|
|
Post by silence on Feb 4, 2012 13:57:23 GMT -5
...In answer to angela........ The timeless nature of realization doesn't have anything to do with quantum physics. Time, and therefore movement and progression, are illusions formed in mind, and the realization of oneness is prior to mind and it's temporal and spatial illusions. Realization is timeless because it's not conceptual mind that realizes. I think everybody has had the 'experience' of realizing something timelessly, as in the classic 'AHA!' moment of the scientist, but the noticing of the timeless nature of this realization also has to be noticed timelessly, since there is not a linear 'realization experience' that mind can recall. What is seen in the realization is seen whole and complete in the moment of seeing, and there is no concept about it until mind forms one, but the linear concept is not the realization, only a conceptual reflection of it. When a teacher wants to talk about a realization, he must 'look again now', and conceptualize what is seen timelessly, using mind and it's concepts. The teacher calls it a realization because it is not a time based reflection/conceptualization. He might say there is only the present moment because he realizes the illusory nature of linear time and how it is formed in mind. It's clear that this realization cannot be at the other end of a progression in time, and is therefore available here and now only. Any seeming progression is only a conceptual idea formed in mind, and no actual movement toward or away from this truth is possible. This is why some teachers will say that their seeking was irrelevant and had nothing to do with the realization.So he might say there is no path that leads to truth as one never left it and can't get closer to it. Imagining that something has to be done in order to arrive at truth then becomes an obstacle to this timeless realization. Attention is not turned toward what is so, now, because it is believed that a few more lifetimes of horse stances are required. It doesn't mean that nothing can be done so much as the doing is not the meaningful progression that it appears to be. It also doesn't mean that doing is not necessary in order to exhaust the doing or that an exploration of illusion is not required in order to release the attachment to, and focus on, these illusions. There is work to be done, and the work may increase the potential of realization, but it cannot be said that one can get closer to truth, as one IS the truth one seeks, and it cannot be said that the work is required in order for realization to occur as it is such ideas of progress that actually prevent the turning toward this realization.
It cannot be said that any method, path or practice leads to realization, though it can be said that the appropriate path leads to the end of the seeking, which is the goal of the seeking. No seeking, as such, results in finding, only in the futility of the seeking. In this futility, attention is released from the seeking, and naturally turns toward what is always the case right now, which is the realization one was seeking. It was never hidden but only not attended to because of the belief that mind needs to do something, and therein lies the importance of pointing out that nothing needs to be done. It's not a prescription for doing nothing, but rather a pointer toward the fact that what is sought is already here. IOW, being "up sh*t creek without a paddle" is where you actually need to be. "Helpless and hopeless" is eggzakly what you should feel . The nonsense enigma posts just cancels out the good. Here's the whole thing in a nutshell. Ordinarily, we function through ego/cultural self. Even though there is a part of us that is connected with the Whole, we haven't realized, are not living through that Wholeness. Now, anybody content to live what enigma is talking about, have at it, happy trails. NBisH talks about Tony Parsons entering the state, and then it sometime later disappearing....meaning, he goes back to living through ego. He then searches and wishes to bring back the state. That's a real seeker...not giving up...not giving up until one's last breath....searching anywhere and everywhere to find out what that was, how to get back there...but it seems he gave up, and then accepted living through ego and remembering what it was like. You know what it's like to live through ego, the joys the tears, all the crap of life getting dumped on you. enigma seems to be saying (and many nondual teachers...writers and all)... that since all is One, it doesn't matter if we are stuck in ego, because ego is equal to everything else in the Wholeness, the Oneness. I'm saying that's crap. I'm saying that through genuine spiritual practices we can loosen the hold of ego-functioning, and find and live through the part of us that IS connected with the Wholeness. I'm saying never give up until you are actually living through that state..... Now, down the road, ego may or may not be simultaneously present. But then ego is not a problem, ego is no longer the center of gravity of your existence, the Wholeness is. Ego is then like a fly buzzing around you on a summer day. And, eventually, ego becomes like a nightmare you have awakened from. I just see people making progress......and then enigma posting contrary to their progress...and then them saying...on yea...you're right enigma, what was I thinking..... It's actually degrading. I'm just trying to be a warning buoy in the channel.......enigma...shallow water ahead...... Whether anybody listens, or not, is not my concern.........I can't do much more, but I can do that...... sdp Those that feel compelled to do practices will do so. Those that don't, won't. Those that somehow take the advice to not do practices will inevitably do something while convincing themselves they are doing nothing. All rivers flow into the ocean of futility. Go stand on your head for 2 weeks. Go meditate in the woods. Sit on your couch and tell yourself to deliberately do nothing. It doesn't matter. What is obvious for you to do, you will do. The mind can seem to obscure the truth but it can never truly do so. There may seem to be a very real process going on whereas the mind is loosening its grip. However, the obvious never becomes un-obvious. It can be seen right this moment if you wanted to see it more than the struggle, projection and grand stories you hold close. |
|
|
|
Post by therealfake on Feb 4, 2012 13:58:35 GMT -5
the true self abides in non-positionality . . I think it means that it can't be located. To me anyway...  |
|
|
|
Post by silence on Feb 4, 2012 14:07:04 GMT -5
also, sdp, you said this: This is a linear progression, a path in time.......that leads to the timeless state my experience is that all belief in that progression is another subtle trick of the mind to avoid THIS. believing in linear progression helps with creating and maintaining a to-do project, keeping a seeker engaged and doing all sorts of important tasks, complete with water marks to gauge progress and such. now, in my experience exhaustion was vital, but it was really only a seeing clearly what was going on with my stuck belief in someday arriving somewhere else other than this..... then there was utterly giving up all hope and belief in the "there our there" or the palace of enlightenment i could get to eventually...... so, from one perspective it looked like angela gave up, in an event that had duration in time. but all that really happened was that THIS that was always here got to shine unobstructed by my constant, compulsive and obsessive desire to argue with it and get away in ways that looked particularly spiritual. THIS has always been here. it is not a state and you can't get to where you already are by avoiding noticing this fact. beliefs in "getting there" are so subtle they're hard to even see clearly sometimes. Yes, THIS has always been here. But all I'm saying is not to settle for ego-functioning because of nondual-gibberish-speak. You actually can enter into the Wholeness, and then, all the pain and sorrow and the crap of life might still be present, IOW, ego-stuff, but something else is Present also. This something else is better than having a $million in the bank, better than a $Billion....... If you're there, all well and good. But I tend to believe something is wrong when I see error being taught. All I'm saying is there is always "further". The unknown always exists, if you think it doesn't.......well........I sorry for you........ I just hate to see anybody settle for.....less than is possible. But if they do, it can't really be helped. We have an internal compass that keeps us directed. enigma, generically, is like a giant magnet that throws one off course........ sdp One doesn't settle for ego functioning. One duck tapes, wraps chains and builds a house around it. Protecting it with all their might. There's no hike up the biggest mountain in the universe to get past ego. There's just letting go of it. No different than you would let go of some other obsession you had that you noticed was insane. |
|
|
|
Post by therealfake on Feb 4, 2012 14:40:36 GMT -5
The things that we do are not chosen because we have a preference for doing them, but rather that they affirm and assure our imagined "I". There really isn't any thoughts or feelings that aren't motivated by this self preservation mechanism of the imagined "I" (mind). Unconsciously this controlling influence is the idea of myself and this imagined "I" desires, fights, compares, and judges incessantly. It wants to be numero uno, wants recognition, admiration and respect. This imagined "I" is that which is unknown to me, because I believe I am 'that' and consequently that is how I will see the world. It's the subtle-ness of this which is not actually seen, until a conscious looking of the attention is enacted. And when one looks from this present moment of conscious awareness, it becomes obvious that we are not this imagined "I". It is this imagined "I" which needs to become known, it is what Jesus's parable to "Know Thyself" meant. The work to see this imagined "I" , paraphrasing Enigma, is already here, no one has to go looking for it. If there are practices or methods to be used, shouldn't they be directed at knowing this imagined "I", the "I" that doesn't want to be known? IMO |
|
|
|
Post by nobodyishome on Feb 4, 2012 14:46:48 GMT -5
Those that feel compelled to do practices will do so. Those that don't, won't. Those that somehow take the advice to not do practices will inevitably do something while convincing themselves they are doing nothing. All rivers flow into the ocean of futility. Go stand on your head for 2 weeks. Go meditate in the woods. Sit on your couch and tell yourself to deliberately do nothing. It doesn't matter. What is obvious for you to do, you will do. The mind can seem to obscure the truth but it can never truly do so. There may seem to be a very real process going on whereas the mind is loosening its grip. However, the obvious never becomes un-obvious. It can be seen right this moment if you wanted to see it more than the struggle, projection and grand stories you hold close.
Thanks
NBisH |
|
|
|
Post by stardustpilgrim on Feb 4, 2012 17:11:59 GMT -5
enigma, I'll take out the threat of suicide. The only purpose of that was to crank up the intensity and give a time limit. Now want to give it a try? Gnaw, you're not actually hearing anything I'm saying, and the idea that there's a part of ourselves that's connected to the whole and the true self stands on the Earth, etc, tells me we don't have any common ground on which to base a discussion.
Let's take Suzy who walks in off the street, a new seeker, hasn't read one thing about nondualism or Zen or Sufism or anything, just appears here on spiritual teachers, arranges to meet you in person. She just knows life sucks and in all this, there has to be something better........ What does enigma tell her?
Go ahead, tell her, let's hear it. (I tell her, for a first conversation, what's written above.......and it's the truth).
I want to hear what you tell her enigma. I want to hear how you get her to a second conversation (that is, unless you think you can get her enlightened in one conversation).
sdp |
|
|
|
Post by stardustpilgrim on Feb 4, 2012 17:14:38 GMT -5
...In answer to angela........ The nonsense enigma posts just cancels out the good. Here's the whole thing in a nutshell. Ordinarily, we function through ego/cultural self. Even though there is a part of us that is connected with the Whole, we haven't realized, are not living through that Wholeness. Now, anybody content to live what enigma is talking about, have at it, happy trails. NBisH talks about Tony Parsons entering the state, and then it sometime later disappearing....meaning, he goes back to living through ego. He then searches and wishes to bring back the state. That's a real seeker...not giving up...not giving up until one's last breath....searching anywhere and everywhere to find out what that was, how to get back there...but it seems he gave up, and then accepted living through ego and remembering what it was like. You know what it's like to live through ego, the joys the tears, all the crap of life getting dumped on you. enigma seems to be saying (and many nondual teachers...writers and all)... that since all is One, it doesn't matter if we are stuck in ego, because ego is equal to everything else in the Wholeness, the Oneness. I'm saying that's crap. I'm saying that through genuine spiritual practices we can loosen the hold of ego-functioning, and find and live through the part of us that IS connected with the Wholeness. I'm saying never give up until you are actually living through that state..... Now, down the road, ego may or may not be simultaneously present. But then ego is not a problem, ego is no longer the center of gravity of your existence, the Wholeness is. Ego is then like a fly buzzing around you on a summer day. And, eventually, ego becomes like a nightmare you have awakened from. I just see people making progress......and then enigma posting contrary to their progress...and then them saying...on yea...you're right enigma, what was I thinking..... It's actually degrading. I'm just trying to be a warning buoy in the channel.......enigma...shallow water ahead...... Whether anybody listens, or not, is not my concern.........I can't do much more, but I can do that...... sdp Those that feel compelled to do practices will do so. Those that don't, won't. Those that somehow take the advice to not do practices will inevitably do something while convincing themselves they are doing nothing. All rivers flow into the ocean of futility. Go stand on your head for 2 weeks. Go meditate in the woods. Sit on your couch and tell yourself to deliberately do nothing. It doesn't matter. What is obvious for you to do, you will do. The mind can seem to obscure the truth but it can never truly do so. There may seem to be a very real process going on whereas the mind is loosening its grip. However, the obvious never becomes un-obvious. It can be seen right this moment if you wanted to see it more than the struggle, projection and grand stories you hold close. IOW, your saying you're content to function through ego for the rest of your life? sdp |
|
|
|
Post by stardustpilgrim on Feb 4, 2012 17:19:33 GMT -5
Yes, THIS has always been here. But all I'm saying is not to settle for ego-functioning because of nondual-gibberish-speak. You actually can enter into the Wholeness, and then, all the pain and sorrow and the crap of life might still be present, IOW, ego-stuff, but something else is Present also. This something else is better than having a $million in the bank, better than a $Billion....... If you're there, all well and good. But I tend to believe something is wrong when I see error being taught. All I'm saying is there is always "further". The unknown always exists, if you think it doesn't.......well........I sorry for you........ I just hate to see anybody settle for.....less than is possible. But if they do, it can't really be helped. We have an internal compass that keeps us directed. enigma, generically, is like a giant magnet that throws one off course........ sdp One doesn't settle for ego functioning. One duck tapes, wraps chains and builds a house around it. Protecting it with all their might. Doesn't the first sentence contradict the second two? |
|
|
|
Post by therealfake on Feb 4, 2012 17:31:42 GMT -5
Those that feel compelled to do practices will do so. Those that don't, won't. Those that somehow take the advice to not do practices will inevitably do something while convincing themselves they are doing nothing. All rivers flow into the ocean of futility. Go stand on your head for 2 weeks. Go meditate in the woods. Sit on your couch and tell yourself to deliberately do nothing. It doesn't matter. What is obvious for you to do, you will do. The mind can seem to obscure the truth but it can never truly do so. There may seem to be a very real process going on whereas the mind is loosening its grip. However, the obvious never becomes un-obvious. It can be seen right this moment if you wanted to see it more than the struggle, projection and grand stories you hold close. IOW, your saying you're content to function through ego for the rest of your life? sdp I see it as seeing that we are split and we are continually abiding, and oscillating between the unconsciousness state and presence. |
|
|
|
Post by sharon on Feb 4, 2012 18:36:47 GMT -5
IOW, your saying you're content to function through ego for the rest of your life? sdp I see it as seeing that we are split and we are continually abiding, and oscillating between the unconsciousness state and presence. Stay real man ... What we are, is never not abiding, it has no choice, It is abidance, though it also has the capacity as the illusion, as the appearance, as a thought of individuality ... to dream, to be unconscious, to be, not real or not abiding. Wait for the laughter ...  |
|
|
|
Post by stardustpilgrim on Feb 4, 2012 18:40:04 GMT -5
Response to #42 where enigma said, OK, go ahead..... Gnaw, you're not actually hearing anything I'm saying, and the idea that there's a part of ourselves that's connected to the whole and the true self stands on the Earth, etc, tells me we don't have any common ground on which to base a discussion. If I stack up ten quotes from ten different well-established nonduality teachers that prove you are wrong, here, that show you don't know what you're talking about, where are you going to run and hide? sdp The Self - Real and Pseudo by Professor R. Balasubramanian from the book Forever is in the Now, The Timeless Message of Sri Ramana Maharshi, East West Books (Madras), 1997 Why self-enquiry? The dichotomy between the good and the pleasant arises from that between the Self (Atman) and the not-self (anatman). One who knows the Self and realizes it gets liberated, whereas one who pursues the not-self, which stands for everything other than the Self, lives in a state of bondage. Since the choice is between liberation and bondage, it follows that the discriminative person will be desirous of knowing the Self whose knowledge helps to overcome the sorrow of bondage. pgs 7, 8 .................... If I have to draw you a diagram, I will. sdp |
|
|
|
Post by enigma on Feb 4, 2012 20:24:39 GMT -5
Response to #42 where enigma said, OK, go ahead..... If I stack up ten quotes from ten different well-established nonduality teachers that prove you are wrong, here, that show you don't know what you're talking about, where are you going to run and hide? sdp The Self - Real and Pseudo by Professor R. Balasubramanian from the book Forever is in the Now, The Timeless Message of Sri Ramana Maharshi, East West Books (Madras), 1997 Why self-enquiry? The dichotomy between the good and the pleasant arises from that between the Self (Atman) and the not-self (anatman). One who knows the Self and realizes it gets liberated, whereas one who pursues the not-self, which stands for everything other than the Self, lives in a state of bondage. Since the choice is between liberation and bondage, it follows that the discriminative person will be desirous of knowing the Self whose knowledge helps to overcome the sorrow of bondage. pgs 7, 8 .................... If I have to draw you a diagram, I will. sdp I can only assume you think you heard me say something that contradicts that, but since I dunno what you heard, I can't respond to it. |
|
|
|
Post by exactamente on Feb 4, 2012 20:44:57 GMT -5
Response to #42 where enigma said, OK, go ahead..... The Self - Real and Pseudo by Professor R. Balasubramanian from the book Forever is in the Now, The Timeless Message of Sri Ramana Maharshi, East West Books (Madras), 1997 Why self-enquiry? The dichotomy between the good and the pleasant arises from that between the Self (Atman) and the not-self (anatman). One who knows the Self and realizes it gets liberated, whereas one who pursues the not-self, which stands for everything other than the Self, lives in a state of bondage. Since the choice is between liberation and bondage, it follows that the discriminative person will be desirous of knowing the Self whose knowledge helps to overcome the sorrow of bondage. pgs 7, 8 .................... If I have to draw you a diagram, I will. sdp I can only assume you think you heard me say something that contradicts that, but since I dunno what you heard, I can't respond to it. I think the knot in the brain of sdp comes from talking about truth instead of just truthin'...  |
|
|
|
Post by therealfake on Feb 4, 2012 20:59:59 GMT -5
Knowing the Self (the unknowable) is not possible, it's the knower, not the imagined self that believes it can know the unknowable.
|
|
|
|
Post by stardustpilgrim on Feb 4, 2012 21:22:07 GMT -5
This is also a response to your last post......#56. I guess I do have to draw arrows....... Briefly, here's my take. The part of ourselves which is connected to the Whole, is the sun. True self stands on the earth. What you call illusion is a cloudy sky, otherwise known as ego/personality/cultural self. So, there are obstructions to standing in the bright light of the sun. What you're saying is that there is no doing-time progression to get to the cloudless sky, anybody and everybody just has to wait for the sun to burn off the clouds.
What Ramana and Annamalai Swami call Self is what I call, above, the part of us connected to the Whole, by analogy, the sun. What you call illusion is what Ramana and Swami call ignorance, obscured or fragmented mind, identifying with the body or the minds activities, what I have called by analogy, clouds, otherwise known as ego/personality/cultural self, obstructions.
What I call doing-time progression, AKA spiritual practice, the path, the Way, Annamalai Swami calls continuous effort, something you can choose moment to moment, Self-awareness, keeping oil in the lamp, removing ignorance, Bhagavan's path, giving up all thoughts, dissolving the mind in the Self, by constant practice.
What I've posted since November, 2011 is in alignment with what Annamalai Swami says, and contrary with what you have written below. . Annamalai Swami lived with Bhagavan Sri Ramana Maharshi for ten years beginning in 1928. The following is from Final Talks, edited by David Godman, 2000 Self-inquiry must be done continuously. It doesn't work if you regard it as a part-time activity. ....Your determination to succeed must be strong and firm, and it should manifest as continuous, not part-time effort. ... Ignorance is ignorance of the Self, and to remove it Self-awareness is required. .........This is not going to happen in a moment because lifetimes of wrong and ignorant thinking have made it impossible for most of us to focus intently and regularly on the Self within. The Self shines all the time. If you can't see it because your mind has obscured it or fragmented it, you have to control your vision. You have to stop observing with the eye of the mind, because that eye can only see what the mind projects in front of it. pgs 30-32, 37 Forgetfulness of the Self happens because of non-inquiry. So I say, Remove the forgetfulness through inquiry. Forgetfulness or non-forgetfulness is not a part of your destiny. It is something you can choose from moment to moment. That is what Bhagavan said. He said that you have the freedom either to identify with the body and its activities, and in so doing forget the Self, or you can identify with the Self and have the understanding that the body is performing its predestined activities, animated and sustained by the power of the Self. If you have an oil lamp and forget to put oil in it, the light goes out. It was your forgetfulness and your lack of vigilance that caused the light to go out. Your thoughts were elsewhere. They were not tending to the lamp. In every moment you have only one real choice: to be aware of the Self or to identify with the body or the mind. If you choose the latter course, don't blame God or God's will or predestination. God did not make you forget the Self. You yourself are making that choice every second of your life. The Self is always present. Nothing obstructs your awareness of it except your self-inflicted ignorance. Our efforts, our sadhana, are directed towards removing this ignorance. If this ignorance is removed, the real Self is revealed. This revelation is not part of destiny. Only the outer bodily activites are predestined. Question: So my inner life is my own responsibility (?) I cannot blame Bhagavan if I am not remembering myself (?) Annamalai Swami: The ego is the 'I am body idea'. Remove this idea and you shine as the Self. Question: I have to assume responsibility for everything that goes on in me (?)
Annamalai Swami: Correct. There can be no mistakes in following Bhagavan's path because Bhagavan is like an eternal light that is always burning... ........Your ultimate need is to get established in the changeless peace of the Self. For this you have to give up all thoughts. If you are in the real state, there will be no wants, no desire to push on to some other state. In realization there will be no desire for anything else, and no doubt about whether anything is needed. This final state is just peace. There are no desires and doubts there. ............. The mind only gets dissolved in the Self by constant practice. ...Guru shows us the way home by guiding us in the right direction, but we still have to do the work ourselves. ...This currect, this 'I am' consciousness, is present within all of us. It is our nature, and as such it is common to all. But only a few souls are mature enough or ripe enough to be aware of it. .....You will not reach the Self while thoughts are dwelling on anything that is connected with the body or the mind. unquote, pgs 59-69 |
|
