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Post by Beingist on Feb 23, 2012 14:42:55 GMT -5
Agreement illustrates suffering? See, this is where it's really best for me to just bow out of the conversation. That's just ... bewildering. No, judging right and wrong is part of suffering. Well, I can't speak for ZD, of course, but I don't see him as really 'judging right and wrong' by his statement. Seems more like he was simply saying that he was resonating with I said. Which doesn't surprise me--I think a number of folks here would resonate with the idea that Nirvana, like the Christian "heaven" or "hell" is really right here, right now. (See the allusion with the 'right' thingy, there?  ) Heck, that's Tolle 101. You should know that. Not sure why you so adamantly refute it. |
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Post by andrew on Feb 23, 2012 14:43:50 GMT -5
No, judging right and wrong is part of suffering. Well, I can't speak for ZD, of course, but I don't see him as really 'judging right and wrong' by his statement. Seems more like he was simply saying that he was resonating with I said. Which doesn't surprise me--I think a number of folks here would resonate with the idea that Nirvana, like the Christian "heaven" or "hell" is really right here, right now. (See the allusion with the 'right' thingy, there? ) Right and wrong, resonance and discord....its all the same thing. Its part of suffering. |
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Post by Beingist on Feb 23, 2012 14:45:24 GMT -5
Well, I can't speak for ZD, of course, but I don't see him as really 'judging right and wrong' by his statement. Seems more like he was simply saying that he was resonating with I said. Which doesn't surprise me--I think a number of folks here would resonate with the idea that Nirvana, like the Christian "heaven" or "hell" is really right here, right now. (See the allusion with the 'right' thingy, there? ) Right and wrong, resonance and discord....its all the same thing. Its part of suffering. Well, maybe if you weren't so discordant, you might suffer less, and so stop thinking the rest of the world is suffering, too? |
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Post by andrew on Feb 23, 2012 14:50:23 GMT -5
Right and wrong, resonance and discord....its all the same thing. Its part of suffering. Well, maybe if you weren't so discordant, you might suffer less, and so stop thinking the rest of the world is suffering, too? I wouldnt say I DO suffer much. Where there is a conscious experience of resonance and discordance, there is also going to be some degree of experience of 'being separate'. Experiencing ourselves as 'separate' is suffering. |
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Post by Beingist on Feb 23, 2012 14:56:56 GMT -5
Well, maybe if you weren't so discordant, you might suffer less, and so stop thinking the rest of the world is suffering, too? I wouldnt say I DO suffer much. Where there is a conscious experience of resonance and discordance, there is also going to be some degree of experience of 'being separate'. Experiencing ourselves as 'separate' is suffering. Well, Andrew, I'm simply sorry to hear that you're so bent on suffering by experiencing yourself as separate, but that's your prerogative, I suppose. |
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Post by andrew on Feb 23, 2012 14:58:46 GMT -5
I wouldnt say I DO suffer much. Where there is a conscious experience of resonance and discordance, there is also going to be some degree of experience of 'being separate'. Experiencing ourselves as 'separate' is suffering. Well, Andrew, I'm simply sorry to hear that you're so bent on suffering by experiencing yourself as separate, but that's your prerogative, I suppose. I dont understand your response in relation to what I said. What I said is that to consciously experience right and wrong, resonance and discord IS to experience a degree of separation. |
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Post by Beingist on Feb 23, 2012 15:07:10 GMT -5
Well, Andrew, I'm simply sorry to hear that you're so bent on suffering by experiencing yourself as separate, but that's your prerogative, I suppose. I dont understand your response in relation to what I said. What I said is that to consciously experience right and wrong, resonance and discord IS to experience a degree of separation. And what I'm saying is that to express that in the way that you do reveals that you are bent on suffering through a belief in separation. All IS one, regardless of what you experience. "Judge not by appearances; judge just judgment." You seem to be basing your belief in separation and suffering on experiences (i.e., appearances) of separation and suffering (like the 'suffering' of battery farm chickens). Which is fine by me. It's the way most people operate, anyway, but that you seem to consciously choose to operate that way is actually kinda painful for me to hear, at least right now. |
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Post by andrew on Feb 23, 2012 15:21:24 GMT -5
I dont understand your response in relation to what I said. What I said is that to consciously experience right and wrong, resonance and discord IS to experience a degree of separation. And what I'm saying is that to express that in the way that you do reveals that you are bent on suffering through a belief in separation. All IS one, regardless of what you experience. "Judge not by appearances; judge just judgment." You seem to be basing your belief in separation and suffering on experiences (i.e., appearances) of separation and suffering (like the 'suffering' of battery farm chickens). Which is fine by me. It's the way most people operate, anyway, but that you seem to consciously choose to operate that way is actually kinda painful for me to hear, at least right now. I agree that all is one regardless of what we experience. But what we experience is some level of separation. If we are consciously experiencing something, then we are experiencing separation. So to consciously experience resonance and discord is to experience separation. Thats just the way it is for humans though. However, as I see it, the volume can be very much turned down on the suffering, and Nirvana is a possibility. |
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Post by silence on Feb 23, 2012 15:22:22 GMT -5
Really? Are you such a being?  Or did you mean you experience the appearance of good and bad, right and wrong, positive and negative, ...? Or do these polarities exists in their own right? It seems that you don't see yourself existing in your own right, your existence seems to rely on all these things you've just mentioned above. And so there's a lot at steak in this discussion. ;D |
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Post by Beingist on Feb 23, 2012 15:25:00 GMT -5
And what I'm saying is that to express that in the way that you do reveals that you are bent on suffering through a belief in separation. All IS one, regardless of what you experience. "Judge not by appearances; judge just judgment." You seem to be basing your belief in separation and suffering on experiences (i.e., appearances) of separation and suffering (like the 'suffering' of battery farm chickens). Which is fine by me. It's the way most people operate, anyway, but that you seem to consciously choose to operate that way is actually kinda painful for me to hear, at least right now. I agree that all is one regardless of what we experience. But what we experience is some level of separation. If we are consciously experiencing something, then we are experiencing separation. So to consciously experience resonance and discord is to experience separation. Thats just the way it is for humans though. However, as I see it, the volume can be very much turned down on the suffering, and Nirvana is a possibility. Works for me.  |
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Post by andrew on Feb 23, 2012 15:30:27 GMT -5
I agree that all is one regardless of what we experience. But what we experience is some level of separation. If we are consciously experiencing something, then we are experiencing separation. So to consciously experience resonance and discord is to experience separation. Thats just the way it is for humans though. However, as I see it, the volume can be very much turned down on the suffering, and Nirvana is a possibility. Works for me. Phew! |
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Post by zendancer on Feb 23, 2012 15:35:06 GMT -5
I dont understand your response in relation to what I said. What I said is that to consciously experience right and wrong, resonance and discord IS to experience a degree of separation. And what I'm saying is that to express that in the way that you do reveals that you are bent on suffering through a belief in separation. All IS one, regardless of what you experience. "Judge not by appearances; judge just judgment." You seem to be basing your belief in separation and suffering on experiences (i.e., appearances) of separation and suffering (like the 'suffering' of battery farm chickens). Which is fine by me. It's the way most people operate, anyway, but that you seem to consciously choose to operate that way is actually kinda painful for me to hear, at least right now. Byron Katie has a funny expression for this. She would say, "Well, it's his turn to suffer." IOW, (1) some people experience physical pain, (2) some people unconsciously suffer because of their thoughts, and (3) some people consciously choose to suffer because of their thoughts. In any of these three situations, its their time to either experience pain or suffer. If someone catches the flu or breaks a bone, that's "what is." There is nothing anyone can do about it other than commisserate, take them to a clinic, or offer whatever comfort is possible. It's their time. Sooner or later it will be "our" time to experience pain (or suffering). Byron Katie would say, "That's just the way of it." Why anyone would consciously choose to suffer, by adding resistance (non-acceptance), or regret (non-acceptance), or ideas of unfairness (non-acceptace) to physical pain, is beyond me. A person may experience physical agony from a broken leg, but any thoughts of "It shouldn't have happened to me," or "Why did it happen to me?" or "If only I had done something different," etc. is like adding a layer of psychological pain to the physical pain. |
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Post by enigma on Feb 23, 2012 15:38:27 GMT -5
You surrendered to your unconscious guilt. ;D Its just a vibrational/calibration thing. To this bodymind, meat is poisonous. It physically rejects meat. If you were more connected, you would probably experience the same thing, but because you only see human adults suffering, you basically alienate yourself from Life. Do you buy free range or battery farm eggs? You see yourself as better than others here. You calibrate higher, align with Arisha's moral focus and point a finger at those who call themselves spiritual but don't align with your 'spiritual values'. It's not a healthy direction for you to go. |
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Post by Beingist on Feb 23, 2012 15:45:09 GMT -5
And what I'm saying is that to express that in the way that you do reveals that you are bent on suffering through a belief in separation. All IS one, regardless of what you experience. "Judge not by appearances; judge just judgment." You seem to be basing your belief in separation and suffering on experiences (i.e., appearances) of separation and suffering (like the 'suffering' of battery farm chickens). Which is fine by me. It's the way most people operate, anyway, but that you seem to consciously choose to operate that way is actually kinda painful for me to hear, at least right now. Byron Katie has a funny expression for this. She would say, "Well, it's his turn to suffer." IOW, (1) some people experience physical pain, (2) some people unconsciously suffer because of their thoughts, and (3) some people consciously choose to suffer because of their thoughts. In any of these three situations, its their time to either experience pain or suffer. If someone catches the flu or breaks a bone, that's "what is." There is nothing anyone can do about it other than commisserate, take them to a clinic, or offer whatever comfort is possible. It's their time. Sooner or later it will be "our" time to experience pain (or suffering). Byron Katie would say, "That's just the way of it." Why anyone would consciously choose to suffer, by adding resistance (non-acceptance), or regret (non-acceptance), or ideas of unfairness (non-acceptace) to physical pain, is beyond me. A person may experience physical agony from a broken leg, but any thoughts of "It shouldn't have happened to me," or "Why did it happen to me?" or "If only I had done something different," etc. is like adding a layer of psychological pain to the physical pain. Yup. Polycoating big time with this one. ;D |
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Post by enigma on Feb 23, 2012 15:47:33 GMT -5
It's a very common teaching. Tons of peeps have said it. I think you know that. No, I didn't. Why so much flak, then, especially about it being a tautology, and all? But, nevermind. It doesn't really matter, anyway. I'll just stay glad, for now, that someone else said it, too. Because of the way you were using it. You derived some conclusions from a couple of precepts or whatever they were. I've forgotten how it goes now, but I saw it as erroneous. |
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