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Post by Beingist on Feb 3, 2012 16:16:42 GMT -5
Oh, the difficulties of explaining such paradoxical stuff. I don't see it as paradox so much as misconception and assumption. Well, you can see it any way you want, I suppose, but that "work is required in order to notice that work isn't required in the same way that suffering is necessary in order to realize that suffering isn't necessary" seems highly paradoxical, to me. |
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Post by enigma on Feb 3, 2012 16:37:58 GMT -5
I don't see it as paradox so much as misconception and assumption. Well, you can see it any way you want, I suppose, but that "work is required in order to notice that work isn't required in the same way that suffering is necessary in order to realize that suffering isn't necessary" seems highly paradoxical, to me. I'd say it's ironic, but no more paradoxical than having to try to control thoughts in order to realize you can't control thoughts. It's just experience leading to understanding rather than an actual logical contradiction. I campaign against paradox here a lot because I see it as a mental trap that results in confusion rather than the ineffable understanding that it often appears to be. |
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Post by Beingist on Feb 3, 2012 16:43:45 GMT -5
Well, you can see it any way you want, I suppose, but that "work is required in order to notice that work isn't required in the same way that suffering is necessary in order to realize that suffering isn't necessary" seems highly paradoxical, to me. I'd say it's ironic, but no more paradoxical than having to try to control thoughts in order to realize you can't control thoughts. It's just experience leading to understanding rather than an actual logical contradiction. I campaign against paradox here a lot because I see it as a mental trap that results in confusion rather than the ineffable understanding that it often appears to be. Okay, ironic works for me.  |
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Post by enigma on Feb 3, 2012 17:33:19 GMT -5
I'd say it's ironic, but no more paradoxical than having to try to control thoughts in order to realize you can't control thoughts. It's just experience leading to understanding rather than an actual logical contradiction. I campaign against paradox here a lot because I see it as a mental trap that results in confusion rather than the ineffable understanding that it often appears to be. Okay, ironic works for me. Groovycool, man.  |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Feb 4, 2012 3:01:04 GMT -5
Subtitle: What's true for some is not true for all. I keep dipping into the nondual pool of writers/teachers, have done so for some twenty-odd years, forty if you count Zen and Taoism and such. I'll get to my point, and then back up some... I have invariably been turned off by the teaching that we're all already there so there is nothing we can do to get there, and in fact, trying to get there is the chief obstruction to realizing we're already there....... This is the biggest load of crap I've ever heard, yet true, in part. It's true that there is an aspect of our being which emerges from the whole, is connected with the whole. But it is also true that for most of us, >we< are not >it<. But also, some have had the recognition of unity with the whole. Now, some have had the recognition via following a traditional path, a trail left behind by others, and in turn, leave a trail (although sometimes it's just a trail of bread-crumbs). Some, the nondual teachers, have come to recognize the oneness, by way sort of like a quantum leap that does not traverse either time or space, but appears seemingly without cause (this quantum nature of reality is scientifically well established, has been demonstrated to be accurate more than any other scientific theory in history). Not knowing how they came to be in the state they are, they claim that there is no way to get there. This is where error creeps in, and thus the paradox. Now, it's not a problem for those who are members of the "club", but it is a problem for the student, because there is a way, there is a path, there is a trail. It causes problems for the student, as they are left up s**t creek without a paddle. On the (Nondual) Enlightened side, there is looking backward and seeing no trail, true. On the un-Enlightened side there is looking forward, hearing that there is no trail, and feeling helpless. This is not-true, there is a path, mostly centered around working with attention and awareness, interior practices. So, the majority of my problem with nondual teaching is this paradox, the confusion it causes for students. And when I hear anyone say there is no way and nothing can be done, I know that they only have partial truth. The truth is that ego can do nothing, but this doesn't mean that nothing can be done. stardustpilgrim
What don't you understand about "sort of like"?
Time, and therefore movement and progression, are illusions formed in mind,
So our ordinary life is but an illusion formed in the mind?
and the realization of oneness is prior to mind and it's temporal and spatial illusions. Realization is timeless because it's not conceptual mind that realizes.
Accurate.
I think everybody has had the 'experience' of realizing something timelessly, as in the classic 'AHA!' moment of the scientist, but the noticing of the timeless nature of this realization also has to be noticed timelessly,
Accurate.
since there is not a linear 'realization experience' that mind can recall. What is seen in the realization is seen whole and complete in the moment of seeing,
Accurate.
and there is no concept about it until mind forms one, but the linear concept is not the realization, only a conceptual reflection of it. When a teacher wants to talk about a realization, he must 'look again now', and conceptualize what is seen timelessly, using mind and it's concepts.
This is why I like Zen, there isn't much conceptualization, just pointing to.
The teacher calls it a realization because it is not a time based reflection/conceptualization. He might say there is only the present moment
Accurate.
because he realizes the illusory nature of linear time and how it is formed in mind.
Again, time is illusion?
It's clear that this realization cannot be at the other end of a progression in time,
This is my point of the student looking forward, the teacher looking backward comment.
and is therefore available here and now only.
Accurate.
Any seeming progression is only a conceptual idea formed in mind, and no actual movement toward or away from this truth is possible. This is why some teachers will say that their seeking was irrelevant and had nothing to do with the realization.
This is where error creeps in. I'll comment further at the end.
So he might say there is no path that leads to truth as one never left it and can't get closer to it. Imagining that something has to be done in order to arrive at truth then becomes an obstacle to this timeless realization.
I consider this complete and utter nondual-speak gibberish (caundsg).
Attention is not turned toward what is so, now, because it is believed that a few more lifetimes of horse stances are required.
A few more lifetimes is required because attention is not turned toward what is so now.
It doesn't mean that nothing can be done so much as the doing is not the meaningful progression that it appears to be.
Again, the paradox of looking forward and looking backward.
It also doesn't mean that doing is not necessary in order to exhaust the doing or that an exploration of illusion is not required in order to release the attachment to, and focus on, these illusions.
I understand what you're saying, I just wouldn't use that language.
There is work to be done, and the work may increase the
potential of realization,
Thanks for that......clarification......
but it cannot be said that one can get closer to truth, as one IS the truth one seeks,
Looking forward and looking backward paradox.
and it cannot be said that the work is required in order for realization to occur as it is such ideas of progress that actually prevent the turning toward this realization.
caundsg.
It cannot be said that any method, path or practice leads to realization, though it can be said that the appropriate path leads to the end of the seeking, which is the goal of the seeking. No seeking, as such, results in finding, only in the futility of the seeking. In this futility,
caundsg.
attention is released from the seeking, and naturally turns toward what is always the case right now, which is the realization one was seeking. It was never hidden but only not attended to because of the belief that mind needs to do something, and therein lies the importance of pointing out that nothing needs to be done.
It's not a prescription for doing nothing, but rather a pointer toward the fact that what is sought is already here.
Accurate, looking forward and backward paradox.
IOW, being "up sh*t creek without a paddle" is where you actually need to be. "Helpless and hopeless" is eggzakly what you should feel.caundsg.........................................
enigma, maybe half of what you post is caundsg. It's confusing for the seeker, and and tends to indicate that the part you get correct ........is.........conceptual repetition (and example would be what the philosopher John Searle calls the Chinese box, which I will not go in to, anybody can google it if interested).
The posts of runstill, therealfake, maxzprophet, Beingist, andrew and NBisH show they know more than you do. I'm not trying to change your mind, just trying to get others, which you are confusing, to get past you.
Briefly, here's my take. The part of ourselves which is connected to the Whole, is the sun. True self stands on the earth. What you call illusion is a cloudy sky, otherwise known as ego/personality/cultural self. So, there are obstructions to standing in the bright light of the sun. What you're saying is that there is no doing-time progression to get to the cloudless sky, anybody and everybody just has to wait for the sun to burn off the clouds. This is completely inaccurate. There are aspects of us that are directly already connected to the sun, attention and awareness. Working, specifically, with attention and awareness, can burn off the clouds, from the surface-of-the-earth side. This is a linear progression, a path in time.......that leads to the timeless state, which is accessible only in the present moment. It encompasses some of the traditional ways, Zen, Dzogchen, Taoism, Kabbalah, Sufism, Esoteric Christianity.....
sdp |
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Post by angela on Feb 4, 2012 6:08:44 GMT -5
sdp, you said this about captain enigma there: The posts of runstill, therealfake, maxzprophet, Beingist, andrew and NBisH show they know more than you do and my curiosity is about the basis upon which this question is poisted. are we sure knowledge is the way to go, if, in fact, those folks do have this knowing of which you speak? (ie: my curiosity has nothing to do with the folks mentioned. merely with the basis of the statement, which indicates that knowing is important here, somehow.) |
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Post by angela on Feb 4, 2012 6:17:27 GMT -5
also, sdp, you said this:
This is a linear progression, a path in time.......that leads to the timeless state
my experience is that all belief in that progression is another subtle trick of the mind to avoid THIS. believing in linear progression helps with creating and maintaining a to-do project, keeping a seeker engaged and doing all sorts of important tasks, complete with water marks to gauge progress and such.
now, in my experience exhaustion was vital, but it was really only a seeing clearly what was going on with my stuck belief in someday arriving somewhere else other than this..... then there was utterly giving up all hope and belief in the "there our there" or the palace of enlightenment i could get to eventually...... so, from one perspective it looked like angela gave up, in an event that had duration in time. but all that really happened was that THIS that was always here got to shine unobstructed by my constant, compulsive and obsessive desire to argue with it and get away in ways that looked particularly spiritual.
THIS has always been here. it is not a state and you can't get to where you already are by avoiding noticing this fact. beliefs in "getting there" are so subtle they're hard to even see clearly sometimes.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Feb 4, 2012 10:54:29 GMT -5
In answer to angela......... For me it's developing the quality of the conscious attention, that needs to be worked on.If I have to use methods to do that, then it's not a problem. If I dump a method for a while and then go back to it, that's also not a problem. Whatever it takes to exercise that ability to focus the attention consciously, is not a problem. Not doing anything, is a problem.[/color] |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Feb 4, 2012 10:56:40 GMT -5
...In answer to angela....... i'm finding that a lot of what has been happening in this small delusional universe is that i've gradually been becoming comfortable with the framework and terms of how a nondual-type of universe might be constructed. folks are pointing at the moon, but it's taken some time to discern what that thing is that is sticking in the air. just now it's beginning to dawn on me that it's a finger pointing somewhere. <slowly turning head in that direction>.. It's like I've just come to terms with the fact that i've been looking at a menu and now i can order some california rolls and saki and wait to actually taste the stuff. For example, I don't know how many times the concept of non-conceptual awareness has graced these synapses... it's a pretty funny concept as concepts go! and they all go! at the same time i've also noticed a shift in interest in things like meditation. it's not the same sort of interest as it was before when i did it. it's fun and not relegated to sitting. it happens. my interest in doing stuff (the seeky peep doing) has waned too. stuff just happens. there's no agenda. i welcome pokes and clarifications |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Feb 4, 2012 10:59:35 GMT -5
...In answer to angela.......... OMG I got lost. I thought I was on the short and sweet thread and then I read E post and found out fast.
SDP I know exactly what you are saying. My own experience of teachers is similar. Take Tony P. He had this cloud of the unknowing and wanted to know so he did many things and then one day he walks through the park and bingo. If you research Tony more you will see he spent years after that experience/revelation trying to get it back. I feel strongly that we have a significant difference between a experience vs a revelation.
I think the danger is when we chase after experience. The wanting more concept will play with you forever.
I don't think awakening is that hard or difficult. We all awaken during the day. The thing is most of us simply don't see it so we miss it. As TRF said it's a attention thing but not a forced type of attention from my own journey. What I do daily is to simply go on with my day accepting and letting the day happen. This simple practice of mine to allow and accept and not add to helps a lot in dropping the idea of a "me"
NBisH |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Feb 4, 2012 11:25:14 GMT -5
...In answer to angela........ The timeless nature of realization doesn't have anything to do with quantum physics. Time, and therefore movement and progression, are illusions formed in mind, and the realization of oneness is prior to mind and it's temporal and spatial illusions. Realization is timeless because it's not conceptual mind that realizes. I think everybody has had the 'experience' of realizing something timelessly, as in the classic 'AHA!' moment of the scientist, but the noticing of the timeless nature of this realization also has to be noticed timelessly, since there is not a linear 'realization experience' that mind can recall. What is seen in the realization is seen whole and complete in the moment of seeing, and there is no concept about it until mind forms one, but the linear concept is not the realization, only a conceptual reflection of it. When a teacher wants to talk about a realization, he must 'look again now', and conceptualize what is seen timelessly, using mind and it's concepts. The teacher calls it a realization because it is not a time based reflection/conceptualization. He might say there is only the present moment because he realizes the illusory nature of linear time and how it is formed in mind. It's clear that this realization cannot be at the other end of a progression in time, and is therefore available here and now only. Any seeming progression is only a conceptual idea formed in mind, and no actual movement toward or away from this truth is possible. This is why some teachers will say that their seeking was irrelevant and had nothing to do with the realization.So he might say there is no path that leads to truth as one never left it and can't get closer to it. Imagining that something has to be done in order to arrive at truth then becomes an obstacle to this timeless realization. Attention is not turned toward what is so, now, because it is believed that a few more lifetimes of horse stances are required. It doesn't mean that nothing can be done so much as the doing is not the meaningful progression that it appears to be. It also doesn't mean that doing is not necessary in order to exhaust the doing or that an exploration of illusion is not required in order to release the attachment to, and focus on, these illusions. There is work to be done, and the work may increase the potential of realization, but it cannot be said that one can get closer to truth, as one IS the truth one seeks, and it cannot be said that the work is required in order for realization to occur as it is such ideas of progress that actually prevent the turning toward this realization.
It cannot be said that any method, path or practice leads to realization, though it can be said that the appropriate path leads to the end of the seeking, which is the goal of the seeking. No seeking, as such, results in finding, only in the futility of the seeking. In this futility, attention is released from the seeking, and naturally turns toward what is always the case right now, which is the realization one was seeking. It was never hidden but only not attended to because of the belief that mind needs to do something, and therein lies the importance of pointing out that nothing needs to be done. It's not a prescription for doing nothing, but rather a pointer toward the fact that what is sought is already here. IOW, being "up sh*t creek without a paddle" is where you actually need to be. "Helpless and hopeless" is eggzakly what you should feel . The nonsense enigma posts just cancels out the good. Here's the whole thing in a nutshell. Ordinarily, we function through ego/cultural self. Even though there is a part of us that is connected with the Whole, we haven't realized, are not living through that Wholeness. Now, anybody content to live what enigma is talking about, have at it, happy trails. NBisH talks about Tony Parsons entering the state, and then it sometime later disappearing....meaning, he goes back to living through ego. He then searches and wishes to bring back the state. That's a real seeker...not giving up...not giving up until one's last breath....searching anywhere and everywhere to find out what that was, how to get back there...but it seems he gave up, and then accepted living through ego and remembering what it was like. You know what it's like to live through ego, the joys the tears, all the crap of life getting dumped on you. enigma seems to be saying (and many nondual teachers...writers and all)... that since all is One, it doesn't matter if we are stuck in ego, because ego is equal to everything else in the Wholeness, the Oneness. I'm saying that's crap. I'm saying that through genuine spiritual practices we can loosen the hold of ego-functioning, and find and live through the part of us that IS connected with the Wholeness. I'm saying never give up until you are actually living through that state..... Now, down the road, ego may or may not be simultaneously present. But then ego is not a problem, ego is no longer the center of gravity of your existence, the Wholeness is. Ego is then like a fly buzzing around you on a summer day. And, eventually, ego becomes like a nightmare you have awakened from. I just see people making progress......and then enigma posting contrary to their progress...and then them saying...on yea...you're right enigma, what was I thinking..... It's actually degrading. I'm just trying to be a warning buoy in the channel.......enigma...shallow water ahead...... Whether anybody listens, or not, is not my concern.........I can't do much more, but I can do that...... sdp |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Feb 4, 2012 11:42:18 GMT -5
also, sdp, you said this: This is a linear progression, a path in time.......that leads to the timeless state my experience is that all belief in that progression is another subtle trick of the mind to avoid THIS. believing in linear progression helps with creating and maintaining a to-do project, keeping a seeker engaged and doing all sorts of important tasks, complete with water marks to gauge progress and such. now, in my experience exhaustion was vital, but it was really only a seeing clearly what was going on with my stuck belief in someday arriving somewhere else other than this..... then there was utterly giving up all hope and belief in the "there our there" or the palace of enlightenment i could get to eventually...... so, from one perspective it looked like angela gave up, in an event that had duration in time. but all that really happened was that THIS that was always here got to shine unobstructed by my constant, compulsive and obsessive desire to argue with it and get away in ways that looked particularly spiritual. THIS has always been here. it is not a state and you can't get to where you already are by avoiding noticing this fact. beliefs in "getting there" are so subtle they're hard to even see clearly sometimes. Yes, THIS has always been here. But all I'm saying is not to settle for ego-functioning because of nondual-gibberish-speak. You actually can enter into the Wholeness, and then, all the pain and sorrow and the crap of life might still be present, IOW, ego-stuff, but something else is Present also. This something else is better than having a $million in the bank, better than a $Billion....... If you're there, all well and good. But I tend to believe something is wrong when I see error being taught. All I'm saying is there is always "further". The unknown always exists, if you think it doesn't.......well........I sorry for you........ I just hate to see anybody settle for.....less than is possible. But if they do, it can't really be helped. We have an internal compass that keeps us directed. enigma, generically, is like a giant magnet that throws one off course........ sdp |
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Post by exactamente on Feb 4, 2012 11:45:13 GMT -5
enigma, generically, is like a giant magnet that throws one off course........ sdp I'm sure enigma will agree with that one. ;D |
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Post by enigma on Feb 4, 2012 11:47:36 GMT -5
Briefly, here's my take. The part of ourselves which is connected to the Whole, is the sun. True self stands on the earth. What you call illusion is a cloudy sky, otherwise known as ego/personality/cultural self. So, there are obstructions to standing in the bright light of the sun. What you're saying is that there is no doing-time progression to get to the cloudless sky, anybody and everybody just has to wait for the sun to burn off the clouds. Gnaw, you're not actually hearing anything I'm saying, and the idea that there's a part of ourselves that's connected to the whole and the true self stands on the Earth, etc, tells me we don't have any common ground on which to base a discussion. |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Feb 4, 2012 11:53:09 GMT -5
Briefly, here's my take. The part of ourselves which is connected to the Whole, is the sun. True self stands on the earth. What you call illusion is a cloudy sky, otherwise known as ego/personality/cultural self. So, there are obstructions to standing in the bright light of the sun. What you're saying is that there is no doing-time progression to get to the cloudless sky, anybody and everybody just has to wait for the sun to burn off the clouds. Gnaw, you're not actually hearing anything I'm saying, and the idea that there's a part of ourselves that's connected to the whole and the true self stands on the Earth, etc, tells me we don't have any common ground on which to base a discussion. You're the rich kid who owns the ball and when he can't get his way takes it and goes home........back shortly........ |
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