derive no benefit from, and will likely be upset about, is the truth. That's non-dual grandiose nonsense that will likely appeal to those who are looking for something special and are looking to BE special. Simple peace and ease is what its about, and the Sedona Method is just one tool that helps people to 'have' more of that in their lives, and to live more peaceful and easier lives. I mean, listen to what you said. ....'the truth'! Its so dramatic, like a line from a Hollywood movie. If we are getting upset about something, its not peace and ease, its drama. What you set up are separating 'truth clubs' and its just....drama. The truth is that you never get to be a special person. The truth is that you can play all sorts of games to make yourself feel like a person who has made progress, a person who is more spiritual and sees through all the BS that others talk about, a person who is almost there, but in the end it's the same as making more money or being loved by everybody. It still doesn't satisfy. In fact, I'm beginning to suspect it's just making you mean and condescending. |
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Post by silence on Apr 6, 2012 11:03:56 GMT -5
Have you considered the possibility that if you didn't categorize your feelings in any shape or form that resistance wouldn't seem to already be there? That perhaps you're merely experiencing your ideas about your feelings and not the actual sensations themselves? What I would say is that to notice a feeling (or sensation) IS to categorize it in a very subtle way. I can notice a feeling (or sensation) and then choose NOT to categorize it as a way of handling the negative emotion, and then may well be a good strategy for handling them, but the point is that the categorization has already happened. The resisting is already happening. Thats the thing with negative feelings, is that when noticed, they demand that we do something about them, and thats because a negative feeling comes with a level of physical discomfort and a very natural aversion to that discomfort . Those feelings demand our attention in the same way that our toe demands our attention when we stub it. For example, when frustration arises, people might reach for a beer, some people punch other people, some people may walk out of a situation, some people may quietly observe the feeling without categorizing it, some people may 'forgive', some people may choose to look from a wider perspective....there are hundreds of ways of handling the negative feeling, though spiritual people tend to have different strategies than non-spiritual people. They have more strings to their bow. They dont necessarily reach straight for the beer immediately a negative feeling arises. Ive said this before, but in a way, I think that all that really distinguishes spiritual peeps or enlightened peeps from 'regular' folk, is that spiritual/enlightened folk have more behavioural options available to them. They have less set (conditioned) rules about how to behave in any given situation, so they are able to go with the most intelligent option. Reaching for a beer sometimes might WELL be the most intelligent option, but equally, the most intelligent option might be taking a wider perspective of perfection. I used to talk of the metaphor of an expert kayaker navigating a river. The river we are flowing on has rocks and rapids and waterfalls, and we need plenty of good strategies. There might be a time to paddle hard, to slow down, to avoid, to go straight through, to get out and walk around! Because the 'enlightened' are not bound by their former conditioning, they are able to be flexible and deal with each issue on the river spontaneously and intelligently. The unenlightened are inflexible and rigid and bound by their conditioning, and therefore struggle on the river. Talked a lot there! Forget further categorization with enlightened people and spiritual folks. Most spiritual folks are on the very same power trip only dressed up in a different costume. I actually agree with some of what you've been saying believe it or not  . I could go the rest of my life without hearing about 'What IS' ever again. There's really no reason any of this can't be discussed in straightforward every day terms. All I'm really getting at here Andrew is that your strategies for dealing with emotions you don't like are born out of your need to declare them to be problems. I'm not suggesting anything about enlightened people not stubbing toes or getting angry. I don't even particularly have any issue with anger whatsoever. It rises up from time to time in me and if I don't attach a story to it, it moves on. It's an expression and movement of energy. Reaching for my toolbox to fix it is precisely what keeps it present. I have no interest in either ridding myself of it or allowing it. It just doesn't matter anymore. It has nothing to do with non-dual mumbo jumbo or anything. Quite plainly, there just isn't any interest in being the middle man of thought/feeling and as a result what arises is allowed to bloom in entirety and move right along. |
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Post by silence on Apr 6, 2012 11:09:26 GMT -5
And of course the good feelings...the joy, the bliss, the peace, the ease....they dont demand that we do something 'about'. They dont demand our attention as such because by definition they arise when there is no resisting happening at all.....and actually we only notice them because we also experience negative emotions. The good feelings arise naturally as a result of being fully in the flow. If we were fully in the flow all the time, we wouldnt notice them. They would be a given in our experience, a fact of our reality. The 'good' feelings aren't demanding your attention because mind is much more interested in seeking out its next problem. The biggest and most consuming problem is trying to operate the balance beam which results in constant failure. To which you must constantly add dozens of new strategies to help with and then strategies to help with the frustration of failing to meet your expectations of being in 'the flow'. Forget the flow. The flow is another ideal of mind to keep you tripping over your own shoes until the end of time. |
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Post by andrew on Apr 6, 2012 11:10:08 GMT -5
That's non-dual grandiose nonsense that will likely appeal to those who are looking for something special and are looking to BE special. Simple peace and ease is what its about, and the Sedona Method is just one tool that helps people to 'have' more of that in their lives, and to live more peaceful and easier lives. I mean, listen to what you said. ....'the truth'! Its so dramatic, like a line from a Hollywood movie. If we are getting upset about something, its not peace and ease, its drama. What you set up are separating 'truth clubs' and its just....drama. The truth is that you never get to be a special person. The truth is that you can play all sorts of games to make yourself feel like a person who has made progress, a person who is more spiritual and sees through all the BS that others talk about, a person who is almost there, but in the end it's the same as making more money or being loved by everybody. It still doesn't satisfy. In fact, I'm beginning to suspect it's just making you mean and condescending. I agree we never get to be a special person, thats my point entirely! You continuously separate yourself out from others through reification, and peeps do that when they want to be a special person. Get over it. Its very pretentious, and you've been called out on it consistently by many people in the last 3 years. |
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Post by enigma on Apr 6, 2012 11:11:00 GMT -5
I seem to agree with both of you. I can definetely say for myself that I've become a happier, even freeer If you check, you might see that the only way you know you are happier is if you compare your life to your past. Without that comparison, you find that you feel eggzakly the same, that nothing is really different. Zaklee. |
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Post by andrew on Apr 6, 2012 11:18:14 GMT -5
What I would say is that to notice a feeling (or sensation) IS to categorize it in a very subtle way. I can notice a feeling (or sensation) and then choose NOT to categorize it as a way of handling the negative emotion, and then may well be a good strategy for handling them, but the point is that the categorization has already happened. The resisting is already happening. Thats the thing with negative feelings, is that when noticed, they demand that we do something about them, and thats because a negative feeling comes with a level of physical discomfort and a very natural aversion to that discomfort . Those feelings demand our attention in the same way that our toe demands our attention when we stub it. For example, when frustration arises, people might reach for a beer, some people punch other people, some people may walk out of a situation, some people may quietly observe the feeling without categorizing it, some people may 'forgive', some people may choose to look from a wider perspective....there are hundreds of ways of handling the negative feeling, though spiritual people tend to have different strategies than non-spiritual people. They have more strings to their bow. They dont necessarily reach straight for the beer immediately a negative feeling arises. Ive said this before, but in a way, I think that all that really distinguishes spiritual peeps or enlightened peeps from 'regular' folk, is that spiritual/enlightened folk have more behavioural options available to them. They have less set (conditioned) rules about how to behave in any given situation, so they are able to go with the most intelligent option. Reaching for a beer sometimes might WELL be the most intelligent option, but equally, the most intelligent option might be taking a wider perspective of perfection. I used to talk of the metaphor of an expert kayaker navigating a river. The river we are flowing on has rocks and rapids and waterfalls, and we need plenty of good strategies. There might be a time to paddle hard, to slow down, to avoid, to go straight through, to get out and walk around! Because the 'enlightened' are not bound by their former conditioning, they are able to be flexible and deal with each issue on the river spontaneously and intelligently. The unenlightened are inflexible and rigid and bound by their conditioning, and therefore struggle on the river. Talked a lot there! Forget further categorization with enlightened people and spiritual folks. Most spiritual folks are on the very same power trip only dressed up in a different costume. I actually agree with some of what you've been saying believe it or not . I could go the rest of my life without hearing about 'What IS' ever again. There's really no reason any of this can't be discussed in straightforward every day terms. All I'm really getting at here Andrew is that your strategies for dealing with emotions you don't like are born out of your need to declare them to be problems. I'm not suggesting anything about enlightened people not stubbing toes or getting angry. I don't even particularly have any issue with anger whatsoever. It rises up from time to time in me and if I don't attach a story to it, it moves on. It's an expression and movement of energy. Reaching for my toolbox to fix it is precisely what keeps it present. I have no interest in either ridding myself of it or allowing it. It just doesn't matter anymore. It has nothing to do with non-dual mumbo jumbo or anything. Quite plainly, there just isn't any interest in being the middle man of thought/feeling and as a result what arises is allowed to bloom in entirety and move right along. I cant quite extract from this the specific point you are making.... I am happy to distinguish between spiritual/enlightened peeps and non-spiritual/enlightened peeps, but I am not happy to put one group on one side of a coin, and the other group on another side of a coin. I think all peeps have a reference for the same stuff....peace, love, joy, ease, struggle, conflict, suffering, anger, fear, shame, guilt. All these things are just part of being human. What I am suggesting distinguishes enlightened/spiritual peeps from non-spiritual peeps is the directness with which the 'good' stuff is experienced. Even with this though, its not the case that there is direct experience on one side of a coin and indirect experience on another side of a coin, its a relative thing. Its a shades of grey thing. The point Im simply making about negative feelings is that they are noticed, they demand our attention, and they demand some kind of response to them. This response can take many forms, though spiritual peeps sometimes respond in an 'internal' way, rather than just reaching for the beer. It because we notice negative feelings that we notice positive feelings. If there was no negative feelings then we wouldnt notice the positive ones either, which wouldnt really make them 'positive' any more, they would simply be a fact of our reality/experience. Im not suggesting anything is a 'problem' as such, Im really just talking about what it is to be having a human experience. |
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, because it seeems to be a nondualistic forum where the aim is to see through the whole thing and Andrew isn't really hip with that. But it DOES provide some drama, hehe!
. I could go the rest of my life without hearing about 'What IS' ever again.