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Post by enigma on Jan 19, 2012 20:01:29 GMT -5
I resonate with most of that, and it's what I've been talking about as well. The only way I can understand experiencing contrast without recognition is observing without thought, which is ATA. Hey, doesn't everyone do the ATA thing? I mean, these days, it's like the natural state, for me. Certainly my most predominant state. It seems to you like everybody does??  |
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Post by enigma on Jan 19, 2012 20:04:02 GMT -5
Well, Andrew is looking for a 100% good experience as a person. From my perspective, he doesn't understand the dualistic nature of ALL experiences, though he has some kind of a sense that such a thing is possible. To transcend good/bad doesn't mean getting all the good and leaving the bad behind, it means including it all and experiencing both the good and bad from a perspective wherein neither is a problem to be solved. What I mean by bending the stick over is observing ugliness and looking for a way to see it as beautiful, whereas actually beauty and ugliness simply remain as they are, each literally defining the other. I see your logic there. I think it's possible that both can coexist in the same space when referencing an experience. Meaning one form observes ugliness while at the same time another form observes beauty all in the same experience. I think there wasn't just "observing ugliness and looking for a way to see it as beautiful". There was also observing beauty and looking for a way to see it as ugliness. I doubt if anybody had to look very hard.  |
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Post by enigma on Jan 19, 2012 20:06:45 GMT -5
gypsywind, i was actually going to say something along the lines of what enigma just said to you. i lost my connection and the post got lost. i was fascinated, because when you first got here, you literally took special time to thank zd for his teachings, and express such gratitude that he was here to learn from. and then you called him.... a not nice name. i thought that was interesting. enigma said it with a bit more um, practice, than i have with these words..... but still. don't you find it interesting?  I've been losing my connection on a regular basis here. I don't much believe in coincidence any longer. I don't even recall what enigma just said to me. It's just not that interesting, or important. Good luck. Quite understandable. Did you also forget what Angela said by the time you responded to the post? |
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Post by enigma on Jan 19, 2012 20:08:44 GMT -5
I resonate with most of that, and it's what I've been talking about as well. The only way I can understand experiencing contrast without recognition is observing without thought, which is ATA. Okay, I see what you are saying there, but actually Im talking about a slightly different kind of experiencing contrast without recognition. From what I understand about ATA there is an observer observing 'the actual' or a 'unified field of being'. There is still a subtle recognizing happening. In this reality, bodyminds burn in the sun and shiver in the cold. In the non-contrast that Im talking about there is none of that... there is no experiencing as such, there is only expression. Which might sound terminally dull to some, but it all depends on our interests. It doesn't sound like a dull experience so much to me as a non-existent one. Hehe. |
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Post by enigma on Jan 19, 2012 20:19:49 GMT -5
Do you experiencing shivering when its cold? Do you experience pain when you stub your toe? Thats a dualistic reality. The cold weather and toe stubbing are manifested because of our interest in consciously experiencing contrast. When all interest is lost, the conditions will change. Circumstances mirror our state of being. Following this logic, Andrew, Jesus, then, preferred to be scourged and to die an ignominious death on a crucifix, just to experience contrast. Is that right? Well, it was either that or a white water rafting trip down the Nile.  |
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Post by enigma on Jan 19, 2012 20:29:08 GMT -5
Following this logic, Andrew, Jesus, then, preferred to be scourged and to die an ignominious death on a crucifix, just to experience contrast. Is that right? Im not quite sure that I would use the word 'preferred', but yes, I would say there was an interest in experiencing contrast. If we are on this earth, there is an interest in experiencing contrast. I'm open to whatever it is I'm not understanding about this, at least most of the time, but what I see clearly is experience itself 'erupting' out of nothingness as creation (and perception) itself, and it is nothing but imagination. It has no foundation outside of that, and so every experience is literally based on the imagining of it's opposite. Hencely, I see dualistic experience as inherent in ALL experiencing, and therefore unavoidable in any reality. |
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Post by enigma on Jan 19, 2012 20:36:39 GMT -5
Andrew, I've got to say I resonate with a lot of what you say. There's more to this than we know. Jesus may have 'accepted his fate, however, all the compassion, love, peace and healing he taught is something I believe we should aspire to. There's no way his message was simply to accept this, I refuse to accept that currently (haha). His message was also one of love for yourself and others. Yes, his message was about more than 'just accepting' this. Everything we talk about here is about much more than that. In that acceptance is forgiveness, Love and the Peace that passeth all understandingeth. THAT'S what it's about. |
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Post by enigma on Jan 19, 2012 20:38:09 GMT -5
in my experience, "this" isn't about feeling good or bad or any which way. it was by trying to squirm away from my "depression" that it stuck around..... what we resist, persists. there's something going on, underneath, some belief or story, that needs to be looked into. mainly, that story is some version of "this isn't it" or "i'm not it" or "i am going to awaken at some future date once i've perfected enough to see things clearly" and that kinda stuff. the argument with THIS, HERE takes a ton of forms. but it's all a big yelling NOOOOOOOO in some sense. liberation is when the arguments all stop. then what's left, is... well.... THIS. Zacklee. |
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Post by angela on Jan 19, 2012 20:41:31 GMT -5
in my experience, "this" isn't about feeling good or bad or any which way. it was by trying to squirm away from my "depression" that it stuck around..... what we resist, persists. there's something going on, underneath, some belief or story, that needs to be looked into. mainly, that story is some version of "this isn't it" or "i'm not it" or "i am going to awaken at some future date once i've perfected enough to see things clearly" and that kinda stuff. the argument with THIS, HERE takes a ton of forms. but it's all a big yelling NOOOOOOOO in some sense. liberation is when the arguments all stop. then what's left, is... well.... THIS. Thanks Angela, I feel like I know that. It's more a 'feeling'- just this lethargy and feeling rubbish and then I think my mind tried to tell me why. I guess I'll get there, just one of those days...ggrr By the way Umani is coming here in Feb and I'm trying to go. My first spiritual meeting, ha ha. Am excited. Her message is so simple and easy. i got your note, i am really grateful for the timing on that one! another woman on this forum had passed me the link to that note back in february of last year (maybe it was sharon? i can't recall) but i was so grateful for the clarity of her words at that time.... i'd been straining, and straining to figure out how to explain or understand THIS and it was a relief to me to really have that message sink in, lovingly, that hey.... there's nothing to get. it's just..... THIS. and i'll say this much. of COURSE you get it. you couldn't not get it. i find a lot of my women friends who i get to talk with about this, one of our core issues is this sort of deficiency because we can't make the more masculine teachings of all this stuff add up to our gut instincts about it. (not that that's not an issue for men also, it's just more common with my women friends....) but it's okay. i am happy to say that the more i stopped trying to make it make sense, and just sat still with THIS, oddly..... the mental clarity part became more and more obvious. i also never got a chance to comment on enigma's assessment that toward the end of the storyline, the differences between genders start to blur.... i find that to be the case as well, and it's echoed in a lot of spiritual literature. you go the path of the intellect, and in the end it's heart that does the balancing. and if you go the path of the heart, in the end, the mental clarity does the balancing. it's kinda cool, really. of course, that's a broad generalization, as everyone walks the pathless path in their own ways and means. but the beauty of seeing confirmation of your own ways and means in other folks and teachers can't be underestimated as a nice sort of.... guidepost that you're not a crazybird. ((oh, as an aside, in a few days i'm going to start calling THIS lunroepleagug or turtledove. just to shake things up a bit. )) |
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Post by Beingist on Jan 19, 2012 21:29:03 GMT -5
Ok here's a strange question, but I figured I've embarassed myself and been honest enough on this forum not to care anymore, here goes: I've read before, the reason we need to sleep is to give our soul's a rest, to go back to our true nature. Well smthing I've noticed is that when I get a good night's sleep (rare with my little ones) I wake up very much identified with this personality and feeling 'down'. Now I know what there is to know, stay with the observer and know that it's not me. Am trying but My mind is telling me stories and I feel rubbish. Just as I think I've come far, it's almost like- 'ha, you thought you were awakening? '. It's so fruatrating. Ok this probably has nothing to do with the contents of the thread but I think being on the other side of the world, I miss all the juicy chats until I wake up and it's too late. I just feel that when I stop to look am ok but then just get sucked back into this sort of 'depression'. I wanted to address this, as I understand plenty about 'depression', as it seems I spent the first forty years of my life in such a state, and since I was basically raised by women, I understand that humans are emotional beings. After reading and watching all the stuff I have, I came to a conclusion some time ago, that there is conscious thought, and subconscious thought. Conscious thought is, of course, that thought that we're conscious of, while subconscious thought rules the emotions. It seems to me that we are born with subconscious thought, as it's primarily what controls the regulated bodily functions (heart beat, digestion, etc.), but I think that over time, generally speaking, we pack our repetitive conscious thoughts (perhaps 'beliefs', around these parts) down into our subconscious, so that they end up ruling our emotions. I relate this sort of storage unit of subconscious thought and emotions to what Eckhart Tolle called the "pain-body". Now, one can be perfectly clear of conscious thought, and think they're right as rain, but in my experience, it is in just those moments when alas! up rises a depressed state. Addicted to the notion of cause/effect, our mind may search to figure out what it is that causes this state, but regardless of its cause, it nonetheless needs to be released, and Tolle's pain-body method has helped me immensely in emptying my quite large storage unit of negativity. In my case, it has indubitably led to greater clarity, and a significant amount of peace in my life, which, from an early age, was highly troubled, to say the least. That said, and in light of what you express above, I'm wont to suggest that if you feel depressed (or worried, or anxious, or anything else), let yourself feel depressed. However, it is important, I think, to stress that what you feel isn't What You are, hence, don't identify with it, and don't allow your conscious thoughts to continue to feed it--iow, just watch your thoughts, regardless of what you're feeling at that moment. In my experience, it really is like a mother comforting a screaming child. I'm not claiming to be a teacher here, or anything, but I do think that on this forum, emotional work isn't stressed as much as awareness, and yet, it is the negative emotions that keep us from being in a state of peace. Therapists try to dig out emotions from their patients, so that they can be released, and though I'm not one to tout psychotherapy, it can be successful, at least to a point. The key is in being aware--both in 'noticing' thoughts (to borrow E.'s term), and in 'noticing' emotions. But just as it is beneficial to allow our thoughts to arise, so it is to allow our emotions to rise, and be released. Just wanted to throw that out there. |
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Post by Beingist on Jan 19, 2012 21:30:07 GMT -5
Hey, doesn't everyone do the ATA thing? I mean, these days, it's like the natural state, for me. Certainly my most predominant state. It seems to you like everybody does?? Well, everyone here, on this forum.  |
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Post by enigma on Jan 19, 2012 22:11:00 GMT -5
It seems to you like everybody does?? Well, everyone here, on this forum. I would say many here have been working on it and the degree of success varies. |
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Post by esponja on Jan 20, 2012 0:01:14 GMT -5
in my experience, "this" isn't about feeling good or bad or any which way. it was by trying to squirm away from my "depression" that it stuck around..... what we resist, persists. there's something going on, underneath, some belief or story, that needs to be looked into. mainly, that story is some version of "this isn't it" or "i'm not it" or "i am going to awaken at some future date once i've perfected enough to see things clearly" and that kinda stuff. the argument with THIS, HERE takes a ton of forms. but it's all a big yelling NOOOOOOOO in some sense. liberation is when the arguments all stop. then what's left, is... well.... THIS. Zacklee. Yes, I do have thoughts 'of this can't be it' I guess. The difficulty is that it arises as a feeling and the thoughts come later. So the conscious thoughts I can do something about. Am not too sure about the feelings. Yes maybe I really need to sit with it as you and others suggest. It's just getting out of that habbit. Also am interested to know what people think of medical reasons, i.e hormonal imbalances, low vitamin level or anything else? |
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Post by esponja on Jan 20, 2012 0:04:10 GMT -5
Thanks Angela, I feel like I know that. It's more a 'feeling'- just this lethargy and feeling rubbish and then I think my mind tried to tell me why. I guess I'll get there, just one of those days...ggrr By the way Umani is coming here in Feb and I'm trying to go. My first spiritual meeting, ha ha. Am excited. Her message is so simple and easy. i got your note, i am really grateful for the timing on that one! another woman on this forum had passed me the link to that note back in february of last year (maybe it was sharon? i can't recall) but i was so grateful for the clarity of her words at that time.... i'd been straining, and straining to figure out how to explain or understand THIS and it was a relief to me to really have that message sink in, lovingly, that hey.... there's nothing to get. it's just..... THIS. and i'll say this much. of COURSE you get it. you couldn't not get it. i find a lot of my women friends who i get to talk with about this, one of our core issues is this sort of deficiency because we can't make the more masculine teachings of all this stuff add up to our gut instincts about it. (not that that's not an issue for men also, it's just more common with my women friends....) but it's okay. i am happy to say that the more i stopped trying to make it make sense, and just sat still with THIS, oddly..... the mental clarity part became more and more obvious. i also never got a chance to comment on enigma's assessment that toward the end of the storyline, the differences between genders start to blur.... i find that to be the case as well, and it's echoed in a lot of spiritual literature. you go the path of the intellect, and in the end it's heart that does the balancing. and if you go the path of the heart, in the end, the mental clarity does the balancing. it's kinda cool, really. of course, that's a broad generalization, as everyone walks the pathless path in their own ways and means. but the beauty of seeing confirmation of your own ways and means in other folks and teachers can't be underestimated as a nice sort of.... guidepost that you're not a crazybird. ((oh, as an aside, in a few days i'm going to start calling THIS lunroepleagug or turtledove. just to shake things up a bit. )) Yes, think that part in the middle is particularly true. |
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Post by esponja on Jan 20, 2012 0:09:43 GMT -5
Ok here's a strange question, but I figured I've embarassed myself and been honest enough on this forum not to care anymore, here goes: I've read before, the reason we need to sleep is to give our soul's a rest, to go back to our true nature. Well smthing I've noticed is that when I get a good night's sleep (rare with my little ones) I wake up very much identified with this personality and feeling 'down'. Now I know what there is to know, stay with the observer and know that it's not me. Am trying but My mind is telling me stories and I feel rubbish. Just as I think I've come far, it's almost like- 'ha, you thought you were awakening? '. It's so fruatrating. Ok this probably has nothing to do with the contents of the thread but I think being on the other side of the world, I miss all the juicy chats until I wake up and it's too late. I just feel that when I stop to look am ok but then just get sucked back into this sort of 'depression'. I wanted to address this, as I understand plenty about 'depression', as it seems I spent the first forty years of my life in such a state, and since I was basically raised by women, I understand that humans are emotional beings. After reading and watching all the stuff I have, I came to a conclusion some time ago, that there is conscious thought, and subconscious thought. Conscious thought is, of course, that thought that we're conscious of, while subconscious thought rules the emotions. It seems to me that we are born with subconscious thought, as it's primarily what controls the regulated bodily functions (heart beat, digestion, etc.), but I think that over time, generally speaking, we pack our repetitive conscious thoughts (perhaps 'beliefs', around these parts) down into our subconscious, so that they end up ruling our emotions. I relate this sort of storage unit of subconscious thought and emotions to what Eckhart Tolle called the "pain-body". Now, one can be perfectly clear of conscious thought, and think they're right as rain, but in my experience, it is in just those moments when alas! up rises a depressed state. Addicted to the notion of cause/effect, our mind may search to figure out what it is that causes this state, but regardless of its cause, it nonetheless needs to be released, and Tolle's pain-body method has helped me immensely in emptying my quite large storage unit of negativity. In my case, it has indubitably led to greater clarity, and a significant amount of peace in my life, which, from an early age, was highly troubled, to say the least. That said, and in light of what you express above, I'm wont to suggest that if you feel depressed (or worried, or anxious, or anything else), let yourself feel depressed. However, it is important, I think, to stress that what you feel isn't What You are, hence, don't identify with it, and don't allow your conscious thoughts to continue to feed it--iow, just watch your thoughts, regardless of what you're feeling at that moment. In my experience, it really is like a mother comforting a screaming child. I'm not claiming to be a teacher here, or anything, but I do think that on this forum, emotional work isn't stressed as much as awareness, and yet, it is the negative emotions that keep us from being in a state of peace. Therapists try to dig out emotions from their patients, so that they can be released, and though I'm not one to tout psychotherapy, it can be successful, at least to a point. The key is in being aware--both in 'noticing' thoughts (to borrow E.'s term), and in 'noticing' emotions. But just as it is beneficial to allow our thoughts to arise, so it is to allow our emotions to rise, and be released. Just wanted to throw that out there. Thanks B. I do try to notice the thoughts and feelings but find that I can't always do that until after the event and sometimes noticing it makes me feel worse. Like Angela says; 'why arn't I through with this or something similar'. I can see that I need to adress these beliefs. |
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